You do not have to prove something does not exist. You have to prove it does exist.
I could say there are invisible gnomes at the bottom of my garden, and then when someone told me it was impossible. Rather than showing evidence, I could just say "prove they don't exist!" now THAT is bad science.
There are plenty on the net and certainly also members of this forum.
On some places they already communicate mostly over PM or Email and even announce so in public after feeling misunderstood by the narrow-minded public.
I bet they already meet in dark corners of the net celebrating their superiority as being "The Illuminati of Sound"
another shot at double-blind testing
See especially the initial post by a philosophy professor "with an interest in experimental methodology, especially in psychology and psychiatry"
I like this one! But I wonder what aspect of the human psyche they might be investigating? There are quite a few to choose from. I've no doubt that appropriate ideas will spring quickly into the minds of forum members. Don't hold back, make a suggestion!
The most inventing and amusing will get the opportunity to be analysed, on the purple velvet couch. Go on. You know you want to.
Sorry to sound off topic ;-)
But can some of the believers comment on this one then?
Knowing the difference between laminar and turbulent flow of fluid. (ones all rough and muddled, the other's smooth as velvet)....
Let's say you have a pipe that you want as laminar a flow as possible from. Now, the pipe has nice ridges and channels in it to aid this laminar flow, and is fed by an enormous bucket which takes 10 minutes to fill. However, the bucket, is fed by a really turbulent pipe.
Thankfully the turbulent pipe input makes no difference to the output - because of the enormous buffer. Would you think a nice laminar pipe would help here?
Now I know this isn't an exact analogy, for instance a SATA HDD, RAM, DAC scenario has even more decoupling from HDD to DAC, amongst other differences.
I'm not trying to demand proof from the OP, I'm more interested in trying to demonstrate why I believe it can't make any difference. Like someone else mentioned, a silver SATA cable make as much difference as getting the bus instead of driving to go and buy a CD.
It doesn't matter what affect this cable makes on jitter, and SNR, and anything else you can think of. As long as it works, the rest of the system will buffer any potential problems a SATA cable may have.
SATA cables don't feed a DAC directly. The signal from the HDD is read by hardware, which in turn in read by the CPU(or a DMA), then sent into RAM, then read by the CPU(or a DMA) and sent to the DAC input. How can the SATA cable make a difference here?
Perhaps you're hearing differences because the rest of the system is having issues. Hang on, I really am going round in circles now!
But can some of the believers comment on this one then?
Knowing the difference between laminar and turbulent flow of fluid. (ones all rough and muddled, the other's smooth as velvet)....
Let's say you have a pipe that you want as laminar a flow as possible from. Now, the pipe has nice ridges and channels in it to aid this laminar flow, and is fed by an enormous bucket which takes 10 minutes to fill. However, the bucket, is fed by a really turbulent pipe.
Thankfully the turbulent pipe input makes no difference to the output - because of the enormous buffer. Would you think a nice laminar pipe would help here?
Now I know this isn't an exact analogy, for instance a SATA HDD, RAM, DAC scenario has even more decoupling from HDD to DAC, amongst other differences.
I'm not trying to demand proof from the OP, I'm more interested in trying to demonstrate why I believe it can't make any difference. Like someone else mentioned, a silver SATA cable make as much difference as getting the bus instead of driving to go and buy a CD.
It doesn't matter what affect this cable makes on jitter, and SNR, and anything else you can think of. As long as it works, the rest of the system will buffer any potential problems a SATA cable may have.
SATA cables don't feed a DAC directly. The signal from the HDD is read by hardware, which in turn in read by the CPU(or a DMA), then sent into RAM, then read by the CPU(or a DMA) and sent to the DAC input. How can the SATA cable make a difference here?
Perhaps you're hearing differences because the rest of the system is having issues. Hang on, I really am going round in circles now!
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Of course I am following that thread. Discussions like that one pop up on forums regularly, nothing new.
