I am looking to get into the hobby. I am thinking I would like to build a kit and am considering poddwatt, ank and bottle head. The bottle head seduktor set amp and smash preamp with the reduction phono amp seem like a good set up at a decent price point to get myself started. Where I live I can’t physically see or hear any tube amps. Looking for some input about sound and quality. Thanks
With 4w per channel SEP and no global feedback, more important than efficiency is a flat impedance curve… now it is possible to get away with saying that it has no global feedback and still use Scade feedback to reduce output impedance — a pentode on the front end gives a clue that that might be the case. The most well known example of this topology with the EL84 is the RH84.
I have used 3.5w SET with <90 dB speakers with flattish impedance. You should be fine to unless you have a giant room or like to listen at hearing damaging levels.
With an SE84 you should be able to get away with adding a volume control to the front of the amp, EL84 doesn’t need much driver. It would be sucficient for CD in… others maybe not.
BTW, one has to work really hard to make a bad EL84 amp.
dave
I have used 3.5w SET with <90 dB speakers with flattish impedance. You should be fine to unless you have a giant room or like to listen at hearing damaging levels.
With an SE84 you should be able to get away with adding a volume control to the front of the amp, EL84 doesn’t need much driver. It would be sucficient for CD in… others maybe not.
BTW, one has to work really hard to make a bad EL84 amp.
dave
If you're up for building your own chassis and purchasing the individual parts, you should look at tubelab's pcb's. There is a ton of info here on building them and you'll wind up with a first class amp that can be as simple or boutique as you want.
The SSE would be the best place to start for a beginner; it uses current production, reasonably priced tubes that can be run in triode mode for that sweet SET sound, or ultra linear mode for more power with less efficient speakers. With the addition of a few switches, you can even switch between the different modes.
The SSE would be the best place to start for a beginner; it uses current production, reasonably priced tubes that can be run in triode mode for that sweet SET sound, or ultra linear mode for more power with less efficient speakers. With the addition of a few switches, you can even switch between the different modes.
Room acoustics will be a big part of what you build. If you have paneling, cinder block, hardwood floors, etc you will have a bright room.
You can adjust your room by adding drapes, throw rugs, book shelves, ect to help control the reflections.
This is as important as any amp design/speaker selection.
You can adjust your room by adding drapes, throw rugs, book shelves, ect to help control the reflections.
This is as important as any amp design/speaker selection.
Also have a look at Transcendent Transcendent Sound
DIY Specialist in Vacuum Tube OTL Amplifiers
Bruce Rozenblit is the designer. His kits are based on his patent for OTL amps.
You can build his kit following detailed 'paint by number' instructions and/or you can acquire his books which offer up designs for many of his amps which helps you understand the design and potentially take on a scratch build. This can be a progression as you get more comfortable with DIY. There is a quite loyal and helpful community of builders on his site.
The sound is quite good and you avoid the cost of output transformers. The downside is more tubes to buy/replace.
DIY Specialist in Vacuum Tube OTL Amplifiers
Bruce Rozenblit is the designer. His kits are based on his patent for OTL amps.
You can build his kit following detailed 'paint by number' instructions and/or you can acquire his books which offer up designs for many of his amps which helps you understand the design and potentially take on a scratch build. This can be a progression as you get more comfortable with DIY. There is a quite loyal and helpful community of builders on his site.
The sound is quite good and you avoid the cost of output transformers. The downside is more tubes to buy/replace.
Do you want a point-to-point, PCB, or a turret board build? Depending on what you want to do, an extremely simple SE build can easily be done with just a few tag strips off the tube sockets themselves.
A very simple and high quality stereo SE amplifier can easily be put together with just power/output transformers, a single 12AT7 and a pair of EL84 or 6V6 and a handful of resistors and caps. It all depends on how much you want to do on your own. P2P or tagstrip/turret wiring is more authentic, but a PCB is easier...
A very simple and high quality stereo SE amplifier can easily be put together with just power/output transformers, a single 12AT7 and a pair of EL84 or 6V6 and a handful of resistors and caps. It all depends on how much you want to do on your own. P2P or tagstrip/turret wiring is more authentic, but a PCB is easier...
I have definitely considered the transcendent. But by the time I build the preamp and a phono amp it is starting to add up. It wouldn’t be bad if I had some of my old equipment that I sold about twenty years ago but I need to get everything including the speakers and turntable. I am leaning towards the Elekit TU 8200 amp paired with TU 8500 or the bottle head seductor amp with smash preamp and reduction phono amp. Thoughts? I don’t want a system that I will not be satisfied with to save a few dollars though. Thanks for all the input so far.
Bottlehead kits are pricy, but proven, solid, and high quality, not bad choices at all. Little bit of room to play with upgrades easily later on too, less easy on a PCB...
Elekit looks too much like cheap ebay gear to me, even though they are also pretty nice, but that's all up to you really...
I'm a huge fan of EL84 in general, so I like the Seductor. The only real drawback (if you're a tube-roller) is that the input tubes are 6AU6, a fantastic tube, but not as huge of a market in different varieties to try out if that's your thing. Excellent choice if 4 watts will do, and if you are building high-efficiency speakers you'll be fine with it most likely. Only way they could make it better would be to offer a version with a 6V6 option.
The Smash preamps are nice, the 4P1L is a really nice tube...
I say Bottlehead.
Elekit looks too much like cheap ebay gear to me, even though they are also pretty nice, but that's all up to you really...
I'm a huge fan of EL84 in general, so I like the Seductor. The only real drawback (if you're a tube-roller) is that the input tubes are 6AU6, a fantastic tube, but not as huge of a market in different varieties to try out if that's your thing. Excellent choice if 4 watts will do, and if you are building high-efficiency speakers you'll be fine with it most likely. Only way they could make it better would be to offer a version with a 6V6 option.
