Regarding the SME arms, although beautifully made, they are far less capable of dealing with the mechanical energy produced by low compliance MC cartridges than is even good. The knife edge bearings have freedom to "jump" vertically. Any good higher mass arm with captive bearings has to have more structural integrity in this regard. A friend used to use unipivots (DIY) with extreme mass so as to control the tendency to jump. These arms were 16" and had a centre hub of close to 2 Kg of stainless steel and the arm beams were of heavy silicon carbide tubing cured at very high temperatures. They were very very good with original Audionote Io and SPU cartridges. IF I was not happy with the Zeta I would most certainly go for the Schick....but I would first have the Zeta rewired with a high quality wire (NOT Cardas!) as I have found the Zeta silver to be too thin in tone compared to a good pure copper wire.
Keep the SME for MM cartridges!
Keep the SME for MM cartridges!
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Papst motor measurements
Hello Gene , Steve
The measurements are done in the set up I posted today first the Papst motor with original capacitor 0,47 uf on 228 volt mains ,100 hz vibration on -30db this capacitor is very important for min.vibration next tuning capacitor too 0,523 uf ,100 hz now - 50db !!
Next the 3 phase supply with Omron inverter the piek now is on -45db 300hz !! and higher harmonics .
Last the good old E50 motor with the 100hz on -36db and some harmonics.
The next measurements will be with a hor.span from 400hz to see where the vibrations come from.
Volken
Hello Gene , Steve
The measurements are done in the set up I posted today first the Papst motor with original capacitor 0,47 uf on 228 volt mains ,100 hz vibration on -30db this capacitor is very important for min.vibration next tuning capacitor too 0,523 uf ,100 hz now - 50db !!
Next the 3 phase supply with Omron inverter the piek now is on -45db 300hz !! and higher harmonics .
Last the good old E50 motor with the 100hz on -36db and some harmonics.
The next measurements will be with a hor.span from 400hz to see where the vibrations come from.
Volken
Hi Volken.
Thanks for that post.
I think what I'm seeing, based on those 4 examples, is that with the right motor cap the Papst can run as quiet as the E50 in your test. Quieter, actually.
Then, with a true 3-phase PS, the Papst can operate several times quieter still than the E50 in your test.
In my one trial, I just used the suggested cap .47 uF.
Keeping in mind that I'm in NA. 115-120 vac @ 60 hz. My Papst motor is the NA version. Given this, my cap tuning experiences may lead me to a different value than the .523 uF cap that worked well in your test. Guessing.
Unfortunately, I have no means to test a motor except for a very useful mechanic's stethoscope. It would be far better to check these on a 'scope like in your setup that provides recorded data that can be compared over time.
I presume that in the above test you simply fed the motors wall socket power and recorded the maximum amplitude while making note of the frequency.
I do have an old laptop that's not being used for anything...... I wonder if...
Thanks to a post Kevin made last weekend, I will be looking into 3-phase inverters to power this unit as well. Although I am encouraged by the differences seen in your test between cap values while still running the Papst on single phase power.
I wonder if a super quiet runing Papst couldn't turn a TD124 into an overachiever.
Thanks again.
-Steve
That is interesting commentary re: SME. There is quite a following for 3012's using SPU's while tracking at 3 grams or higher. Not having experienced this myself (but interested) I suspect that the extra heavy SPU integrated headshell/cartridge, in combination with an extra gram of vertical force might tend to tame the armwand energizing effect.
That said, I do think you are right. SME's are going to work better on medium compliance cartridges....and somewhat iffy on low compliance cartridges.
I did have some minor experience using a 3009 S2 and a DL-103R.
The SME in the above photo had recently had its elastic coupler replaced with a new one. Otherwise, it is a stock old SME 3009 S2 still working. Standard wires. Sound was definitely not horrible. Pretty good, in fact. Just not up to the standards of the Zeta in my system.
re: Zeta
I'm rather happy with mine. Not for sale, etc.
With regard to wires and the Zeta, I've only heard mine and it came with the silver wires described in the previous thread. The only Zeta I know. I am getting a full bodied sound over here. It's the best match to the TD124 I've tried so far.
