This reason this occurs is because we are dealing with people's minds, that's one, very key link in the chain. Just by changing mental focus one can make something 'sound different' - everyone has scores of anecdotes about this ...
However, it's easy then to get tangled up in classic deductive fallacy world ...
1. People hear different situations sounding different
2. People can be convinced that identical things sound different
3. Therefore, all situations where things sound different are actually identical in sound
What is the magic criteria that determines scientific knowledge as being 'hard' ...
This is 'cargo cult' territory: there is a real phenomenon, people make up crazy explanations, exploit the 'lust', 'fear', etc, for their own ends ... but that doesn't void the actuality of the phenomenon - true understanding comes further down the track ...
Evidence comes forth through having the right equipment, mindset, and compensation for doing the research. Hobbyists may have only one of those requirements true ...
My key claim is that ordinary audio systems can be modified, reverse engineered, to eliminate weaknesses that degrade the sound, so that it almost always sounds like boring hifi - and therefore are not convincing, realistic. So, if you wished to falsify that claim there is a simple experiment: get two, identical, "ordinary" systems which in DBT are judged to be inseparable, and relatively mediocre sounding. Then, I apply my 'pixie dust',
, to one version - and we do the DBT again. Obviously it would be easy to make that sample sound different, but if at least 50% of the listeners considered that the words "convincing" and "realistic" were not applicable to the variant then I would accept 'failure' ... Your friendly neighbourhood "troll", over ...
Last edited:
Whereas in actuality, seeing as what you're saying against them makes zero sense, you draw more people's attention to them. Ironic no?
If the arguments have no validity, only an idiot encountering them would think that they have.
I removed ALL of the resistance from the cables, leaving only the pure inductances and capacitances. Most of the difference is still there, at higher frequencies, and most of the lower-frequency difference is gone.
The two attached plots are with 13-foot, 14-gauge, "lamp cord" cables.
Attachments
Last edited:
Going back to Pano's comment:
An analogy I might draw on is the Hubble telescope - it was flawed because of a stuffup, a mistake of implementation - and its primary function was severely crippled, all the precision elsewhere was wasted because of the one error. It could be compensated for somewhat by all sorts of cleverness in the processing of the data - but the only real longterm solution was to fix the 'bug' - at massive cost, etc. The silver lining was that the 'fixed' instrument was now capable of doing better than the original design ...
The bone I'm picking is that seemingly all the 'scientific' energy is focused on FR, and dispersion of sound in the listening space. IME this is a very poor substitute for a more effective solution - improving the quality of the sound being fed to the acoustic transducers.
An analogy I might draw on is the Hubble telescope - it was flawed because of a stuffup, a mistake of implementation - and its primary function was severely crippled, all the precision elsewhere was wasted because of the one error. It could be compensated for somewhat by all sorts of cleverness in the processing of the data - but the only real longterm solution was to fix the 'bug' - at massive cost, etc. The silver lining was that the 'fixed' instrument was now capable of doing better than the original design ...
Last edited:
I do appreciate that some people want an audio system to sound like a hifi - I was intrigued when I first realised this. The sound should be "small", must obviously originate from the speaker drivers, and the quality deteriorate steadily in a subjective sense as the volume increases - only twee, prissy, simple, "nice" recordings need apply ...
Well that one was not for a "real" cable, since it had zero resistance and included only the inductance and capacitance.
The "real" cables still top out at 0.068 dB difference. But that's down at 250 Hz and we're talking tweeters. So I guess I'd say the effective worst-case difference with the 13-foot zip cord cables (with my particular amplifier and speaker models) is about 0.04 dB.
I did just run some THD tests, with 37 Hz sine of 114 V P-P and 2 kHz sine at 11.4 V P-P, at the two amps' output terminals. I took the THD of the 2 kHz sine voltage across the driver input terminals of both the bi-wired and the single-cabled tweeters. I then swept the cable lengths from 13 feet to 513 feet, 100 feet at a time. After adding 500 feet to the cable lengths, the THD in the bi-wired setup was down to 95% of the THD in the single-cabled setup.
So far, my conclusion is that (with the circuits and cables that I am simulating, at least) the difference in sound quality, between bi-wired and single-cabled, is probably negligible.