The Smash preamps are nice, the 4P1L is a really nice tube...
I say Bottlehead.
I will have some soon.
Here is some example: P-P phase splitter.
The board contains one error, and will be redesigned. It stays near tubes for better convection, so any tubes can be used, either triodes-pentodes, or double triodes, connected by short wires or resistors.
Here is some example: P-P phase splitter.
The board contains one error, and will be redesigned. It stays near tubes for better convection, so any tubes can be used, either triodes-pentodes, or double triodes, connected by short wires or resistors.
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Thanks for the input. I also am concerned that Elekit may not be of the quality I am looking for. I am definetly leaning towards the Bottlehead gear. I am thinking I may start with the phono preamp and see how the build goes and the quality of the kit. It is relatively cheap and if I decide not to continue building bottlehead I will have a phono preamp that I will need anyways. I do have a little bit of a concern about the 4 watt output but if I like the amp I can always build another running them mono at 8 watts. Thiughts?
I would love a set of those when they are ready
I think it all depends on what sort of speakers you intend to build. I can get plenty of headroom and usable volume out of my old cheap 40" fisher cabs using a mere watt (a sweet 6SN7GT push-pull build does this very well) and with something built up to be efficient enough to run with 3-5 watts or so you should be happy with the bottlehead gear.
Do you have a particular speaker style in mind? That will help us a bit more on figuring out what would be suitable.
Not that you asked, but as far as speakers I'm a big fan of cornu clones, and the karlsonator builds lately, I've got a stack of foamboard ready to build a pair of 20" cornus. The last pair i heard were being pushed quite nicely with a basic 6V6 triode SE build, and sounded fantastic, while being able to crank to painful volumes in a moderately sized room. The foamcore threads in the fullrange forum have some neat designs that are easy to prototype up quickly to find what you want, and then you can turn around and build one in wood.
What quality or qualities are you looking for?
The two Elekits in the picture would likely be finished and playing sound while one is still sanding and gluing on bottlehead kits. ( Save the PM's guys - the TU-875 is NOT for sale ... )
Elekit vice Bottlehead is really an apples to oranges comparison, imo.
One is built on a PCB in a stamped metal chassis. PCB construction offers a high probability of success, with little risk of ground loops, and other vexing issues. The TU-879S I have at our lake house uses a mosfet ripple filter, and DC on the filaments. It is stone, cold, silent, on 96 dB Klipsch speakers. You can't even tell it is switched on. I did convert it to use 6V6's, because I like 6V6's, and I could.
The other uses point to point wiring, and comes with unfinished lumber for a chassis. Point to point is fine, sometimes fun, but there are more opportunities for mistakes, and other issues, like hum and ground loops; a realistic concern when you are dealing with high sensitivity speakers. Bridging it to get 8 watts sounds nice, but it may not sound the same bridged, as it does in stereo. Someone who owns one might be able to answer this. I think there is a bottlehead forum on the aptly named audio asylum - you might get more accurate information on their products there, since it appears none of us ( including me ) have any first hand experience with them.
I don't necessarily share the point of view that it is harder to modify a pcb based circuit than it is a point to point circuit, but if you are not the type of person to modify circuits ( why would you even want to? It looks like they went to a lot of work to engineer a well designed circuit ), it doesn't make any difference.
I'm not an Elekit fanboy, and don't want to come across that way, I just thought the reference to them as having the appearance of "cheap ebay gear" was seriously uninformed.
I'm actually an unabashed Tubelab fanboy, and if you want a real DIY experience, I think the SSE is a great choice. Looking forward to Wavebourn's offerings.
Win W5JAG
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EleKits are very good quality; or put another way very complete, easy to build, sound engineering, good value. Made and designed in Japan. They use an enclosure that looks decent at a low cost; if you want to spend another $100 you can throw a big thick slab of bespoke, engraved or silkscreened, maybe anodized, aluminum on the front. Nothing stopping you.
TubeLab would be a bit of a project for a first-timer, but are definitely recommended.
Transcendent Sound has a good reputation, unique circuits but can be a bit finicky; you will want to avail yourself of the forum. The Grounded Grid preamp is within your budget, the amps not so much.
For a more DIY approach you could look at the the SP-14 preamp from Tubes 4 HiFi dotcom. Very highly recommended, not expensive.
Power Amp choice is much more a "fit you" rather than "fits everyone" situation. There are too many options and I wouldn't want to limit you to what I like.
TubeLab would be a bit of a project for a first-timer, but are definitely recommended.
Transcendent Sound has a good reputation, unique circuits but can be a bit finicky; you will want to avail yourself of the forum. The Grounded Grid preamp is within your budget, the amps not so much.
For a more DIY approach you could look at the the SP-14 preamp from Tubes 4 HiFi dotcom. Very highly recommended, not expensive.
Power Amp choice is much more a "fit you" rather than "fits everyone" situation. There are too many options and I wouldn't want to limit you to what I like.
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I know it looks like I am all over the map but after a discussion with Bob Latino (VTA ST70 kid) and a discussion with a gentleman from bottlehead I think the higher power of the ST 70 will better suit my needs allowing me to have a better selection of speakers to choose as a match for the system. To get the headroom and the volume intensity that I may want on occasion I would need speakers @about 95 dB sensitivity and up. I need to say that both gentlemen I spoke with were very helpful and seemed very honest in helping me out.
I would also like to thank those who offered me help here. I will post an update when I get things rolling.
I would also like to thank those who offered me help here. I will post an update when I get things rolling.
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