Expoy resin on an x-over IMO is a no, no, degrades the sound tremendously....
As the Xover is the heart of a loudspeaker ,it has to be protected by any kind of interference ie.vibrations . I don't know if that is epoxy or something else ,but it surely keeps away from coils & caps any nastiness .
they won't be re-usable for future projects .It sounds like you expect your speakers to accurately reproduce live concert sound in your living room.
I would argue that this is a futile pursuit. Speakers should be optimized for what they are. transducers, to use your term, and they should make pleasant and enjoyable music. You are setting yourself up for disappointment as no speaker will meet your impossible standard. At least not in your listening room. If I was always disappointed by my music, I would be sad....
They fail because they are given an impossible task. I prefer to like the speakers for what they really are.
I think a part of being DIY is because we are not content to the "industry standard". Of course if DIY means replicating what they do, then we'd no better off.
Speakers are far more capable than what generally available in the market.
Loudspeakers
I've spent a lot of time proving this to myself.. Some of my audiophile friends even agree (in the context of my diy speaker system)..
The BW 801, some Martin Logans, Thiels, and Oris Horns would be on my short list of least favorites.. Oddly enough my own speakers had a BOM cost that was probably not far removed from some of these, but I acquired the bits a little at a time..
I am with Dave on this one.
It does not take a hugely expensive speaker to sound good, there are some good speakers to be had for reasonable money. Once you've got some "reasonable speakers" then the source is hugely important.
I also started out believing that the speaker was the most important element and I started out 40 years ago with buying the most expensive speakers I could buy and then pour the money into an amp and lastly into a record player / FM radio.
Must have been about 10 years ago when I was on an assignment in South Korea and walked into an audio shop. I looked at some setups which had me shaking my head - a 30K Wadia player, a 15K Krell amp and some BBC 5-12A speakers. Thought the speakers were out of line. However the salesman switched in other amps, other CD players and other speakers and most definitely the CD player came out as the most important element.
Think: garbage in = garbage out.
Over the years I have come to hate metal dome tweeters and bass reflex. (By the way my wife has a hearing defect and she cannot listen to anything vocal on BR - it makes it unintelligeble) The second important item imho is what crossover frequency is being used? Often it falls smack in the middle of the vocal range - a sure recipe for a not so great sounding speaker with all its phase implications.
AM
My opinion is that the transitions from mechanical -> electrical -> mechanical as in the microphone and in the speaker are the difficult, critical components. Get those transitions right and your over a major hurddle only to face the messing up the signal somewhere else in the chain. That being said, if the speaker draws attention to itself I automatically dislike it. The music and the creators intent should be foremost; attention drawn from that is an indication of a problem with the system. Some current diy speakers such as Linkwitz's Orion and Geddes Summa can involve you with the music to distraction. I believe that, although they each solve the problem in different ways, if you get the speaker right the rest of the system can be competently modest. The active crossover in the Orions make for a simple load at the speakers which do not require fancy cabling. Geddes also seems to find it a point of distinction that modest components can sound very nice. I believe this to be the sign of outstanding design and implementation which requires understanding what salient parameters are amiable to appropriate solutions... end of rant...
Read into this what ever you like. Around 10 years ago, I was in the market for a nice pair of speakers. I auditioned everything I could get near, (B&W, Mission, Klipsch, Jamo, Tannoy, Bose to name a few). Listened to as many amp, player and speaker combos as I could get the salesman to allow before he near did his lolly, (it's still my money, Sir!).
I had almost given up, when I found a real jaw dropper, Krix Lyrix, was the speaker, source and amp was Onkyo. Nothing special here then. To say, they sounded amazing is a slight understatment. I was convinced, these were the speakers for me..........but just to be sure, I thought I might first hook them up to my trusty old Pioneer amp.......
Strangely enough, They sounded boxy, boomy, shouty, and repulsive. Same source, same speakers, same cables, same CD, same shop, same day, different amp.
Based on this one days events, IMHO, I believe in the complete audio chain.
It might also be worth noting, The Krix Lyrix is a MTM 2 way floorstander, XO point by memory is 1.9khz, The same XO point I use with my own active three ways, I believe all other designs I auditioned were crossed higher than this. Maybe I have a hearing deficiency around this point(?). All the other models had what I call 'the commercial sound', To which I feel to be the sole believer of.
Just my own expierience, nothing else.
Mick.
