Need opinon. Vintage Altec 604 or Jenzen-Illuminator

[buffedupboy]

Hello everyone!

First post on this wonderful forum, so be gentle! I'm a newbie audiophile (won't even call myself one). I've been toying with the idea of building my own tube amps and speakers for years, and well...... one day you wake up and there is no better time than now.

I have a KT-88 tube amp with gold lion tubes and they are powering a set of System Audio floor standers. I find that I have reached the limit of the speakers and they are not truly bringing out the best of the amp. I don't have an enclosed room, and I listen to jazz (mostly vocals and trumpets) the whole day...... joys of working from home.

So, before I jump in and build a 300B, I want to build a pair of speakers that will make the amp worth building. Naturally, cost is an issue, so I've narrowed my choice down to the Jenzen Illuminator or Jenzen Next. However, a friend who I regard as a true audiophile is trying to convince me to get a vintage Altec 604 and if I really wanted to, I could just build the cabinet for those. I think the price will work out to be the same. In an ideal world I would just buy a pair of Westminsters and call it a day....

I have no background in electronics/ electricals/ audio. But buying the altecs and butchering them for the driver and crossover seems like cheating to me. But then, the Jenzens are going to be a mystery until they are built, and of course will not have any resale value (although selling the speakers will probably not happen as I'll rather give them away to a relative).

So, all advise needed so I can move forward to the fun part without going "what if" the whole day!

Thanks,
Sean

 

[Zen Mod]

can you find Altec 604 on Troel's site ?



read this :

http://tinyurl.com/jw5jno8

having solved xover issue with Altec is crucial to even begin

however , I'm expecting ( having experience with big coaxes ) that Altec sound could bring more fun

 

[buffedupboy]

Oh Good, thanks!!! Now you just made my headache even bigger! lol.... Man, going down the great plains route may be out of my reach though, not sure.... but how would you rate the great plains 604 build vs both the jenzens I mentioned?

That article is seriously great thanks.

 

[ticovski]

When you buy 604 don't forget this mod:

Wood Horn

 

[kfringe]

I have a KT-88 tube amp with gold lion tubes

Neither of the Jenzen builds you mentioned are terribly well suited to tube amps. Some stonking big KT88 amps might be fine, but they'd be a very bad match to most 300b amps.

The Altecs have the benefit of having decades of DIY thrown at them, wide amp compatibility, and some well documented crossovers that make them almost tolerable. Their three big issues tends to be a a roughness from 1000 to 2000hz due to a poor handover to the HF horn, LF response that doesn't do much justice to modern recordings, and a steeply limited treble by modern standards. That said, you'll pry my pair of 604-8g out of my cold, dead hands. I enjoy them immensely.

If the problems sound like deal breakers, you might want to look a bit more at the projects Troels lists under "High Efficiency Constructions." If the problems don't sound that bad to you, an Altec Duplex project is straightforward and offers endless possibilities for tinkering. Those are both strong advantages for a beginner.

 

[GM]

FYI, the GPA 604 S3 with its larger horn solves some of the 1-2k Hz and extreme HF issues and if you can afford a large enough cab, then the few folks I know of that listen to modern recordings of all manner of music haven't noted any displeasure with them down to 32 Hz.

That said, while 300Bs tend to make the HF divine, the bass will be anything but 'tight', 'accurate' at best, so can't recommend it unless the cab design is either limited to the speech BW or BLH loaded.

GM

 

[GM]

6moons audio reviews: Stephæn's Altec 604 Dream Speaker

FYI, there's at least one misleading typographical & editing error, but Jay didn't bother to tell me that my responses to him WRT to what I thought was a cab design for him would be chopped up and used unedited in a magazine article of someone else's DIY project, I had to learn about it when a link was posted to it on a forum.

GM

 

[Zen Mod]

.........That said, you'll pry my pair of 604-8g out of my cold, dead hands........

FYI, there's at least one misleading typographical & editing error, but Jay didn't bother to tell me that my responses to him WRT to what I thought was a cab design for him would be chopped up and used unedited in a magazine article of someone else's DIY project, I had to learn about it when a link was posted to it on a forum.