There is one other small difference that was again highlighted by using stupidly-long cables: The bi-wired version didn't lose amplitude, as the cable length increased. From an amplitude at the driver terminals of about 3.18 V P-P, the single-cabled 2 kHz sine lost about 512 mV P-P after 500 feet was added to the cable length (and shifted very-slightly ahead, in phase). But the bi-wired version's 2 kHz sine actually gained about 141 mV P-P (and more phase lead than the other one did).
The 'big picture' is that bi-wiring alters the sound in possibly subtle ways, that some people find relatively easy to discern. Those seeking to find an 'answer' with conventional thinking will find very little on offer, as exampled by Tom's effort to model and sim the very slight variations demonstrates.
Yet, the apparent ability of some people to hear a difference is there: so, either adopt the easy way out - it's all in the listener's head, they've 'fooled' themselves into hearing a difference which isn't there, isn't audibly significant. Or, there is a significant difference, which is detectible by some ears, and therefore by appropriate measurement.
This is an issue that spreads out in every area of the audio game, so is worthwhile pursing. Again, always treating the situation in simplistic terms - it's "just R,L,C" type arguments - will invariably lead to a dead end ...
Yet, the apparent ability of some people to hear a difference is there: so, either adopt the easy way out - it's all in the listener's head, they've 'fooled' themselves into hearing a difference which isn't there, isn't audibly significant. Or, there is a significant difference, which is detectible by some ears, and therefore by appropriate measurement.
This is an issue that spreads out in every area of the audio game, so is worthwhile pursing. Again, always treating the situation in simplistic terms - it's "just R,L,C" type arguments - will invariably lead to a dead end ...
The 'trouble' with DBTs in this situation, and in just about all the areas that count, subjectively, has been thrashed over, over and over again. The care with which one has to do it, the motivation that has to be applied, the listeners' mental approach, and the impact of the testing procedure on the very behaviour you're trying to pick up, all contribute to the weakness of this method.
The only long term solution is to get 'solid data', from real measuring devices - just what SY's after, - then we'll have some real 'meat' to play with ...
The only long term solution is to get 'solid data', from real measuring devices - just what SY's after,
- then we'll have some real 'meat' to play with ...
OT:
SY, (your pm inbox is full)
I was in Oak Park (IL) a few weeks ago (couldn't get a downtown room for one of the nights we were there) and had one of the better meals of my life, unexpectedly (and for only $17).
Since you're somewhere in or around Chicago, I thought I'd let you know, in case you're running out of things to try, yet. ;-)
It was at Il Vicolo Trattoria, at 116 N Oak Park Ave. I had the Chicken Marsala. (My gf had the Chicken Parmesan and it was good but just didn't compare. So try the Chicken Marsala, if at all possible, if you go.)
It was just some chicken, mushrooms, wine sauce, roasted potato chunks, and some vegetable. I wasn't expecting anything great from it. And I'm not an Italian food buff, or anything. But every bite was an "omG!"-gasm! I briefly considered moving there, just to be able to have it whenever I wanted.
We were there in the mid-late afternoon, on a Saturday. So maybe the A-team was up. The service was excellent, too.
Cheers,
Tom Gootee
SY, (your pm inbox is full)
I was in Oak Park (IL) a few weeks ago (couldn't get a downtown room for one of the nights we were there) and had one of the better meals of my life, unexpectedly (and for only $17).
Since you're somewhere in or around Chicago, I thought I'd let you know, in case you're running out of things to try, yet. ;-)
It was at Il Vicolo Trattoria, at 116 N Oak Park Ave. I had the Chicken Marsala. (My gf had the Chicken Parmesan and it was good but just didn't compare. So try the Chicken Marsala, if at all possible, if you go.)
It was just some chicken, mushrooms, wine sauce, roasted potato chunks, and some vegetable. I wasn't expecting anything great from it. And I'm not an Italian food buff, or anything. But every bite was an "omG!"-gasm! I briefly considered moving there, just to be able to have it whenever I wanted.
We were there in the mid-late afternoon, on a Saturday. So maybe the A-team was up. The service was excellent, too.
Cheers,
Tom Gootee
See the bottom plots of the last two plot images, at
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ferently-when-you-bi-wire-20.html#post3640567
Those are with 13-foot cables.
Thanks, Tom. Yes, modelling the full path is part of the answer - but every amplifier is different, in myriads of ways. Only by complete modelling of every instance, and part, of an audio system, with all parasitics, and non-ideal behaviours will one be capable of predicting what the real life behaviour will be, in all situations, to any degree. An interesting challenge to pursue ...
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.