For me it was the ever popular Velodyne subs. I visited a local high end audio shop (found them on the Velodyne site) ISO a good sub.
1st off the guy had problems hooking up the one I was interested.. the thing would not turn on. Eventually he gets the super expensive model going.. and im thinking "this doesnt sound any better than the existing junk im trying to replace"
But I will say the McIntosh center channel they had blew me away
... Just wish I could afford it.
1st off the guy had problems hooking up the one I was interested.. the thing would not turn on. Eventually he gets the super expensive model going.. and im thinking "this doesnt sound any better than the existing junk im trying to replace"
But I will say the McIntosh center channel they had blew me away
... Just wish I could afford it.
Dont believe the hype, i know what you guys are talking about, There will never be a sub that is lets say 30% better than anything else out there, this is an old technology, and like the petrol engine, its onlly some 10% more efficient or something like that, with all the EFis and turbos and do das, thats all the tweaking that can be done, i believe speakers are limited by design,, But saying that, every engine sounds different and we are dealing with sound, and its apples and oranges, everybody has there own taste, i dont like beef or pig, i love fish, am i wrong?, wrong for you but not for me, but it like the taste, i represent only one person, not anybody else, we can only talking about what we like and know.
The proof is always in the pudding, so have a bite and judge for yourself, most popular things are never that great, I mean how many top chefs do you see in Mc Donalds!LOL
The proof is always in the pudding, so have a bite and judge for yourself, most popular things are never that great, I mean how many top chefs do you see in Mc Donalds!LOL
You need to take into strong consideration the room and system that the speakers are attached to.
I used to think the same thing about the Sonus Faber Grand Pianos when I heard a pair for the first time about 4 years ago... Uninspiring. But then I heard another pair attached to a different front end (I think it was parasound + some dvda player) and I was amazed. I didn't pay much attention to the equipment since I was not in the market to buy anything that day. sorry...
Another example: I once did a comparison of some VTL tube equipment vs some Solid state stuff on Vienna Accoustic Bach speakers... If I had heard the solid state only, I would have thought that the Bach's were total crap... No dynamics, no fun... But the VTLs connected to the same speaker were absolutely musical. Toe tappingly good.
Unless, like some of the posters above, you have listened to the same speaker on several different systems, I don't think you can make an informed opinion.
I used to think the same thing about the Sonus Faber Grand Pianos when I heard a pair for the first time about 4 years ago... Uninspiring. But then I heard another pair attached to a different front end (I think it was parasound + some dvda player) and I was amazed. I didn't pay much attention to the equipment since I was not in the market to buy anything that day. sorry...
Another example: I once did a comparison of some VTL tube equipment vs some Solid state stuff on Vienna Accoustic Bach speakers... If I had heard the solid state only, I would have thought that the Bach's were total crap... No dynamics, no fun... But the VTLs connected to the same speaker were absolutely musical. Toe tappingly good.
Unless, like some of the posters above, you have listened to the same speaker on several different systems, I don't think you can make an informed opinion.
while i didn't hate them I felt them like really unintresting:
Wilson Audio Sophia
Triangle Stratos Australe
Verity Audio Fidelio
Duevel Bella Luna
Klipsch RF-7
Canton Ergo 900 DC
Energy Connoisseur C-5
What can I say?
I will go for a lisening to some Proac and ATC
I hope I will like the sound of the ATC dome or the Excel Poly in the proac D15. I am preparing a future DIY loudspeakers projects.
Wilson Audio Sophia
Triangle Stratos Australe
Verity Audio Fidelio
Duevel Bella Luna
Klipsch RF-7
Canton Ergo 900 DC
Energy Connoisseur C-5
What can I say?
I will go for a lisening to some Proac and ATC
I hope I will like the sound of the ATC dome or the Excel Poly in the proac D15. I am preparing a future DIY loudspeakers projects.
Thiel sounds
Hi! I agree with the Thiel thing although my wife likes the sound of them. Amazingly her favorite speaker in the house is an oriental KLH bookshelfer. My personal favorite is B&O Redline 60 early version with the passive oval.