GM

not having experience with Altec 604 , I didn't read that article going too much in technicalities .... enjoyed more in amount of enthusiasm ;
besides that , I really have no further knowledge of linked project ....... except well known fact that you helped to bunch of ppl

though ...... in case that someone throw me in da head with pair of even oldest 604 in existence , I wouldn't resist temptation .....

 

[GM]

IMNSHO, the oldest are by far the best overall as they have a proper 1 kHz horn, ultralight woofer diaphragm and ~time correct XO with the trade-off being that the top and bottom are too rolled off by today's standards and severely limited Xmax [~0.4 mm IIRC], but the rest from ~60-5 kHz...... 'to die for' with a period correct 2A3 or similar and if you have a period correct amp with up to 20 ohms of adjustable bass, treble tone controls, you can have it ~flat [including BSC] from 40-15 kHz, enough for the majority of recorded music.

GM

 

[buffedupboy]

This is what I love about this forum! Unlike the other hobbies I'm into, you guys actually share your knowledge and information!

Ok, so I'm sold on the 604. But Unsure whether to get parts new or scavenged from vintage. I think ultimately it may be the cost difference that will swing this decision. My loyal friend has been steadfast in his opinion that I get the vintage set as according to him the new drivers/ cross will not be able to replicate the vintage parts. But from what I have read, the new parts are actually an improvement over the vintage.Thoughts on this?

 

[kfringe]

I think ultimately it may be the cost difference that will swing this decision.

I'd make the decision based entirely on cost and condition of the drivers. If you can find a vintage pair that are cheap and excellent, just buy them. Measure them (nothing vintage resembles any spec you'll find online), build a simple box, put together a new crossover, and play music.

If you can't tell if the drivers are excellent (ie: you have neither the knowledge or opportunity to test them), you're better off buying new from Bill at GPA. Vintage drivers often need a whole variety of service done to them to make them perform to spec, and buying something that needs repair might turn out to be an expensive hassle. Shipping these things around is not cheap. That's the kind of thing that can easily derail a first DIY project.

GM points out that the GPA 604-8H-III has just about the best 604 horn going right now. I'm a bit more partial to the bass response and alnico yumminess of the GPA 604E Series II.

Another option that I haven't heard is GPA's 212. It's significantly cheaper, uses a significantly smaller box, and seems much easier to tame with a crossover. Until someone who's listened to them checks in, though, I'd be a little concerned about the treble on those.

 

[GM]

Ok, so I'm sold on the 604. But Unsure whether to get parts new or scavenged from vintage.

If you can find an AlNiCo pair locally used only in a home HIFI app, then something to consider, but otherwise...... I don't recommend it as there's too many shysters trying to capitalize on the Altec name and even if you luck up on some that appear good, the magnets may need draining/recharging, which few businesses do anymore for the public and even then they may not wind up either matched and/or up to spec; plus, HF diaphragms can look good, but be bad and that's another ~$200 if living in the USA.........

Ceramics should never need draining/re-magnetizing, but some say they sound too analytic/’dry’, but I’ve fooled some folks into saying they’re AlNiCo by inserting a few ohms in series to make them a bit ‘richer’/’lush’ sounding, so have a hard time justifying the extra cost/potential hassle of AlNiCo unless driven with a high output impedance tube amp.

All that said, since you live in the Far East where the majority of vintage Altec, etc., equipment has migrated to in recent decades, you may have much more to choose from as well as a decent supply of ‘new old stock’ [NOS] and/or used OEM parts still in good condition, though the prices in local currency I’ve seen are all really high, way more than new, so no bargains for us Americans.

You may want to consider getting 605As, which tend to sell for less; these use the 416 woofer and 806 HF driver Vs the 604’s 515/802 combo, so has a bit more low end for a given speaker alignment and a better choice overall if using a SS amp, at least for the lows, though has less HF efficiency.

Here’s some that may be a good buy, though shipping may make them too expensive and/or already sold and the ad wasn’t updated: The Altec User's Board Free Marketplace ! - Page 2

If you luck up on some 605Bs, there’s some rare ones [if still OEM] with 515 woofers [some folks claim they all are], so really 604E……….. Easy way to tell is motor size, the 604 is much larger.

