Dear me, this is getting all very heavy duty. I just use simple techniques: like, first asking the question, does power line interference cause a problem? I find out by switching off and pulling the plug on every power device in the house -- is there a change in sound when something is plugged back in and running? Yes, there always is if the system is of reasonable quality I have found, therefore filtering is required. Next step, design a filter that can pass the same test: with nothing else running it either doesn't degrade, or possibly improves the sound. And, allows other things to be running without any change in sound. Step by step by step, you build up a black box that does audio properly, audibly unaffected by its environment ...
Frank
Frank
Regarding some dont like the filters they used/listened with.
Can you really be concerned about a few people? I mean if they are starving, sure. Otherwise, tough luck for them. maybe next time.
The second part to your WHY question is to then characterize the equipment you have as to its suceptability to unwanted signals on the power lines. That includes how much distortion is increased. And, you would not want to make a filter to sell which only cleaned the freqs at your home and your equipments power supply/circuitry/topology susseptability. But a wide range of freqs and circuit topologies (varying PSR et al) to cover all the bases.
I already gave a clue that the unwanted junk is coming from our own equipment connected to the line. That helps with filter design. And the range of freqs is very wide. So what is the range of freqs that Typically get into our equipment like amps? More tests of a wide range. Then which freqs are most commonly getting inside and make a filter for those.
You end up with some CM and some DM filtering of a cerrtain ratio that covers as wide a range as possible and still be affordable. Equipment to equipment isolation is part of getting rid of the interaction and from the direct injection of the freqs onto the line. So we need multiple filters and isolation from each piece of gear on the ac line.
The products I helped develope at Monster first came from a design I had loaned to Noel Lee before he decided he wanted to hire me to help make them successful. It ended up a $200M a year business until it got copied by a retail chain who now make $200M a year. So, with a few years work and some background in power and a lot of testing, any buyer can get some benefit at a Popular price range. Plus added surge and transient protection so all can be assured of getting their monies worth.
That first idea to make a shunt filter, was to originally quiet the people who think series filters might restrict peak amp levels or compress the sound etal. But that isnt really happening at all if the filters are designed correctly.
OK. There's a quick review of How and why from past to present of home entertainment ac line filtering. Sometimes, being first is more important in the market place than being best. better-best came later.
Thee End... will there be a sequel?
Thx - RNM
Can you really be concerned about a few people? I mean if they are starving, sure. Otherwise, tough luck for them. maybe next time.
The second part to your WHY question is to then characterize the equipment you have as to its suceptability to unwanted signals on the power lines. That includes how much distortion is increased. And, you would not want to make a filter to sell which only cleaned the freqs at your home and your equipments power supply/circuitry/topology susseptability. But a wide range of freqs and circuit topologies (varying PSR et al) to cover all the bases.
I already gave a clue that the unwanted junk is coming from our own equipment connected to the line. That helps with filter design. And the range of freqs is very wide. So what is the range of freqs that Typically get into our equipment like amps? More tests of a wide range. Then which freqs are most commonly getting inside and make a filter for those.
You end up with some CM and some DM filtering of a cerrtain ratio that covers as wide a range as possible and still be affordable. Equipment to equipment isolation is part of getting rid of the interaction and from the direct injection of the freqs onto the line. So we need multiple filters and isolation from each piece of gear on the ac line.
The products I helped develope at Monster first came from a design I had loaned to Noel Lee before he decided he wanted to hire me to help make them successful. It ended up a $200M a year business until it got copied by a retail chain who now make $200M a year. So, with a few years work and some background in power and a lot of testing, any buyer can get some benefit at a Popular price range. Plus added surge and transient protection so all can be assured of getting their monies worth.
That first idea to make a shunt filter, was to originally quiet the people who think series filters might restrict peak amp levels or compress the sound etal. But that isnt really happening at all if the filters are designed correctly.
OK. There's a quick review of How and why from past to present of home entertainment ac line filtering. Sometimes, being first is more important in the market place than being best. better-best came later.
Thee End... will there be a sequel?
Thx - RNM
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Better answer, so it wasn't anecdotal (metadata?) stories about Tice clocks? I understand in the audio business one goes with the folklore of the day when it's harmless, good for business.
Thanks jn, that's interesting. And how did you find taking feedback from the speaker - make any difference to the sound? I have considered doing this for quite some time, but more recently found its not the lowest-hanging fruit of getting decent sound
I have a serious question: Does anybody actually have fun with ultimate quality, anymore? We used to, but there seems to be a concerted effort to burn out the enthusiasm.
Tonight, I happened to see a short documentary about another specialized area of interest:
'quality fruit and vegetables'.
I KNOW that many here will complain about the comparison, etc with audio, but hear me out at least.
This video documentary was about Monterey Market, a store that I rarely visit, yet I go by and even park next to their lot several times a week. Why I don't visit this market normally is because I am a 'meat and potatoes' kind of guy, and I shop at the butcher shop across the street, instead.
However, this documentary was a REVELATION. These people have FUN growing and selecting the HIGHEST QUALITY vegetables and making them available for the general public to buy. Moreover, they also supply major restaurants like Chez Panisse on a daily basis. They seem to have FUN at supplying this need, AND they appear to be VERY knowledgeable about what they buy and sell.
I found it interesting that at least one of the owners was an engineering graduate from UC Berkeley, who came back to work in his father's store, because it was fun to work there.
In my opinion, AUDIO should be fun. We should want more than just the 'supermarket' quality stuff, that might look superficially the same, yet may taste very different.