I did notice different sonic qualities from the Zeta based on armboard materials used, however. That and the head weight I'm using contribute to the sound I get. Actually pretty sweet sounding. Narry a harsh note to be heard. And a nice match for the Uwe bodied DL-103R.
-Steve
It all makes sense, even with the added mass of the ZU body, an Orsonic headshell (total about 28gms) and an additional 25gms of weight added at the counterweight it just isn't in quite the same league as the Schick - and that is pretty much what I expected otherwise I wouldn't have made the investment. The 3009 sounded very good, but the Schick substantially better.
I will also mention that both my 3009 arms sounded better with the ZU than with any of the apparently mediocre MM/MI types that preceded it. I'm thinking a Nagaoka 200 might be a good match for the SME if I don't end up selling it.
Using something other than the lightweight S2 headshell seems to be a very good idea with any lower compliance cartridges on one of these arms.
It struck me that the 3012 was a very significant improvement over the 3009 (both series II) with the ZU, however there was a strong family resemblance obviously and the improved performance was not transformative in the sense that the Schick has turned out to be.
There are plenty of medium compliance MC cartridges out there that I suspect would be a fairly good match with the SME, so I am not convinced that only MM will fit the ticket. (Some newer Denons, Sumiko BP EVO III, Benz, several Ortofons, etc..)
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Next time I take mine apart I'll do so, but it is running exceptionally well at the moment, and I have a policy of not messing with it when it's working correctly.
The speed is not determined by the diameter of your pulley, it is determined by the ratio of the inside diameter of your platter to the diameter of the selected step on your intermediate pulley. (Also by the slippage rate of the induction motor which is a function of load, frequency, and to a much lesser extent your line voltage.)
The motor pulley flips, and for 50Hz you should be using the larger of the two running surfaces - I only mention this because I recently worked on a US model that had been configured for 50Hz operation because it ran too slow before the motor overhaul. Someone could have messed with yours. Double check..
One reason that these tables run slowly is that the lubricant in the motor has solidified and is causing the motor to slow down, the other which I have encountered on two tables is if the main bearing is of the earlier sort with nylon bushings in the main bearing - these swell causing the bearing to start to seize. In this case the easiest recourse is to replace the main bearing - you can also replace the bushing inserts in some later housings. Note that you may need to fine polish the spindle very carefully if it has some scoring/spalling which I have seen mostly with the nylon bearing.
Edit: I took a look at your TT on the other thread and can see clearly that the motor pulley is installed in the correct orientation, and that you can the later main bearing with sintered bronze bushings so you should look at the motor next.
Minimally pull the motor out and disassemble to clean the bearings. Best IMHO to at least dismantle and clean the bearings and replace the felts. You can drill out the rivets and replace with M2 screws (IIRC) of about 5 - 6mm. The bearings need to cleaned in solvent and baked to drive out the old oil, then soaked in hot 20W oil for some period of time and allowed to cool. The felts should be replaced if possible. Make sure you do NOT mix up the top and bottom bearing. Here is a link to the whole procedure - it's really very easy: http://homepage2.nifty.com/pantone/thorens/overhaul_1.htm.
I remove the voltage change-over board with the motor and I don't completely remove the top motor cover as this minimizes the likelihood of damage to old wiring and the possibility of mistakes occurring. It's also much quicker.
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The point I was attempting to make is that if someone does not have an SME S1/S2 there is not much sense in buying one for use with low compliance MCs. There are other arms out there - often cheaper to buy - which will outperform the (earlier) SMEs in this application.
I am pleased that you are happy with the Schick....they seem to be based on a very sensibly considered balance of design criteria.
I completely agree, my comments were targeted more at people who own one or more of these arms. (I own two at the moment - two more honestly than I need..
)Kevin:
yes, all of the below help determine the speed of the platter. Did you forget the eddy current brake? and it's adjustment? (the distance between the secondary pully and the magnet.)
Also, although I agree with your advice about the motor bearings, I would take it a step further. How about making sure the motor bearings are put in to the same position,(top and bottom to the same position) but also including the top and bottom orientation of each bearing? that is the way they wore in. Of course, if they are being replaced, that doesn't apply.