BTW, ’64 was a good year, Altec speaker wise…….. The main thing is to be very leery of ~1977 till the late ‘80s drivers unless they’ve been completely rebuilt by GPA as QA went progressively away to so bad that UREI had to make themselves an authorized Altec Service Center just to ensure they had good ones for their monitors till they sold out to JBL, which of course switched them to all JBL systems; and a by then gutted Altec used up stock to satisfy the Japanese market’s line of ‘Altec’ studio monitors. One could do a lot worse than a pair of 6041s: https://www.google.com/search?q=alt...v&sa=X&ei=edZuU4v4KMOjyASC9IKoDg&ved=0CCoQsAQ

GM

 

[kfringe]

What GM said. Do that.

Pay extra attention to his suggestion about the 605a. They're underrated by the cultists, so the price is significantly cheaper. While you trade off some efficiency and high-end subtlety, they have a very pleasing tone.

 

[multi]

On Ebay vintage Altec prices are over the top both 604's and 515's. I found you can buy the 515L from Great planes Audio for fraction of the prices on Ebay.
I have horns using 515E with JBL 2452 compression drivers. Advantage the 515 has over the 604, the 515 is overdamped excellent for even 300b Se with the low damping factor.
I have some Chinese copies of the 2452 and original 2452 very difficult to hear any differnce and very little when frequency sweeps are done.
Phil

 

[hottattoo]

burredupboy:

Since you are "new" to the altec 604 game you have got to be VERY careful as GM has mentioned. A friend of mine paid a lot of money for a pair of "mint" 604E drivers that turned out to be anything but. There were some bad hidden repairs to those drivers that cost him lots of extra money sending these drivers to Great Plains Audio for a total rebuild. Now the rebuilt drivers sound great in a custom made 12cu' cabinet. That would spell disaster if that happened to you( shipping cost alone ).

If you are hell bent on the 604 driver then go for it. It is a great sounding driver.

However, if I were you living in the far east I would look towards a good midrange compression driver plus a horn and a Fostex or similar tweeter. That would cover most of your midrange and your high frequency and would give you more choices for your bass/mid bass cabinet driver combination. This would also allow you a way to assemble a great speaker system piece by piece as your budget allows and be well over 104+ db for good SET amplifier usage. Check out John Inlow's site for some ideas along with Dr. Bruce Edgars posts on the subject. Just my 2 cents.

 

[hottattoo]

buffedupboy,

Sorry for the typo of your name. I am the " burredupboy".

 

[buffedupboy]

Thank you all for the comments. My ship is set, you can't steer me in another direction other than the 604s, but I do appreciate the advise and suggestions though.

I've heeded your advise to buy new from GPA, now I'm just waiting on their quotation and prices. Can't decide between the[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]604-8H-III or the 604E Series II.

My emotional self is telling me to go with the 604 for the Alnico but my rational self is telling me the 8H is the improved and better choice.Any thoughts on that?

 

[GM]

Join the Altec User's forum I linked to for the 605s, IIRC there's at least one member with the S3 and older AlniCo models.

GM

 

[kfringe]

My emotional self is telling me to go with the 604 for the Alnico but my rational self is telling me the 8H is the improved and better choice.Any thoughts on that?

Keep in mind that there's a hefty price difference between the two. You'll pay for the alnico.

The 8h has a better horn and a much smaller offset between the drivers, making its response a bit smoother through the vocal range and more extended in the treble. The Alnico has (to my ears) a better way with subtlety and detail, and the sectoral horn sounds a bit more natural to my ears -- but the differences are small.

The alnico does have a response that's a bit easier to work with in a simple cabinet. If you plan to put them against the wall or in a corner, you can flip a coin for the decision. If you plan to have them out in the room, the alnico is going to be a little more balanced on the low end with the stock GPA crossover. 160 liters of bass reflex will give you a pretty flat response down to about 50hz.

GM will probably have a way around any of those differences. He's forgotten more about Altec than I've ever learned. Ignore his advice at your peril.

 

[picowallspeaker]

Horns ? Why ?
Put a serious high efficiency midrange such the Audax PR 17 MO
and a modern dome with 96 dB/W/m.
Any 15" would be happy then!
And think of making a sub: do the Altec woofers play bass !?!?