If someone claims he can hear something improbable yet refuses to take a part in a DBT to prove his claim,why should I take that claim seriously?
"The burden of evidence is on the guy peddling this nonsense" unbelievable and that for a moderator ? This is exactly the point of vieuw that kept the Dark Ages centuries in the dark. They are not interested in empirical findings only on the "holy belief of THEIR theory.
He does not have to proof anything. Every cheap sata cable or usb cable will transmit the zero's and ones in a way that the system will acknowledge a bit perfect copy in the end. But transmitting these data in order to acquire a bit perfect copy is the only function that these cables were designed for. You personally and the rest of you have no clue how that will sound. Me too, I am clueless as well but I acknowledge that fact. Those sata cables were never ever designed for their sound properties, as and that is the unproven theory- every copy should sound the same How else can that be? two errors
1) error correction algorithms are not perfect, but I belief that is not the reason for the perceived sound differences
2) bit perfect only defines the theoretical 0 and 1 while in the real world of atoms and electrons and fields there are no perfect 0 and 1, there is a complex collections of forces and tiny objects working together as a natural "gestalt" in fact they are the analogue fundamentals also of digital. What is send and received by digital transmission is much more than the perfect idea of "nothing" and a short fixed dc voltage. what is this "nothing" in this high frequency "storm" or streaming data? it is the same fixed dc voltage it should be zero volts We all know that analogue freq higher than the digital freq rides with it .. also overshoot rides with it and infinite rise times do not exist. Now suppose an unknown X rides with it too, just suppose This unknown X could be a variant of while even a single copper wire needs to be "played in" for at least 24hrs to sound at its best when transporting analogue signals.
Also resistors capacitors and active transistor actually the whole thing in analogue land needs to be played in sometimes for more than 200 hrs to loose its edginess. Analogue is very very sensitive for the human ear much much more than apparatus of measurements can measure.
What can you measure in silver and copper wires that explains why they sound different? You can measure the resistance differences but making the copper wire a bit thicker or place a second wire next to each to equal the resistance with a sliver wire and they still sound different. How can a man proof scientifically to you that silver sound different? Even when ppl hear differences it can easily be disregarded as "subjective" And that is right Science disregards anything that belongs to the human experience of things as subjective.
How things sound is by nature subjective. That is why the perfect speaker that measures perfectly can sound afwul and totally non musical. Science cannot still understand why the Stradivarius sound so good. All explanations are just hypotheses.
Back to sata. digital travels theoretically perfect all the way from the hdd via PC to the DAC. Whatever happens in between, the 0 and 1 ( lets assume) arrive at the dac chip "unharmed" exactly as they theoretically are in pure form on the source side: the hdd.
The DAC however has a built in enemy to these purity of 0 and 1, it has a conversion side to actively translate all these pure 0 and 1 into analogue, but that domain is o so sensitive to everything what influences sound in the well known analogue domain. That everything is a lot
While for a computer to work "perfectly" the zero and ones are clean enough. for the DAC they are not.
This "X" factor that travels with the analogue ground structure of digital arrives into the active DA conversion part of the dac and influences the final analogue outcome. My metaphor is this
The digital stream is a soup made of water and it may contain nice square blocks of frozen water made of that same water, that for this story cannot melt unless when instructed to. All lines are tubes all memory are cups Water alone is "0", water with an ice cube is a "1". the nature of the water does not count as a third variable, it may be pure and transparent or coloured and transparent or hazy to a point. too muddy or hazy does not work as too many cubes will be undetectable. The X factor is the nature of the water. when it is absent the water is pure
Only at the dac side the nature of the water becomes paramount as it passes it on to or influences the analogue side. the conversion part needs cubes made of and clean transparent water, a condition undetectable for the computer
You guys stare blind to the digital world only as there indeed the zeros and ones are considered pure as it works, but that simple sata cable is part of a total analogue package, it is part of a stereo setup and your ears hear the difference.. or not. When not? Do not buy the cable.