The speed is not determined by the diameter of your pulley, it is determined by the ratio of the inside diameter of your platter to the diameter of the selected step on your intermediate pulley. (Also by the slippage rate of the induction motor which is a function of load, frequency, and to a much lesser extent your line voltage.)
yes, all of the below help determine the speed of the platter. Did you forget the eddy current brake?
and it's adjustment? (the distance between the secondary pully and the magnet.) Also, although I agree with your advice about the motor bearings, I would take it a step further. How about making sure the motor bearings are put in to the same position,(top and bottom to the same position) but also including the top and bottom orientation of each bearing? that is the way they wore in. Of course, if they are being replaced, that doesn't apply.
The speed is not determined by the diameter of your pulley, it is determined by the ratio of the inside diameter of your platter to the diameter of the selected step on your intermediate pulley. (Also by the slippage rate of the induction motor which is a function of load, frequency, and to a much lesser extent your line voltage.)
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Kevin:
yes, all of the below help determine the speed of the platter. Did you forget the eddy current brake?
Also, although I agree with your advice about the motor bearings, I would take it a step further. How about making sure the motor bearings are put in to the same position,(top and bottom to the same position) but also including the top and bottom orientation of each bearing? that is the way they wore in. Of course, if they are being replaced, that doesn't apply.
The speed is not determined by the diameter of your pulley, it is determined by the ratio of the inside diameter of your platter to the diameter of the selected step on your intermediate pulley. (Also by the slippage rate of the induction motor which is a function of load, frequency, and to a much lesser extent your line voltage.)
Actually I didn't - I have discussed the operation of the eddy current brake elsewhere in this and other threads. The comment about load could be construed to mean the frictional losses in the motor, idler, intermediate and main bearings as well as the deliberate losses introduced by the eddy current brake.
Actually if you had ever dis-assembled one of these motors you would know that there is only one correct orientation for each bearing, in fact I am not even certain that they can be inserted the wrong way around. Given my references repeatedly to a very thorough motor rebuild article I figured this was somewhat clear. All I was trying to do was to emphasize that swapping the bearings should be avoided. Following the re-assembly instructions should guarantee their proper orientation.
My comments were intended as a quick topical response to the questions posed and nothing more. All of the information required is in this thread and/or countless other places on the net. I'm wondering if it isn't just time for me to walk away from this subject in general.
Sell them Kevin and try and find a decent FR64S...[NOT 64FX]... You won't regret it!
You wouldn't be the first to tell me that, and if the opportunity arises I will probably act on it.
Ok
Kevin,
Iit's been a while since I disassembled my motor, (06) and I forgot that fact. Please forgive me, you have done more motor rebuilding than me. And, your right, the eddy current brake has been discussed quite a lot.
(crawling away, after trying to cross the minefield.)
Kevin,
Iit's been a while since I disassembled my motor, (06) and I forgot that fact. Please forgive me, you have done more motor rebuilding than me. And, your right, the eddy current brake has been discussed quite a lot.
(crawling away, after trying to cross the minefield.)
I'm feeling a bit cranky these days as I suddenly seem to have very little time, and I'm thinking in general that my time might be better spent elsewhere - like relaxing and listening to music, going for a walk, the gym, yard/house maintenance (ugh) etc. The average 2 1/2 hr daily commute going just 55 miles round trip isn't helping much either.. I thought that only happened in California..
New member jumping in
Since you have a discussion going around he 124 I wanted to see if I could source out some expertise. I have a NOS 124 which I want to bring into service. Yes, NOS. I wish to make contact off this site for some detailed discussion with someone who is really dialed in on these units. I live in Washington state, so a local would be ideal. Thank you
Since you have a discussion going around he 124 I wanted to see if I could source out some expertise. I have a NOS 124 which I want to bring into service. Yes, NOS. I wish to make contact off this site for some detailed discussion with someone who is really dialed in on these units. I live in Washington state, so a local would be ideal. Thank you
For those who don't know me, I using a early serial numbered TD124 that has received a full refurbish in recent years. Operation and sound quality of this unit seems admirable to my observation and listening.
Meanwhile; on the subject of belts for the TD124.