"There can only be one authority in any given field and everyone in that field is trying to be the latest authority." Dr. Baldwin, one of my college profs
Hi! I agree with the Thiel thing although my wife likes the sound of them. Amazingly her favorite speaker in the house is an oriental KLH bookshelfer. My personal favorite is B&O Redline 60 early version with the passive oval.
"There can only be one authority in any given field and everyone in that field is trying to be the latest authority." Dr. Baldwin, one of my college profs
Everything in the system matters. The more profoundly good the system, the more profoundly every little detail affects the sound. For those few, the feeling of a magical high end system fully tweaked is similar to psychotropic substances introduced into ones being, i.e. hearing wood grain or seeing music. The ability to be moved nearly to tears because of a saxophone solo, with goose bumps taking you over in waves, that's where it's at.
That being said, nearly every box speaker sounds like a box.
Four exceptions (box speakers I could live with):
Amphion Argon II ($2000)
JMLab Micro Utopia BE ($6000)
Sonus Faber Auditors ($3500)
Dali Helicon 300 ($2750)
The speakers I could not live with is a very long list.
I'll stick with my Maggies (with actual ribbon tweeters rather than quasi-ribbon.) ('Three' series)
That being said, nearly every box speaker sounds like a box.
Four exceptions (box speakers I could live with):
Amphion Argon II ($2000)
JMLab Micro Utopia BE ($6000)
Sonus Faber Auditors ($3500)
Dali Helicon 300 ($2750)
The speakers I could not live with is a very long list.
I'll stick with my Maggies (with actual ribbon tweeters rather than quasi-ribbon.) ('Three' series)
Live music does it to me quite frequently.
The Bulgarian Women's Choir unamplified in St. Louis.
The Kruger Brothers in Winfield Kansas.
Ricky Skaggs and Kentucky Thunder in Lyons, Co
Ian Anderson in Boulder.
Jethro Tull 'Passion Play' in Wichita.
Emerson, Lake and Palmer in Des Moines.
And many, many, many more.
None of these shows, as fabulous as they were, will ever happen again. Did they give me goose bumps, you bet. Did these shows create in me an alternate sense of the state of the universe, absolutely.
I'll never see Michael Hedges play in person again. Six times was not enough.
I never saw Carter and Grammer before Dave Carter passed away. Zero times was definetly not enough.
But I enjoy their music, and the goose bumps, and the altered state of my awareness.
That is for me what the major goal of this game is. It's fun in and of itself, but the enjoyment of music is where it's at, ultimately.
Sorry I was off topic. I'll try answering on topic, or closer to topic.
Nearly every speaker that we try has a particular set-up, room and associated gear, that make it sound somewhere in between horrible and pretty darn good. I'm therefore hesitant to name any as being overall terrible, it's always possible that we simply haven't found the combination that works for that particular speaker. It is inherent flaws, such as too thin, inadequately braced cabinets and other design/build quality defects that I don't tolerate well. It doesn't matter what or where you hook them up, the defects are going to be there.
Nearly every speaker that we try has a particular set-up, room and associated gear, that make it sound somewhere in between horrible and pretty darn good. I'm therefore hesitant to name any as being overall terrible, it's always possible that we simply haven't found the combination that works for that particular speaker. It is inherent flaws, such as too thin, inadequately braced cabinets and other design/build quality defects that I don't tolerate well. It doesn't matter what or where you hook them up, the defects are going to be there.
Yep heard a 20k tannoy/marantz system that sounded decidedly average with no wow factor, amongst other similarly priced average sounding rigs and heard some $300 denon/bw/good home electrical cable combinations that sounded awesome, especially for the price. Hell even my mrs's daihatsu stereo shocked me once, rather clear for a car. Weird how it just seems to come so much down to room, setup and equipment matching, with the music enjoyment factor being the ultimate result of any system.
