For as long as jn is alive and around here, we shouldn’t voice such an argument
This HF impedance is uncontrolled. It is not designed to be Z1 at f1 and Z2 at f2.
It is the result of the cable routing which is what happens to be.
It is the spatial slave of the needs for amp multi-functionality. (A speakers pair, B speakers pair, A+B speaker pairs, Speakers Off).
As in most cases there is no twisted pair or zip cord conductors from PCB to Sp. terminals but single wires, each with different routing, the undefined parameters are for each channel alone and then btn the two channels:
C,L btn ‘Speaker +’ and ‘Speaker Return’ conductors.
C,L btn the ‘Speaker +’ conductor and Chassis.
C,L btn the ‘Speaker Return’ conductor and Chassis.
So, it is not like the controlled impedance of the output L//R combo (your sin is the word ‘unrolled’).
But even for this combo, the tough guy has objected “Where goes the magnetic centroid with freq?” (skin, proximity effects and other arcane
words )How many commercial amps for home use were designed with HF in mind? (*)
In our time the home environment is RF (and above) dirty.
Now there is a need to start think and measure differently, adding HF in the picture
George
(*)1. Notable exception, some professional designers who are members here.
2. I've seen tube era PA amps with immense attention to RF immunity.
That of course also brought us Barlows law. If I have a wire with a resistance of 100 ohms per 1000' and we apply 50 volts to a 100' length, what steady state current will result? (Lest I be inaccurate in initial conditions use 99.99% copper with a teflon insulation at STP on planet Earth at local noon.)
The important part is how the loudspeakers are adjusted. Pink noise is played and using a "C" weighted SPL meter (Class II) all drivers are set to the same level. That is because there can be as much as a 4 db difference between drivers. So the 10 ga, cable having more LF that the 14 ga. would have been turned down a bit, thus resulting in the apparent loss of HF in use, the opposite of what would be expected.
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Sigh..
That is not what you stated initially. Here's what you said..
Your latest version is easily logical, and certainly expected.
Your previous version said 10 guage was lossier at HF than the 14.
It is important to be as accurate as possible in a technical discussion.
jn
No first principles did not give us Barlows law, flawed experiments that BTW essentially did not include confounders did. Barlow's law was discredited long before quantum mechanics.
No more 20 questions. Can't answer anyway since there is no information about how much the wire will heat up.
I read both quotes to say the mis-wired part had less HF. How do you read that?
The mis-wired part was wired with 10 gauge. I neither said nor implied that the 10 gauge wire passes less HF energy.
Adequate information was given to determine the heating effects.
I'll give you a hint at 50 volts into 10 ohms Ohm's law would predict 5 amps. Try it and the correct answer is the steady state will be zero amps.
Now what would the voltage be across the ten ohm wire if we used a constant current source to provide 1 picoamp? (Same test conditions.)
Agreed, yet and in most cases 10 gauge affects the top end vs 14g , due to what it does in the bass. How high in frequency do you want to see RLC , I can do 100K. I also have 3 different type of resistors , each exhibit different sonic's with one being horrible, plan to put up RLC on them to see if we can see anything.
Jeez does that mean I shouldn't buy an electric car? I just tried my 12.6V battery and a power resistor nothing special. You must have some funky wire maybe it just blew open, I have to admit I didn't check the guage tables and fusing currents. That would be a good trick question.
EDIT - borderline that's ~ #30 wire which fuses in 10sec at 10A. Is it fair to go home and take some #30 magnet wire and set my supply to 5A constant current and see what happens? BTW my well pump puts 100A through 100' of 0000 (25e-6 Ohm/ft) welding cable the drop is as predicted and works everytime.
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Not look in for much more than a 1/4 of a volt drop on the well pump I take it !
Mike Wright used it for speaker wire on his speakers.
So if I am understanding correctly it wasn't that ES's /#10 wire had a problem with attenuating the high frequency but just the opposite it did not attenuate the lower frequencies and tilted the response curve bringing up the bottom end. I assume if the installers had done that with all the high frequency devices it would have been easy enough to just apply a little eq rather than pull all that wire but for only one device or group of devices on that one run there was no easy solution besides replacing that one run of wire.
There really was a point behind the question However you are welcome to try it. I suspect the result will be a damaged power supply!
And if you do a picoamp into 10 ohms, what bandwidth do you require to get the signal above the noise?
It used to be amusing to see how you misinterpreted things. Then it became boring. Now it is annoying.
It just ain't worth the grief to finish the issue.
Hawksford's Essex Echo was not something I ever really looked at before. There are some interesting issues in his measurement method and how I did solder joint distortion measurements. We both might disagree with his conclusions but for very different reasons. But quite simply it is not worth going into it, as no matter what I write it seems to arouse noise and distortion.
BTY, Scott there ain't no cable directional distortion due to microdiode action!
SY, My tests show any difference in distortion due to solders is below any reasonable threshold of perception for even hundreds of joints!
George, Contrary to Scott's assertions, there really are very interesting effects in signal transport through audio cables when there are very low currents. It results in charge interaction between the signal and conductor remaining, but virtually no charge interaction between information carrying charges. So although the total charge transfer remains constant information is lost.
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You win the prize of the day! Please send me the shipping/handling charge and I will send it to you/
Look at your statement again..I'll hilite the relevant point.
Notice you did not say one speaker was miswired, you said one tweeter. Later, you changed it to one speaker..
Ed, I'm only quoting your statements..
jn
Yes there was 400' of 10 gauge wire going to one tweeter. If you look at my posts when I mean a loudspeaker, I write "Loudspeaker." When we would fire up a row of DRIVERS there would be more energy from the one that was incorrectly wired.
How is this not clear?
Simple. You said you use #10 for the low frequency drivers, and #14 for the HF.
You attributed the loss of hf to using #10 on the tweeter.
Then you changed the story. Now it's because you leveled the lf content on a multiway, which is more realistic.
Now you play word games.
As I said, it is important to provide accurate technical content to a technical discussion.
jn
I did not attribute the loss to the 10 gauge wire. I reported that there was a difference and expected that that would raise reasonable questions and discussions.
you said this:
simon7000 said:
Yes, you provided a cause and you provided an effect. What you didn't do was accurately report what happened until questioned. So yes, your errors did lead to questions and discussions.
jn
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