Kind of like the difference between an original Coca Cola from a bottle with real cane sugar, and something you get with the same name from a fast food outlet.
Double blind tests will also obscure the differences in soda, just like it does for audio.
Still the difference, AND the potential SATISFACTION can be lost, if you do not try to compare the 'best' with the 'commercial equivalent', and trust your OWN opinion as to what is the same or different, better or just tolerable.
Tonight, I happened to see a short documentary about another specialized area of interest:
'quality fruit and vegetables'.
I KNOW that many here will complain about the comparison, etc with audio, but hear me out at least.
This video documentary was about Monterey Market, a store that I rarely visit, yet I go by and even park next to their lot several times a week. Why I don't visit this market normally is because I am a 'meat and potatoes' kind of guy, and I shop at the butcher shop across the street, instead.
However, this documentary was a REVELATION. These people have FUN growing and selecting the HIGHEST QUALITY vegetables and making them available for the general public to buy. Moreover, they also supply major restaurants like Chez Panisse on a daily basis. They seem to have FUN at supplying this need, AND they appear to be VERY knowledgeable about what they buy and sell.
I found it interesting that at least one of the owners was an engineering graduate from UC Berkeley, who came back to work in his father's store, because it was fun to work there.
In my opinion, AUDIO should be fun. We should want more than just the 'supermarket' quality stuff, that might look superficially the same, yet may taste very different.
Kind of like the difference between an original Coca Cola from a bottle with real cane sugar, and something you get with the same name from a fast food outlet.
Double blind tests will also obscure the differences in soda, just like it does for audio.
Still the difference, AND the potential SATISFACTION can be lost, if you do not try to compare the 'best' with the 'commercial equivalent', and trust your OWN opinion as to what is the same or different, better or just tolerable.
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John, that's a GREAT point.
I am enthusiastic about, and have fun with, everything I do, at least in the technical realms. Otherwise I would not do it at all, which has never crossed my mind. I think that many are the same way. But then there are the others....
By the way, speaking of quality food, I have produced a lot of DIY food, in the past, and there can be a HUGE satisfaction from it, especially when it's so unbelievably-much better-tasting than what can be obtained through the normal channels.
Regards,
Tom
I am enthusiastic about, and have fun with, everything I do, at least in the technical realms. Otherwise I would not do it at all, which has never crossed my mind. I think that many are the same way. But then there are the others....
By the way, speaking of quality food, I have produced a lot of DIY food, in the past, and there can be a HUGE satisfaction from it, especially when it's so unbelievably-much better-tasting than what can be obtained through the normal channels.
Regards,
Tom
Sure.
But for me, quality isn't a silly numbers game.
The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. --Robert Pirsig
se
No. Not completely... the time line was the Tice clock came first and was measured. There was a lot of people and reviewers buzzing about it and I got curious as to how this could be and I got one to test. then the idea came to model that z curve I found. from that the idea came of having several of them in parallel to cover the entire freq range and from sim i noticed the overlap cancelled and so I deliberately made them all cancel at the +90 and -90 degree points and thus be resistive. It was all done in sim software and wasnt a year later into sales production that I actually measured the filter as hardware. it was exactly as the sim said it would be. The patent was based on that sim, too.
In order to measure the Tice in the first place - it had to be talked about and reviewed. most said they heard an affect... the Metadat.... it was getting a lot of talk and buzz. That is where it started. My test for Z across the cord was something that lead to the shunt patent...as I described. The marketing idea about shunt filter came about to feed the talk that series filters were nfg.
[today i use series filters... multiple ones and isolation transformers... they get me deepr/greater attenuation. i have a patent there too. Used in video filtering/freq]
Its too bad I dont put it all out at once but we'd never get thru it that way.
-RNM
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Yes. If one knows, really knows what can be achieved in quality, then one has an excellent marker, a guidepost to always aim for. You may not always hit it, irritating things often get in the way; but when it all comes together you then have the 'ah-haa!!' moment ...
I have found a quality level can be reached where there is no inner doubt that a peak has been achieved. A simple test: if you need to ask yourself whether it's "there", then the answer is that it's not ...
Frank
Yep - if its not about achieving the ultimate quality then where's the fun?
Telling people they SHOULD be having fun is certainly one way to sap their enthusiasm
If it ain't fun, change your hobby to something that is would be my suggestion.BTW -- my style is to be conceptual/idea first and then get deeper and deeper into the details.
As far as audio reproduction is concerned, when you have no awareness of the mechanism playing back the sound -- that's good enough for me ...
Frank
I simply mean to define it such that it makes the word meaningful to the discussion. John asked "Does anybody actually have fun with ultimate quality, anymore?"
So what exactly is the definition of quality as used in John's query?
Judging from most of the discussion that takes place in this thread, it seems quality is ultimately just numbers, i.e. "ultimate quality" is about attempting to achieve "ultimate numbers."
se
Ah, that's different. A meaning is easy - to me it means aural satisfaction, aural delight. To be drawn into the music.
Quality means different things to different people - so if you wanna know JC's meaning, ask him not me
Count me out from amongst the numbers boys ok?
Ah, that's different. A meaning is easy - to me it means aural satisfaction, aural delight. To be drawn into the music.
Quality means different things to different people - so if you wanna know JC's meaning, ask him not me
Ah, yes. But you replied to John's statement saying "Yep - if its not about achieving the ultimate quality then where's the fun?" So it seemed you were simpatico with John's meaning of the word.
Count me out from amongst the numbers boys ok?
COUNT you OUT from amongst the NUMBERS boys?
BWAAAAHAHAHAHA!
se
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