But show at least some decency to the brave who dare to step outside the well known box. The man does not offer a cable which has been laid in the moonlight for 12,75 hrs and kissed by a beautiful maiden so that it will sound better. That would be a different matter.
Before this year is over more silver internal pc connects will come at the market. The PC will break through this year as THE source capable of true high end sound making all other sources economically obsolete. But only when you demystify digital of its "purity" and independence of its analogue fundament. Macs will survive a bit longer as music source because of their good name and culture
He does not have to proof anything. Every cheap sata cable or usb cable will transmit the zero's and ones in a way that the system will acknowledge a bit perfect copy in the end. But transmitting these data in order to acquire a bit perfect copy is the only function that these cables were designed for. You personally and the rest of you have no clue how that will sound. Me too, I am clueless as well but I acknowledge that fact. Those sata cables were never ever designed for their sound properties, as and that is the unproven theory- every copy should sound the same How else can that be? two errors
1) error correction algorithms are not perfect, but I belief that is not the reason for the perceived sound differences
2) bit perfect only defines the theoretical 0 and 1 while in the real world of atoms and electrons and fields there are no perfect 0 and 1, there is a complex collections of forces and tiny objects working together as a natural "gestalt" in fact they are the analogue fundamentals also of digital. What is send and received by digital transmission is much more than the perfect idea of "nothing" and a short fixed dc voltage. what is this "nothing" in this high frequency "storm" or streaming data? it is the same fixed dc voltage it should be zero volts We all know that analogue freq higher than the digital freq rides with it .. also overshoot rides with it and infinite rise times do not exist. Now suppose an unknown X rides with it too, just suppose This unknown X could be a variant of while even a single copper wire needs to be "played in" for at least 24hrs to sound at its best when transporting analogue signals.
Also resistors capacitors and active transistor actually the whole thing in analogue land needs to be played in sometimes for more than 200 hrs to loose its edginess. Analogue is very very sensitive for the human ear much much more than apparatus of measurements can measure.
What can you measure in silver and copper wires that explains why they sound different? You can measure the resistance differences but making the copper wire a bit thicker or place a second wire next to each to equal the resistance with a sliver wire and they still sound different. How can a man proof scientifically to you that silver sound different? Even when ppl hear differences it can easily be disregarded as "subjective" And that is right Science disregards anything that belongs to the human experience of things as subjective.
How things sound is by nature subjective. That is why the perfect speaker that measures perfectly can sound afwul and totally non musical. Science cannot still understand why the Stradivarius sound so good. All explanations are just hypotheses.
Back to sata. digital travels theoretically perfect all the way from the hdd via PC to the DAC. Whatever happens in between, the 0 and 1 ( lets assume) arrive at the dac chip "unharmed" exactly as they theoretically are in pure form on the source side: the hdd.
The DAC however has a built in enemy to these purity of 0 and 1, it has a conversion side to actively translate all these pure 0 and 1 into analogue, but that domain is o so sensitive to everything what influences sound in the well known analogue domain. That everything is a lot
While for a computer to work "perfectly" the zero and ones are clean enough. for the DAC they are not.
This "X" factor that travels with the analogue ground structure of digital arrives into the active DA conversion part of the dac and influences the final analogue outcome. My metaphor is this
The digital stream is a soup made of water and it may contain nice square blocks of frozen water made of that same water, that for this story cannot melt unless when instructed to. All lines are tubes all memory are cups Water alone is "0", water with an ice cube is a "1". the nature of the water does not count as a third variable, it may be pure and transparent or coloured and transparent or hazy to a point. too muddy or hazy does not work as too many cubes will be undetectable. The X factor is the nature of the water. when it is absent the water is pure
Only at the dac side the nature of the water becomes paramount as it passes it on to or influences the analogue side. the conversion part needs cubes made of and clean transparent water, a condition undetectable for the computer
You guys stare blind to the digital world only as there indeed the zeros and ones are considered pure as it works, but that simple sata cable is part of a total analogue package, it is part of a stereo setup and your ears hear the difference.. or not. When not? Do not buy the cable.