I'm open for suggestion on belts, whether they be the authorized version with Thorens logo on the outside ,complete with an unbelievable high price, or sourced off ebay at less than $5.00 each.
Recently I purchased a new authorized oem replacement belt for my TD124 from a thorens dealer in NA. Complete with the Thorens logo. It fit over the drive and driven pulleys with relative ease.
I used it for a period of 2 weeks. During that time the TT got up to speed as normal and held speed very well.
Then, paying attention to this thread, I looked into one suggested belt supplier. An ebay seller (Roger Turney) who sells out of Beverly Hills, Fla. (usa). The belts are sold in a 2-fer pack at less than $10.00 for the pair of belts. The transaction was effortless (paid via p-pal) and delivery was quick. A few days from purchase to arrival. Very nice.
The belt from Beverly Hills, Fla appears visually to be a very similar belt. Similar in thickness. Thorens belt is .031 inches thick, the Fla belt is .028 inches thick. Width is also similar. The Fla belt, however appears shorter in length. I also noted that when lightly stretching the belt between my hands that the Fla belt required more effort to expand the belt than when doing the same with the official Thorens belt. This held true while mounting the belt over the clean drive and driven pulleys of my TD124. It seemed to go on rather tight in comparison to other belts I've tried.
With the belt mounted, but the iron platter off I observed the belt while the motor was running. Belt tracking seemed ok. I took a listen with the stethoscope probe to the chassis in the area next to the pulleys. No extra noise observed. (subjective observation) So I mounted the iron platter and the outer aluminum platter. One must Wait for the platter bearing to fully seat into its thrust. (about 5 minutes in this case)
First thing: Turn unit on and observe its ability to reach operating speed and hold it. There was the problem. With the new belt the strobe indicated noticeable slow operating speed. Perhaps 1% below 33-1/3rd rpm. I allowed this to continue for 10 minutes to see of the unit would come up to speed without making any intervening adjustments to the speed pitch adjuster. Speed did not increase on its own, so I intervened and adjusted the eddy brake to allow correct operating speed. This worked. I still had some adjustment left as well.
I played a full record side and then checked the strobe to see if the operating rpm had changed. It had. It was running slow again.
That was enough for me to want to pull that Hollywood Fla. belt out of there. My conclusion; Belt length is too short. There is not enough elasticity (not enough compliance). In combination these two faults put too much tension/drag against the motor, slowing it down. This can't be a good thing.
So I looked again at my 2 week old official Thorens belt. There was indication of it having been run by evidence of a visible gray track where the belt met the pulleys. Previously, when I had removed the 2 week old belt, I had noticed considerable black belt residue adhering to the drive pulley. This I cleaned with a Q-tip and alcohol. There was quite a bit of black residue. It took some time to clean the drive pulley, where most of the belt residue had collected. This is more material transfer between belt and pulley than I have observed with using the other TD124 belts that I usually source from Elex-atelier.
I cleaned the Thorens oem belt by dropping in into a bowl of boiling water (with a little dish soap). I allowed that soak for a minute or so. Removed the belt from the hot water and wiped it by pulling the belt between a paper towel lightly pinched between the fingers of my opposite hand. Still more black residue came off the Thorens belt. This is either a very soft rubber compound, or it just likes to leave black marks. (I've had shoes like that)
Using a Q-tip dipped in alcohol, again, I cleaned the drive and driven pulleys of the TD124 just to observe if any black residue had transferred from the new Hollywood Fla. belt during the 20 minutes of run time it had seen. There was just a little bit of black showed up on the Q-tip.
I installed the Thorens belt back onto the drive and driven pulleys, installed the iron platter and outer aluminum platter. Waited 5 minutes for the thrust ball to seat into its thrust pad. Switched the Thorens on again.
With the Thorens belt, the TD124 came right up to speed as it should. Within a few rpm. And then after making an adjustment to the eddy brake controller, I had the strobe indicating dead nuts 33-1/3rd rpm and holding it. As I write this, its still holding steady.
Summary.
The two belts I received from the ebay vendor from Hollywood Fla. are cheap enough to not worry about. But I won't use these. The length is wrong and belt compliance too strong for the drive train of the TD124.