My relatively modest, non diy rig does wonders for most people who listen, guess just a lucky match and setup. Sometimes I think it sounds crappy, especially if not dialed into the room right, when it is dialed and it's warmed up nice, the scratch of guitar strings being deftly plucked and the sizzle of a sitar are a sight to behold, just like any other harmonious system.
My relatively modest, non diy rig does wonders for most people who listen, guess just a lucky match and setup. Sometimes I think it sounds crappy, especially if not dialed into the room right, when it is dialed and it's warmed up nice, the scratch of guitar strings being deftly plucked and the sizzle of a sitar are a sight to behold, just like any other harmonious system.
Last edited:
MIght be hard to jsut pop this open.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Cross-over sealing with six kilos of resin
i wonder what kind of dirty secrets they're trying to hide with that.. hmm.
i second (or is it 3rd?) the thiels. the pair i bought was even worse sounding than the mission m35s that i was trying to replace. the thiels ended becoming it's surrounds. besides the improved coherency, everything else about them were just meh.
Agree and while not bad , i cannot get into the sound of most horn speakers especially considering the effort and prices they are selling those things for today...
Biggest big deal disappointment for sound .... B&W nautilus system ...
Bad sounding ..... whats so funny about the worst sounding speakers i have ever heard , is that they are Panel speakers and also the best sounding I have ever heard incorporated Panel speakers .......... go figure
Panel speakers suffer from setup and equipment synergy more than any .......
Expoy resin on an x-over IMO is a no, no, degrades the sound tremendously....
An interesting thread, however I don't think we can draw any solid conclusions from it. Listening impressions, in my opinion, are important, but too subjective for a real comparison. In addition to the human variable, there are differences in room interactions (this uncontrolled variable alone invalidates comparison), signal source equipment, source material, and so on.
I think we can all agree that $100 K speakers might not be worth it (though they'd probably look awesome ). But I think this discussion is rapidly moving towards personal preference, and design philosophy.
JF
I think we can all agree that $100 K speakers might not be worth it (though they'd probably look awesome
). But I think this discussion is rapidly moving towards personal preference, and design philosophy.JF
"Let's not go on about who killed who, this is supposed to be a happy occasion..." - Monty Python
I think most decent systems can sound good. Just different and accenting different nuances of the REPRODUCED music. Nothing is right or wrong and so we tweak it to our preference and for our enjoyment. Is it wrong to enjoy the limited range reproduction of a cheap CD boom box on the beach? I still like to listen to low quality Mp3 on my iphone because music is awesome. I also enjoy trying to squeak out more nuances by upgrading and tweaking my home system. Does my room matter? Yes, and I can change the sound by doing things to it (if she lets me...). Do my speakers matter? Yes and I can change the sound by doing things with them. I could go on, right?
What should REPRODUCED music sound like? musicians and their instruments sound different in different venues, using different instruments, amplifiers, pickups, guitar picks, moods and don't forget the recording apparatus, mixers, producers, and on and on. Clearly there is no pure music "sound" to obtain, only opinion and subjective values. So I want it to sound "real" to my ears, whatever that is and I can only tell you that in the moment.
Generally, Unless I really screw up, it sounds good to great with different aspects better under different situations. But we are splitting hairs about an absolutely subjective experience. That is why I am trying the DIY route. It is crazy expensive to buy and try all this nice higher end stuff, it is very hard to audition in ones own living environment and as we seem to be noticing here, it really has no bearing on reality to listen to a demo system in a store, unless I buy the whole system and build a listening room just like theirs.
What is going to sound the best? My BIB's with Fostex 208 sigma powered by my DIY 300B SE tube amp because I built them and will tweak the sounds to my preference and I won't care if someone else thinks the sound stage is a little off, because, I built them. How fun is that?
If I hear a "high end" speaker that sound like junk, it probably is not simply the speaker's fault. Someone screwed up the system somewhere, with poor choices, or something else is wrong.
Was this a rant? Sorry....
