Show me the IMD on the plots? Against red book any grot appears to be well below the noise floor of 16/44.1 and by implication well below the noise floor of any microphone used in a studio/concert hall.
Yes. But when distance and language fail us all we have left are measurements. And in the case of redbook we can see that that $349 CD player, on the test suite carried out is better than the source material. Therefore transparent until proven otherwise.
I need about 4 years to clear my project backlog before I get there, but it is on the LTE plan for my system. But 5 channels of DAC is needed in my case so not an evening's work.
The sentiment is well understood, and of course quite logical. It does assume the measurements capture all there is to hear. However, I would say that IME listening tests would reveal some differences, probably small, yet enough to successfully ABX, in the sound of dacs otherwise assumed to be transparent based on measurements looking better than CD specifications. I would actually be quite surprised if you couldn't hear a difference is sound quality playing a CD on the Marantz player vs through DAC-3. That being said, I have been surprised before and it could happen again.
Cheap shot John and beneath you. I merely asked for someone to point out what could be improved on that for playing back redbook CDs. Not the first time these measurements have been posted and still no one has pointed out where the improvements could be. So I can only assume snobbery that something so affordable cannot sound good?
looks like the CD5004 is available second hand for around $100 and the newer CD5005 new is only around the $180 mark. If we could come up with a suitable protocol I'd chip in to get one to be shipped around for tests.
That's cheap enough to try out. Which one do you recommend?
EDIT: The ones on ebay cost as much as new, or more. That's the way it looks at the moment.
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Mark: very good question and not one I can immediately answer. The CD5004 we have the measurements for and at least on paper is as good as redbook gets. That uses the CS4392. The newer model uses the CS4398 which is better specs but we have no measurements to know if it is as well implemented. If it were me I would get the older one.
Of course the killer in the comparisons is ensuring like for like or at least similar digital filter implementations. Otherwise there is a risk we are just chosing a prefence on that.
Of course the killer in the comparisons is ensuring like for like or at least similar digital filter implementations. Otherwise there is a risk we are just chosing a prefence on that.
If so, then they must not be completely transparent.
There are probably other reasons too. ESS says sigma delta dacs exhibit transient distortion when quickly going from loud to soft due to state variable settling. The distortion does not show up in tests with steady tones.They say some people can hear it, and that they have found a way to make it smaller.
If digital filters sound different then the are not transparent. But which one is 'right' 
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What sort of transients are ESS talking about and do they actually appear in the digital recordings we buy? I can only find this http://www.esstech.com/files/4314/4095/4318/sabrewp.pdf which skirts around the scale of the issue so I have to file in 'flooby'.
. What sort of transients are ESS talking about and do they actually appear in the digital recordings we buy? I can only find this http://www.esstech.com/files/4314/4095/4318/sabrewp.pdf which skirts around the scale of the issue so I have to file in 'flooby'.
If digital filters sound different then the are not transparent. But which one is 'right'
What sort of transients are ESS talking about
Exactly, with respect to the filters. I suspect none are right. It's a problem, but at least I can say DAC-3 filtering seems to be very well implemented.
Regarding transients, Martin Mallinson had a little more to say about it in one of his youtube videos, IIRC. I suspect that, oh, maybe drum percussion followed by decaying cymbal tails might show it. Have to compare some different good dacs to find out.
I think that Marantz is a good 'bang for the buck' and now that OPPO is gone, perhaps the best choice for people with an easy acceptance of audio quality. I am sure that other more expensive CD players, like MSB, sound better to more serious listeners. The OPPO's and similar priced products may or may not be better than a cheap Marantz, but they DO offer SACD, Blue Ray, etc. that gives us more choice. I like that. Personally I don't like CD much so far.
I use my PC and a dac to play CDs. Why use anything else? I can play from files or from the CD drive. Can also play audio for streaming video from youtube or Amazon Prime, etc.
There are small PCs that people use for home entertainment center use. That might be a good solution to keep it compact and fit on a shelf.
There are small PCs that people use for home entertainment center use. That might be a good solution to keep it compact and fit on a shelf.