But show at least some decency to the brave who dare to step outside the well known box. The man does not offer a cable which has been laid in the moonlight for 12,75 hrs and kissed by a beautiful maiden so that it will sound better. That would be a different matter.
Before this year is over more silver internal pc connects will come at the market. The PC will break through this year as THE source capable of true high end sound making all other sources economically obsolete. But only when you demystify digital of its "purity" and independence of its analogue fundament. Macs will survive a bit longer as music source because of their good name and culture
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Even if all this would be true and you have a DAC that is awfully built and wrongly interprets its input signal there is still the point that this is be a problem that would be fixed with a better DAC, not with a fancy SATA cable.
this is true for all dacs, not just the bad designed. All Dacs are vulnerable to factor X as they were designed around the idea that factor X does not exist.
It is the empirical world of experience that will force dac makers to investigate further why that simple sata cable makes a difference. It is the other way around. Science origins are inductive, your kind of reasoning is purely deductive. Deductive reasoning is always backwards, it can only proof the what is already known
It is the empirical world of experience that will force dac makers to investigate further why that simple sata cable makes a difference. It is the other way around. Science origins are inductive, your kind of reasoning is purely deductive. Deductive reasoning is always backwards, it can only proof the what is already known
But you have to realize that even if there was factor X which messes up all the bits the people who design the chips and actually know what they're doing would just add more layers of error correction until an actual actual error caused by factor X is so rare that it can be ignored.
Say you add enough error correction such that on average only one error every year passes all the correction, isn't that negligible?
I wonder what your next silver product is gonna be.
Modern PSU cables are detachable these days - what a chance. Of course the fixed ones would be no market opportunity, those who buy hand-made silver sata cables have no knowledge and equipment to solder new wires to their existing PSUs.
Cables from the MB to case controls (leds, power switch) - they do not carry any signals, but who cares. Silver is silver, and the X threatens.
Fan wires - PWM control, ideal candidates. But bad luck, they are soldered too. Perhaps you could sell complete fans with silver wires. And the fan coils could be silver wound too.
And that's it, no more interconnects in modern PCs. No more opportunities for bussiness to rich clueless audiophiles. But you will certainly come up with something new, creative, not from the dark ages.
"Say you add enough error correction such that on average only one error every year passes all the correction, isn't that negligible? "
factor X has nothing to do with "errors" the zero's and ones's do not need correction because of this "X" "X"is independent of the digital world and completely "neglected" by digital hardware. ONLY when somewhere digital is converted to analogue it "pops" up. It will always pop up in some degree as it can never be zero in praxis if bit perfect is bit perfect how can mac sound different then windows going to the same dac and stereo setup behind it?
Why does windows on a separate hdd ( USB/SATA converter enclosure) with LINEAR but good power sound triple better than windows insde the PC with default power? Add to that all music files on a similar separate enclosure with clean power and then you realize the PC may reach or surpass a high end turntable and MC given a superb software player not JRiver or Foobar
factor X has nothing to do with "errors" the zero's and ones's do not need correction because of this "X" "X"is independent of the digital world and completely "neglected" by digital hardware. ONLY when somewhere digital is converted to analogue it "pops" up. It will always pop up in some degree as it can never be zero in praxis if bit perfect is bit perfect how can mac sound different then windows going to the same dac and stereo setup behind it?
Why does windows on a separate hdd ( USB/SATA converter enclosure) with LINEAR but good power sound triple better than windows insde the PC with default power? Add to that all music files on a similar separate enclosure with clean power and then you realize the PC may reach or surpass a high end turntable and MC given a superb software player not JRiver or Foobar
Listen yo yourself, that is Dark Age thinking. Try to understand what inductive research is about
This is no research, but a heap of nonsenses. Seasoned researchers would not even reply to this thread. There is a rule in research - always verify your findings, your observations - be it inductive or deductive. How did you verify the audible impact of sata cables (or generally silved PC interconnects)?