I think most decent systems can sound good. Just different and accenting different nuances of the REPRODUCED music. Nothing is right or wrong and so we tweak it to our preference and for our enjoyment. Is it wrong to enjoy the limited range reproduction of a cheap CD boom box on the beach? I still like to listen to low quality Mp3 on my iphone because music is awesome. I also enjoy trying to squeak out more nuances by upgrading and tweaking my home system. Does my room matter? Yes, and I can change the sound by doing things to it (if she lets me...). Do my speakers matter? Yes and I can change the sound by doing things with them. I could go on, right?
What should REPRODUCED music sound like? musicians and their instruments sound different in different venues, using different instruments, amplifiers, pickups, guitar picks, moods and don't forget the recording apparatus, mixers, producers, and on and on. Clearly there is no pure music "sound" to obtain, only opinion and subjective values. So I want it to sound "real" to my ears, whatever that is and I can only tell you that in the moment.
Generally, Unless I really screw up, it sounds good to great with different aspects better under different situations. But we are splitting hairs about an absolutely subjective experience. That is why I am trying the DIY route. It is crazy expensive to buy and try all this nice higher end stuff, it is very hard to audition in ones own living environment and as we seem to be noticing here, it really has no bearing on reality to listen to a demo system in a store, unless I buy the whole system and build a listening room just like theirs.
What is going to sound the best? My BIB's with Fostex 208 sigma powered by my DIY 300B SE tube amp because I built them and will tweak the sounds to my preference and I won't care if someone else thinks the sound stage is a little off, because, I built them. How fun is that?
If I hear a "high end" speaker that sound like junk, it probably is not simply the speaker's fault. Someone screwed up the system somewhere, with poor choices, or something else is wrong.
Was this a rant? Sorry....
In judging speakers we need to remember that they are transducers, not musical instruments (or at least they should be). Hence I really doubt using heavily processed recording like Tom Petty would be a valid assessment tool.
One needs to use unamplified music, this leaves acoustic instruments and vocals like jazz or classical recording. Better if self-recorded so the recording environment is known.
I found it most important that speakers should:
- Cover full-range from very low to high frequency. This rules out all bookshelves.
- Have reasonably flat on axis, and uniform polar response off-axis, this rules out all typical box speakers with their baffle steps. This also rule out large panel speakers due to lobing.
So in my view we are left with dipoles and omni-directional speakers. Perhaps also horns or waveguides, but that would need a extremely large construction for the lower frequencies.
Or just go to the concert.
As per the original question, yes I've been dissapointed or impressed with speakers like the Sonus Fabers. But try to put a different mindset when hearing them. I particularly like the engineering of Bose wave system and they perform quite well playing trumpets and such. But no way that they would play large scale orchestra. It's just physics and we have to be fair.
ps. I was at Montreux Jazz Festival last week and I thought their sound system needs more SPL, more smack and transients
and the vocal was harsh and bright. But that's amplified music! They're simply amps and big speakers not the real thing.
One needs to use unamplified music, this leaves acoustic instruments and vocals like jazz or classical recording. Better if self-recorded so the recording environment is known.
I found it most important that speakers should:
- Cover full-range from very low to high frequency. This rules out all bookshelves.
- Have reasonably flat on axis, and uniform polar response off-axis, this rules out all typical box speakers with their baffle steps. This also rule out large panel speakers due to lobing.
So in my view we are left with dipoles and omni-directional speakers. Perhaps also horns or waveguides, but that would need a extremely large construction for the lower frequencies.
Or just go to the concert.
As per the original question, yes I've been dissapointed or impressed with speakers like the Sonus Fabers. But try to put a different mindset when hearing them. I particularly like the engineering of Bose wave system and they perform quite well playing trumpets and such. But no way that they would play large scale orchestra. It's just physics and we have to be fair.
ps. I was at Montreux Jazz Festival last week and I thought their sound system needs more SPL, more smack and transients
and the vocal was harsh and bright. But that's amplified music! They're simply amps and big speakers not the real thing.
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.