The Thorens belt, on the other hand, allows proper running speed to be reached right in the middle of the eddy brake adjuster range. Sound quality is as good with this belt as any other I've heard.
But that is only after 2 weeks of running. Time will tell as to how long this belt lasts. It certainly does shed rubber onto the pulleys. More so than I would think is good.
The third contender in my trials are the belts being sold by Elex-atelier for the TD124. These belts aren't cheap. But at $25.95 come a bit cheaper than the $36.00 Thorens belt. The Elex-atelier belts I have used for the past couple of years with no problems. Additionally, these belts don't leave nearly as much black rubber residue on the pulleys like the Thorens belt does. So, until I find a better alternative, I'm probably sticking with the Elex-atelier belt. It produces neither of the negative effects of the other two belts mentioned in this subjective, shoot from the hip comparison.
-Steve
Meanwhile; on the subject of belts for the TD124.
I'm open for suggestion on belts, whether they be the authorized version with Thorens logo on the outside ,complete with an unbelievable high price, or sourced off ebay at less than $5.00 each.
Recently I purchased a new authorized oem replacement belt for my TD124 from a thorens dealer in NA. Complete with the Thorens logo. It fit over the drive and driven pulleys with relative ease.
I used it for a period of 2 weeks. During that time the TT got up to speed as normal and held speed very well.
Then, paying attention to this thread, I looked into one suggested belt supplier. An ebay seller (Roger Turney) who sells out of Beverly Hills, Fla. (usa). The belts are sold in a 2-fer pack at less than $10.00 for the pair of belts. The transaction was effortless (paid via p-pal) and delivery was quick. A few days from purchase to arrival. Very nice.
The belt from Beverly Hills, Fla appears visually to be a very similar belt. Similar in thickness. Thorens belt is .031 inches thick, the Fla belt is .028 inches thick. Width is also similar. The Fla belt, however appears shorter in length. I also noted that when lightly stretching the belt between my hands that the Fla belt required more effort to expand the belt than when doing the same with the official Thorens belt. This held true while mounting the belt over the clean drive and driven pulleys of my TD124. It seemed to go on rather tight in comparison to other belts I've tried.
With the belt mounted, but the iron platter off I observed the belt while the motor was running. Belt tracking seemed ok. I took a listen with the stethoscope probe to the chassis in the area next to the pulleys. No extra noise observed. (subjective observation) So I mounted the iron platter and the outer aluminum platter. One must Wait for the platter bearing to fully seat into its thrust. (about 5 minutes in this case)
First thing: Turn unit on and observe its ability to reach operating speed and hold it. There was the problem. With the new belt the strobe indicated noticeable slow operating speed. Perhaps 1% below 33-1/3rd rpm. I allowed this to continue for 10 minutes to see of the unit would come up to speed without making any intervening adjustments to the speed pitch adjuster. Speed did not increase on its own, so I intervened and adjusted the eddy brake to allow correct operating speed. This worked. I still had some adjustment left as well.
I played a full record side and then checked the strobe to see if the operating rpm had changed. It had. It was running slow again.
That was enough for me to want to pull that Hollywood Fla. belt out of there. My conclusion; Belt length is too short. There is not enough elasticity (not enough compliance). In combination these two faults put too much tension/drag against the motor, slowing it down. This can't be a good thing.
So I looked again at my 2 week old official Thorens belt. There was indication of it having been run by evidence of a visible gray track where the belt met the pulleys. Previously, when I had removed the 2 week old belt, I had noticed considerable black belt residue adhering to the drive pulley. This I cleaned with a Q-tip and alcohol. There was quite a bit of black residue. It took some time to clean the drive pulley, where most of the belt residue had collected. This is more material transfer between belt and pulley than I have observed with using the other TD124 belts that I usually source from Elex-atelier.
I cleaned the Thorens oem belt by dropping in into a bowl of boiling water (with a little dish soap). I allowed that soak for a minute or so. Removed the belt from the hot water and wiped it by pulling the belt between a paper towel lightly pinched between the fingers of my opposite hand. Still more black residue came off the Thorens belt. This is either a very soft rubber compound, or it just likes to leave black marks. (I've had shoes like that)
Using a Q-tip dipped in alcohol, again, I cleaned the drive and driven pulleys of the TD124 just to observe if any black residue had transferred from the new Hollywood Fla. belt during the 20 minutes of run time it had seen. There was just a little bit of black showed up on the Q-tip.