Denon made the point to me that they no longer manufactured CD players because they put high performance DVD machines out instead. I do have a DVD-5900, and it sounds very good. It just takes forever to load and identify the media as a CD. I still like my Denon DCD-S10 that I've worked on. Sounds better than stock.
So a great CD player will be used unless you are willing to use a DVD player.
As for audio stores, I did work at a couple of very good ones (long gone). Two main reasons why they don't exist in great numbers anymore are:
1.) Salespeople were no longer knowledgeable and would compete on price instead
2.) Salespeople no longer had the customer's best interests at heart. The public figured this out and unsurprisingly bought on price after doing their own research.
The industry killed itself. Pure greed on the part of some outfits didn't help. High yearly quotas killed the spirit of the industry. Pioneer, Sony and other Japanese firms were at the heart of that nasty practice. They force-fed dealers beyond their ability to sell normally, and created another reason why stores dropped prices on equipment.
Younger people do really like good sound. With the market going the way it is they simply opted out. It doesn't take a genius to see the public has been lied to for years (false claims). The nonsense surrounding the "High end" market simply adds to that. John, I hate to say it, but what you've been doing is exactly the problem with the industry. All the system tweaks are the problem. Cable lifts - really (not you John)? Secret quantum devices and the like, pure nonsense (that's where your name has problems now John). Everyone participating in that kind of marketing is doing their part to kill the industry. Just look at the cable market. Greed again, and down right lies too.
-Chris
So a great CD player will be used unless you are willing to use a DVD player.
As for audio stores, I did work at a couple of very good ones (long gone). Two main reasons why they don't exist in great numbers anymore are:
1.) Salespeople were no longer knowledgeable and would compete on price instead
2.) Salespeople no longer had the customer's best interests at heart. The public figured this out and unsurprisingly bought on price after doing their own research.
The industry killed itself. Pure greed on the part of some outfits didn't help. High yearly quotas killed the spirit of the industry. Pioneer, Sony and other Japanese firms were at the heart of that nasty practice. They force-fed dealers beyond their ability to sell normally, and created another reason why stores dropped prices on equipment.
Younger people do really like good sound. With the market going the way it is they simply opted out. It doesn't take a genius to see the public has been lied to for years (false claims). The nonsense surrounding the "High end" market simply adds to that. John, I hate to say it, but what you've been doing is exactly the problem with the industry. All the system tweaks are the problem. Cable lifts - really (not you John)? Secret quantum devices and the like, pure nonsense (that's where your name has problems now John). Everyone participating in that kind of marketing is doing their part to kill the industry. Just look at the cable market. Greed again, and down right lies too.
-Chris
Actually, I still do believe in cables and tweaks. They work very often for me. I have no opinion on cable lifts, as I do not use them myself. I resent being called less than honest, repeatedly. I make a special effort to make sure that what I say here is absolutely my honest opinion (and experience) on how to make audio sound its best. I do a pretty good job at keeping my clients (Jack is not one of my clients, so he had an advantage) from overselling my name or my products with false claims. Sometimes, I fail to do so, not because I didn't try, but I sometimes get blindsided by marketing. This recently happened with Parasound with the new JC-5 power amp. It does not have 12W of Class A power, with 400W into 8 ohms,Class A-B. It only has 6 or even less Class A watts depending on how the bias is set. I have complained about this to Parasound, as it is an embarrassment that will be found when the product is tested by Stereophile. I do my best, but I don't run everything and everybody.
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For an inexpensive digital out only transport, the Cambridge CXC seems to track and perform well even with CD-RW. One of the studios I was at used on for CD-R playback of daily mixes and it seemed to sound correct compared to the master. Of course that was played back through an expensive DAC of some brand I can't remember (Bryston?).
With it's lower reflectivity, lower contrast ratio and low recovered signal, CD-RW can be an acid test for tracking and decoding, never mind the fact that most recorded CD-RW discs are usually quite poor in most analog parameters such as I3/I11, symmetry and jitter compared to molded discs.
If I had to get another relatively inexpensive CD transport I might choose the Cambridge. I'm still using my old OPPO which works fine as a bit source for an Auralic Vega DAC which I am really happy with. If I had more time I'd bug the OPPO's decoder to light an E32 indicator, but that is project #2563...
Cheers!
Howie
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