I had almost given up, when I found a real jaw dropper, Krix Lyrix, was the speaker, source and amp was Onkyo. Nothing special here then. To say, they sounded amazing is a slight understatment. I was convinced, these were the speakers for me..........but just to be sure, I thought I might first hook them up to my trusty old Pioneer amp.......
Strangely enough, They sounded boxy, boomy, shouty, and repulsive. Same source, same speakers, same cables, same CD, same shop, same day, different amp.
Based on this one days events, IMHO, I believe in the complete audio chain.
It might also be worth noting, The Krix Lyrix is a MTM 2 way floorstander, XO point by memory is 1.9khz, The same XO point I use with my own active three ways, I believe all other designs I auditioned were crossed higher than this. Maybe I have a hearing deficiency around this point(?). All the other models had what I call 'the commercial sound', To which I feel to be the sole believer of.
Just my own expierience, nothing else.
Mick.
No years ago , we had done such testing on x-overs , both to protect x-over layout and vibrations etc. Every type we tried destroyed the sound of the unit.
Good rubber sealer layed on the outside of the coil did a lot for microphonics....
Hi-fi play back is the reproduction of recorded music and not live music itself, there is no way for it to sound like live music, but an inverse reproduction of the original , sized and scaled accordingly with the usual microphonics
(imaging) necessary for it to sound " real ".
LOL...
DIY allow you to cater to your own taste................
BR has nothing to do with poor sound , just tells me you have been listening to poor BR speakers .
Agree , megajules and unobtainium parts are not necessary for good sound and there are many ways to skin a cat, no one has the stranglehold on that one yet ... regardless of the science !
Wow, this thread is an oldie-goldie. Drug up from the past - were it was sleeping comfortably.
Avantgarde horn system. Heard them at the Montreal show and was shocked at how bad they were. Distorted mids and highs, boomy bass. And I was not the only one to think so. They must sound better in better conditions, no way they could sell many like that. Maybe just a bad demo.
Also disappointed in the Linkwitz Orion. Not bad, I didn't hate them - just lack luster. Others said the same thing about them at RMAF, but folks have heard them sound much better. Maybe another bad demo?
Avantgarde horn system. Heard them at the Montreal show and was shocked at how bad they were. Distorted mids and highs, boomy bass. And I was not the only one to think so. They must sound better in better conditions, no way they could sell many like that. Maybe just a bad demo.
Also disappointed in the Linkwitz Orion. Not bad, I didn't hate them - just lack luster. Others said the same thing about them at RMAF, but folks have heard them sound much better. Maybe another bad demo?
Mike, Not so sure it was a bad demo, I heard exactly the same thing years ago when listening to a pair of these driven by a pair of 47 Labs class A monoblocks (Gaincards with separate power Humpties) which should have had more than enough power for obscene spls. This was at a dealer with a dedicated setup for these horns in a dedicated good room with 47 Labs Shigaraki cd transport and dac. Based on my limited experience with 47 Labs stuff in other contexts I suspect they were completely blameless wrt to what I heard.
I had similar experience with both Avante Garde and Jadis Eurythme Speakers , nasal and 2 much coloration for my taste.
I find most horn type speakers to suffer from such and similarly but not in the same way , very high efficiency type designs do have issues favoring SPL over Balance ..
I find most horn type speakers to suffer from such and similarly but not in the same way , very high efficiency type designs do have issues favoring SPL over Balance ..
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Well I'm a "Horn Guy" so I was inclined to like them, but I didn't. Overdriven gear is not to my taste. BTDT, got the ear ache.
High efficiency stuff seems to be a lot harder to get right than average gear, less forgiving. But once it's right, wow! All the hard work pays off. I will agree that many horn systems lack good tonal balance. Not really the fault of the horns, but the crossover designer. The GOTO system I heard last month was suffering the same problem. HIFIZINE The full article is not here, will come up next month.
FWIW, OB systems often lack good balance, too.
Kevin, thanks for the info. You just never know when you hear something once in a strange setting.
High efficiency stuff seems to be a lot harder to get right than average gear, less forgiving. But once it's right, wow! All the hard work pays off. I will agree that many horn systems lack good tonal balance. Not really the fault of the horns, but the crossover designer. The GOTO system I heard last month was suffering the same problem. HIFIZINE The full article is not here, will come up next month.
FWIW, OB systems often lack good balance, too.
Kevin, thanks for the info. You just never know when you hear something once in a strange setting.
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