1. Having spent many years studying human performance and preferences, it is all too easy to falsely assume "everybody" loves, say, ear-damaging thumping music and maybe a classier, subdued thumping might be successful. It might be a current fad and a few blogs about ear damage and public sentiment might shift.
2. There is a large literature on frequencies for transmitting speech (for example by Bell Labs telephone researchers) and I suppose studies of speech interference.
3. For sure there is large literature on hearing damage (but more preaching than actual trustworthy empirical evidence). Ummm, wouldn't want to work in a place that! You can see a lot of rock musicians wearing ear plugs today (esp. the kind designed for musicians and individually molded).
So the question remains, how to have happy dancers and happy chatters.
Ben
2. There is a large literature on frequencies for transmitting speech (for example by Bell Labs telephone researchers) and I suppose studies of speech interference.
3. For sure there is large literature on hearing damage (but more preaching than actual trustworthy empirical evidence). Ummm, wouldn't want to work in a place that! You can see a lot of rock musicians wearing ear plugs today (esp. the kind designed for musicians and individually molded).
So the question remains, how to have happy dancers and happy chatters.
Ben
the human body conducts more bass through the bones than it does hear it with its ears (fletcher-munson equal loudness curves, etc). Given how long bass reinforcement systems have been around and how many standards keep increasing, i really doubt that a physical element ot the musical experience is a passing fad. its only been what, merely 40-50 years? As soon as drivers and amps could pump out bass, recordings have been getting deeper in their response.
Speech measurements only go down to 200 hz, and only go up to 8khz.
Rock musicians (and djs and conductors) certainly have hearing losses, but not in the bass range.
Here's an idea, run the subs 15-20 dB louder than the mains, and dont push the mains over 105dB(A). 105 is still too loud, 99 is still too loud, but the average audience generated noise floor at a well attended dance event will require louder than living room levels if anyone would like to enjoy the music over the chatter.
Speech measurements only go down to 200 hz, and only go up to 8khz.
Rock musicians (and djs and conductors) certainly have hearing losses, but not in the bass range.
Here's an idea, run the subs 15-20 dB louder than the mains, and dont push the mains over 105dB(A). 105 is still too loud, 99 is still too loud, but the average audience generated noise floor at a well attended dance event will require louder than living room levels if anyone would like to enjoy the music over the chatter.
Ben,
The "ear plugs" are often "in ear monitors", and can replace floor monitors.
Because of the exterior noise attenuation, in ear monitors can be run at low SPL levels even in a loud stage environment, but they have the potential to go louder than stage monitors because they are not limited by feedback, so they often are run just as loud or even louder.
In ears do clean up the house sound considerably, a dozen stage monitors each peaking around 125 dB pointed at the back stage wall make an awful racket, getting rid of them can allow the house sound to be run cleanly at around 10 dB (half as loud) lower levels.
In ear rigs can be far cheaper than floor monitors, and take up little room.
The drawback from a provider standpoint is musicians don't generally want to stick a rental unit in their ear, though disposable foam covers make that a little more palatable.
Many pro bands members now own their own IEMs, at the higher levels of touring, IEMs have all but replaced floor monitors, except for the (typically) aging musicians unwilling to change from their established ways.
Art
I probably am biting of more than I can chew but I'm the only one in town wanting to do this at a cheaper price, as I said Ive never done this before.
I should have some prices on the danley tops soon.
Would anyone take a stab at wether 2 Othorns per side would be enough? Or a comparison of output to the bob audio dual 18" bandpass boxes. I would love to build the Othorns however I'm still trying to figure out if its worth it.
I also found out the capacity of the outdoors part is 650 which could mean less system required.
I should have some prices on the danley tops soon.
Would anyone take a stab at wether 2 Othorns per side would be enough? Or a comparison of output to the bob audio dual 18" bandpass boxes. I would love to build the Othorns however I'm still trying to figure out if its worth it.
I also found out the capacity of the outdoors part is 650 which could mean less system required.