I installed the Thorens belt back onto the drive and driven pulleys, installed the iron platter and outer aluminum platter. Waited 5 minutes for the thrust ball to seat into its thrust pad. Switched the Thorens on again.
With the Thorens belt, the TD124 came right up to speed as it should. Within a few rpm. And then after making an adjustment to the eddy brake controller, I had the strobe indicating dead nuts 33-1/3rd rpm and holding it. As I write this, its still holding steady.
Summary.
The two belts I received from the ebay vendor from Hollywood Fla. are cheap enough to not worry about. But I won't use these. The length is wrong and belt compliance too strong for the drive train of the TD124.
The Thorens belt, on the other hand, allows proper running speed to be reached right in the middle of the eddy brake adjuster range. Sound quality is as good with this belt as any other I've heard.
But that is only after 2 weeks of running. Time will tell as to how long this belt lasts. It certainly does shed rubber onto the pulleys. More so than I would think is good.
The third contender in my trials are the belts being sold by Elex-atelier for the TD124. These belts aren't cheap. But at $25.95 come a bit cheaper than the $36.00 Thorens belt. The Elex-atelier belts I have used for the past couple of years with no problems. Additionally, these belts don't leave nearly as much black rubber residue on the pulleys like the Thorens belt does. So, until I find a better alternative, I'm probably sticking with the Elex-atelier belt. It produces neither of the negative effects of the other two belts mentioned in this subjective, shoot from the hip comparison.
-Steve
Concurrent experience, then. I noticed the FL-belt was tight when I received it, and stretched it overnight before installing it - made certain it was equally tensed around the spherical object I used to stretch it.
Advantage - completely silent belt. But I had to reduce the influence of the eddy brake, to get the deck up to the proper speed. And the speed does vary - while I had perfect speed compliance with the belt that created a whirr.
I'm now running the old belt, which is thinner than both the official and the Florida belts, and also narrower - about the same length, though without the same tension, as it's been used a lot.
This belt has the deck up to speed in one spin, is completely silent, and will give up the ghost one day - so I have to find something similar.
Official belt smudges; Florida belt can't make up its mind as to speed. But I haven't tried boiling or rubbing it in alcohol. Did notice that the FL-belt left quite a bit of rubber powder after the initial hours of spin, and this may have served almost as talc and therefore reduced friction.
Will give it another try, as Kevin has had good experiences with it. Will boil and rub the belts.
Advantage - completely silent belt. But I had to reduce the influence of the eddy brake, to get the deck up to the proper speed. And the speed does vary - while I had perfect speed compliance with the belt that created a whirr.
I'm now running the old belt, which is thinner than both the official and the Florida belts, and also narrower - about the same length, though without the same tension, as it's been used a lot.
This belt has the deck up to speed in one spin, is completely silent, and will give up the ghost one day - so I have to find something similar.
Official belt smudges; Florida belt can't make up its mind as to speed. But I haven't tried boiling or rubbing it in alcohol. Did notice that the FL-belt left quite a bit of rubber powder after the initial hours of spin, and this may have served almost as talc and therefore reduced friction.
Will give it another try, as Kevin has had good experiences with it. Will boil and rub the belts.
@user510, Telemann and Kevin:
Would you recommend boiling the old belt my TD124 came with? It doesn't seem cracked or overly used, but I can't be sure. I still haven't received the new strobe lamp, so I can't vouch for its ability to come up to speed and hold it, yet.
BTW, I sent my SME 3012 for a complete overhaul as it was missing some pieces and needed a rewire since the original wires were shortened somehow and I wasn't able to install the RCA conversion.
Would you recommend boiling the old belt my TD124 came with? It doesn't seem cracked or overly used, but I can't be sure. I still haven't received the new strobe lamp, so I can't vouch for its ability to come up to speed and hold it, yet.
BTW, I sent my SME 3012 for a complete overhaul as it was missing some pieces and needed a rewire since the original wires were shortened somehow and I wasn't able to install the RCA conversion.