Given that the proponents of this ordure are now using a link to the writings of someone publicly declaring himself to be "a philosophy professor with an interest in experimental methodology, especially in psychology and psychiatry"
may I make this suggestion:
may I make this suggestion:
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I give monthly lectures on methodology of research at the university. Philosophy of science and methodology is one of the courses that I teach. What you really do not comprehend is that your thinking is in "defense mode"
For some reason "silver sata cables" attacks your rationality. Test the cable you will find a perfect but silver sata cable. And there positivist science stops what you and those who think like you so desperately try to extend. A/B blind listening tests in the subjective domain of listening is a hoax. Conclusions can only roughly made as yr ears hoe perfect they are and way beyond any mechanical sensitivity are also linked to the one who interprets his hearing. Only that as a combination, can be "blind tested"
Eskimo's are well known to distinct and therefore able to see more than 30 kinds of snow. Put yourself next to an average Eskimo in Greenland in a very snowy landscape and another person will do an A/B test between you and that Eskimo of how many kinds of snow really can be perceived. And take all yr Czech friends with you and let them join the test.. Poor Eskimo, he must be a clever salesmen trying with a beautiful clever marketing pitch to persuade you to accept his findings as he is the only "fool" who claim to see so much.
What is true for the eye is also true for the other 4 senses.
Simon B ah ya I began some posts ago what is there to say to the blind and deaf? So I will not react to you anymore
For some reason "silver sata cables" attacks your rationality. Test the cable you will find a perfect but silver sata cable. And there positivist science stops what you and those who think like you so desperately try to extend. A/B blind listening tests in the subjective domain of listening is a hoax. Conclusions can only roughly made as yr ears hoe perfect they are and way beyond any mechanical sensitivity are also linked to the one who interprets his hearing. Only that as a combination, can be "blind tested"
Eskimo's are well known to distinct and therefore able to see more than 30 kinds of snow. Put yourself next to an average Eskimo in Greenland in a very snowy landscape and another person will do an A/B test between you and that Eskimo of how many kinds of snow really can be perceived. And take all yr Czech friends with you and let them join the test.. Poor Eskimo, he must be a clever salesmen trying with a beautiful clever marketing pitch to persuade you to accept his findings as he is the only "fool" who claim to see so much.
What is true for the eye is also true for the other 4 senses.
Simon B ah ya I began some posts ago what is there to say to the blind and deaf? So I will not react to you anymore
I had plenty of incompetent lecturers at college. Not that I'd wish to question your competence of course.
Let us hope that the end is near.....
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Actually dark age thinking is preists trying to make people believe in something which there is no evidence for (factor x) and denouncing science which can be proven right before your eyes.
One thing which does exist and has been proven over and over, is the placebo effect. There is your factor x.
kyrill
And this factor X can of course not be measured and is always present?
Lets redo what i proposed before:
But after you read the music files from the hard drives you print out the bits, write them down on a paper then let one of your friends input them back into the computer and then send them to the DAC. (sure it's impractical with so much information but lets ignore that in this case)
Do you seriously still mean that a mythical factor X which is purely analogue is still present and affected by this silver SATA cable even though all the bits are correct and the path has been decoupled by a human in between?
And this factor X can of course not be measured and is always present?
Lets redo what i proposed before:
But after you read the music files from the hard drives you print out the bits, write them down on a paper then let one of your friends input them back into the computer and then send them to the DAC. (sure it's impractical with so much information but lets ignore that in this case)
Do you seriously still mean that a mythical factor X which is purely analogue is still present and affected by this silver SATA cable even though all the bits are correct and the path has been decoupled by a human in between?
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