Capacity never really means anything. You just have to figure our what spl you are needing and what distances to cover. I probably could have told you some of the DSL prices so you know what to try and get them for.
I have not seen the dealers prices yet but I would assume they are going to be more expensive then I would guess. BUT most of OZ prices are that way.
I would think that 140db from 31hz and up should do you just fine for outdoors. I dont think they will be a better value subwoofer by a long shot. Especially at the 550 price.
I dont know what Bob Audio uses for his components in the dual 18 cabinet but you can compare the single 25hz ported 21" cabinet Ricci has done also and the Othorn has 7dbs from 31hz and up.
What amps are you going to be using to push the subs?
I have not seen the dealers prices yet but I would assume they are going to be more expensive then I would guess. BUT most of OZ prices are that way.
I would think that 140db from 31hz and up should do you just fine for outdoors. I dont think they will be a better value subwoofer by a long shot. Especially at the 550 price.
I dont know what Bob Audio uses for his components in the dual 18 cabinet but you can compare the single 25hz ported 21" cabinet Ricci has done also and the Othorn has 7dbs from 31hz and up.
What amps are you going to be using to push the subs?
Well at a guess I would say the sh96ho will be 7-9k each, so possibly doable.
As for subs, are you saying two per side would probably be enough?
550 for the driver but then theres wood, finnishings, handles, paint and a cabinet maker to help me so I put an estimate of $1700 per box. 7db is quite significant Even if 3db over the bob boxes would justify halving the subs. As for amps I hope to use real lab fp10000q for them.
As for subs, are you saying two per side would probably be enough?
550 for the driver but then theres wood, finnishings, handles, paint and a cabinet maker to help me so I put an estimate of $1700 per box. 7db is quite significant Even if 3db over the bob boxes would justify halving the subs. As for amps I hope to use real lab fp10000q for them.
You should go out and gets some actual measurements of your place. Send as much info as you can to DSL and I am sure Ivan will tell you what he think will work for that situation. Everyone is different in regards to how much low end they need/want. I myself like using something like SM80 and a TH412 or if using the SH96HO's then BC415's is what I would use. That being said I think four 21's and you should be on par.
I believe the Othorn uses 3 sheets of ply. 120 each if using marine ply. PLUS add in the drivers for say 600 each including shipping. I dont know who will build the boxes for you but CNC can get expensive. It is not hard to build for a cabinet maker. He should have all tools already. So 600 for each cabinet for a professional to build seems still high to me. BUT I have built a lot of cabinets and realize it is not that hard.
I do understand you wanting to have someone else do the building though.
The Othorn using the SW150 4ohm will take about 127v or close to 4000watts. This is before any compression or losses. So a 5000watt or more capable amp could be used to get the most out of each cabinet. Even if playing these at very safe levels they still can take 2500watts before any losses. I dont know what their rms compression is but you COULD use a bigger amp than the 10Q for subs.
I believe the Othorn uses 3 sheets of ply. 120 each if using marine ply. PLUS add in the drivers for say 600 each including shipping. I dont know who will build the boxes for you but CNC can get expensive. It is not hard to build for a cabinet maker. He should have all tools already. So 600 for each cabinet for a professional to build seems still high to me. BUT I have built a lot of cabinets and realize it is not that hard.
I do understand you wanting to have someone else do the building though.
The Othorn using the SW150 4ohm will take about 127v or close to 4000watts. This is before any compression or losses. So a 5000watt or more capable amp could be used to get the most out of each cabinet. Even if playing these at very safe levels they still can take 2500watts before any losses. I dont know what their rms compression is but you COULD use a bigger amp than the 10Q for subs.
Looking at the BC21SW152-4, the AES rating is 2000 watts.
Although it can easily handle 4000+peaks, with the limited dynamic range of some EDM being less than 3 dB, a long term RMS level limiter should probably not go much over half the AES rating (6 dB crest factor pink noise), around 64 volts.
A peak limiter setting of 127 V would be fine.
Art, am I correct to assume you mean one(1) premium loaded keystone against the four srx728? Also as a sidenote, will this driver work good in the keystone design? It is the only b&c 18" I can find for a good price around here.
B&C 18SW100 18" LF driver from B & C 523.55
Sorry for digging up a kinda old(but interesting) thread... But how did this project turn out?
The fact he(as far as I understood it) heard them without a side by side comparison, and were probably/possibly not aware of the circumstances(poor setup, room modes, etc etc) there could be a lot of factors not favouring the 728 rig. Let's see what he says about it before assuming anything. The srx line is supposed to be good cabs, are you sure you even have to replace them. A dcx/deq or dbx drpa rig with proper hands behind can work wonders for cabs. Then you could have a lot of money and time on your hands for some dsl synergy horns
No, I meant an 18SW115-4 loaded Keystone can keep up to a pair of JBL SRX 728, four 728 would be about 6 dB louder than a single Keystone.
The BC 18SW100 should be OK, like the 18TBW100, it should be slightly more sensitive, but slightly less ultimate output.
In either case, I'd go for the 4 ohm version, hard to find amps that don't cost a fortune that can swing 3000+ watts at 8 ohms.
Thanks for the clarification.
What about running two 8ohm cabs in parallell on each side of an amp? Or would you recommend one cab per channel? Thomann seem to only store the 8 ohm model... I could get the 8 ohm version for less than half the price than the sw115 from bluearan, which would land at around 1000$ on this side of the pond... you don't know anyone supplying b&c for great prices in Europe?
How would the driver compare to the 18sw115 in the keystone? According to the keystone thread the tbw is about 2.2 db lower than the sw115, would this make the sw100 how many dB's lower than the sw115? 3? Or were you making the "slightly more sensitive, slightly lower output" comparison between the tbw and the 115, leaving the tbw and sw100 equal in output?
Sorry for the hijack!
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1)If you have an amp that can do around 6000 watts per side at 2.5- 4 ohms, fine.
2)I'd recommend powering the cabinets appropriately for the output desired.
3) No.
4) Similar.
As you have noticed, both drivers are very similar other than the magnet material.
5) Voltage would depend on the type of program material and which impedance driver you purchase. If you are running program with only 3 dB crest factor, 750-1000 watts, if you are running music with 6 dB crest factor, 1500 watts, 12 dB crest factor, around 3000 watts per driver.
Thank you for the answer Art!
Do you think the Sanway FP14000 clone http://www.china-sanway.com/Product.asp?BigClassName=FP-new%20series%20Switching%20Power%20Amplifier would have sufficient power to power up two B&C-SW100(8 ohm) loaded cabs per side? My main concern is that I cant seem to understand how they walk around the problem that they are running of a 10-16A/220-240v(EU) AC Circuit, which can't deliver close to what the output specs they claim are... Are there any magic going on here?
The problem is that it seem to be a tough duty to find 4 ohm models for good prices in europe, so the two cab per side of a powerful amp seem to be my best choice here. And the Sanway are available at a very interesting price.
Do you think the Sanway FP14000 clone http://www.china-sanway.com/Product.asp?BigClassName=FP-new%20series%20Switching%20Power%20Amplifier would have sufficient power to power up two B&C-SW100(8 ohm) loaded cabs per side? My main concern is that I cant seem to understand how they walk around the problem that they are running of a 10-16A/220-240v(EU) AC Circuit, which can't deliver close to what the output specs they claim are... Are there any magic going on here?
The problem is that it seem to be a tough duty to find 4 ohm models for good prices in europe, so the two cab per side of a powerful amp seem to be my best choice here. And the Sanway are available at a very interesting price.
Not familiar with the amp or it's specifications. Most recent amp specifications don't reflect sustained output, only peak output, or output for a time duration that may not cover more than a few cycles of low bass.
Current limiting can keep amplifiers from popping breakers if sustained power exceeds some time constant. Playing music with high peak to average the current limiting may not kick in, but low sustained bass notes may trigger the limiting. Not magic, and it may sound OK or not, depending on how long the constant is, several seconds is good, 50 milliseconds would only cover two cycles at 50 Hz.
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