Worth noting .... How the Xmax is calculated makes a huge difference in our figures
Hey guys, you all might find this interesting, I know i did:
The 15LB100's published Xmax rating is VERY conservative as it turns out ..... If you take the given voicecoil length & magnetic gap depth and apply the current industry standard formula for calculating linear Xmax (the same formula that 18sound , B&C and some others use) you end up with a much more competitive figure!
If you apply Faital Pro's formula you end up with an even less conservative number ....
Take a look
The 15LB100 is truly an amazing value .....
I know a guy who has both the 15LB100 and it's bigger brother the 18-500 .... He says they are using the exact same motor for both drivers (the front plate , back plate , ferrite material size , pole vent design , etc etc all look the same to him, however he cannot measure the voicecoil length without destroying the driver) ..
Hey guys, you all might find this interesting, I know i did:
The 15LB100's published Xmax rating is VERY conservative as it turns out ..... If you take the given voicecoil length & magnetic gap depth and apply the current industry standard formula for calculating linear Xmax (the same formula that 18sound , B&C and some others use) you end up with a much more competitive figure!
If you apply Faital Pro's formula you end up with an even less conservative number ....
Take a look
The 15LB100 is truly an amazing value .....
I know a guy who has both the 15LB100 and it's bigger brother the 18-500 .... He says they are using the exact same motor for both drivers (the front plate , back plate , ferrite material size , pole vent design , etc etc all look the same to him, however he cannot measure the voicecoil length without destroying the driver) ..
that's pretty close in motor spec to a 15tbx40 which gets a "9mm" xmax rating
https://i.imgur.com/P9bFgFi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/P9bFgFi.jpg
Yes , exactly...
The 15LB100 not only has great parameters for a 40hz high-order sub (Paraflex , Super Planar 8th etc) , but would also be phenomenal in Kickbin tuned high-order cabinets .... Additionally It can be used in wideband kickbin tops!
Very versatile , definitely a multipurpose driver
It can do a lot for it's low budget pricing..
Good catch
Freddi,
Right, looks similar in a lot of ways ... The Re, Le, BL, moving mass, all pretty close .. ...
The Vas is higher on the B&C and that accounts for the lower Qes & Qts, and also accounts for the lower Fs ................
With some more break-in time the 15LB100 would see an increase in Vas, and a lowering in Q along with a lowering of Fs ....
The B&C may endure more extreme abuse with high levels of power ..... USRFobiwan's report about the 15LB100's voicecoil producing an odor could be an indication that we probably cannot get away with abusing it with such extremes in the long term.
If you read the reviews for the 18-500 many people say they are able to drive it with power that exceeds it's rating regularly and it does survive , but we are talking about the 1000w range from what i gather, so not completely outlandish by today's standards ....
Freddi,
Right, looks similar in a lot of ways ... The Re, Le, BL, moving mass, all pretty close .. ...
The Vas is higher on the B&C and that accounts for the lower Qes & Qts, and also accounts for the lower Fs ................
With some more break-in time the 15LB100 would see an increase in Vas, and a lowering in Q along with a lowering of Fs ....
The B&C may endure more extreme abuse with high levels of power ..... USRFobiwan's report about the 15LB100's voicecoil producing an odor could be an indication that we probably cannot get away with abusing it with such extremes in the long term.
If you read the reviews for the 18-500 many people say they are able to drive it with power that exceeds it's rating regularly and it does survive , but we are talking about the 1000w range from what i gather, so not completely outlandish by today's standards ....
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Paraflex 15 for the 15LB100
Gkh ,
The 15LB100 is highly suitable for the Paraflex, it should be a wonderful combination .... I can come up with some dimensions for you.. In a high order cabinet the 15LB100 will be more comfortable with a 40hz tuning on the bottom , and upper response will probably reach up to around 100hz .. .
If you need the 35hz response with the 15B100 then i would suggest falling back to a less efficient design like the Karlflex 15 .... It is relatively small , and with the optional duct extension your tuning (Fb) will end up down around 33hz-ish and the upper response will extend to 500hz at least , probably more..
As we discussed some time ago, what I'm looking for is a sub with slender footprint, f3 at ~35Hz, going up to 140Hz max, preferrably with the 15LB100 (for budgetary reasons); no need for 150dB
Gerald
P.S.:
Do you have some dimensions for the Paraflex with 15LB100?
Gkh ,
The 15LB100 is highly suitable for the Paraflex, it should be a wonderful combination .... I can come up with some dimensions for you
.. In a high order cabinet the 15LB100 will be more comfortable with a 40hz tuning on the bottom , and upper response will probably reach up to around 100hz .. .If you need the 35hz response with the 15B100 then i would suggest falling back to a less efficient design like the Karlflex 15 .... It is relatively small , and with the optional duct extension your tuning (Fb) will end up down around 33hz-ish and the upper response will extend to 500hz at least , probably more..
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GKH - if you want something tuned low with a K-slot, here's a tiny Karlflex by TB46 - I don't know if that slot at the top would chuff at higher power (maybe)
https://i.imgur.com/zu3QwzS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pcgSopc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zu3QwzS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pcgSopc.jpg
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Update ... Super Planar 8th sub update
Here is an updated sketch and drawing for the 33hz Super Planar 8th loaded with B&C 18DS115 .... Split-path symmetrical layout (the hand-drawn version is provided by our friend Mr Vansickle) ....
This is a very large very serious cabinet....
The response is also very much "rising" with a single cab in halfspace but once you add any additional boundary loading (beyond halfspace), or add another cab, or multiple cabs the bottom-end is brought up considerably ..... This behavior is much like a FLH in this regard ... .
One of the builders had requested that the resonator chamber in the center be made more spacious so that it will be easier to work around the driver's frame (when mounting/removing the driver and such) ..... So the cabinet is actually just a little larger than it really needs to be ...... Split path symmetrical arrangements are always larger than the non-split path version anyhow (with the same tuning and internal volume) ........
This is clearly not a cabinet design for those who need something compact..... The priority here is performance..
Here is an updated sketch and drawing for the 33hz Super Planar 8th loaded with B&C 18DS115 .... Split-path symmetrical layout (the hand-drawn version is provided by our friend Mr Vansickle) ....
This is a very large very serious cabinet....
The response is also very much "rising" with a single cab in halfspace but once you add any additional boundary loading (beyond halfspace), or add another cab, or multiple cabs the bottom-end is brought up considerably ..... This behavior is much like a FLH in this regard ... .
One of the builders had requested that the resonator chamber in the center be made more spacious so that it will be easier to work around the driver's frame (when mounting/removing the driver and such) ..... So the cabinet is actually just a little larger than it really needs to be ...... Split path symmetrical arrangements are always larger than the non-split path version anyhow (with the same tuning and internal volume) ........
This is clearly not a cabinet design for those who need something compact
..... The priority here is performance..
Right
Gkh, Correct!
That is definitely one way to do it ..... The access panel would have to be made very strong (cannot flex) by the use of bracing or some means, and that access panel must seal perfectly with the cabinet and the seal cannot fail ................................ There will be tremendous pressure right there in that very spot when the cabinet is playing near the fundamental tuning ...
No need to make the resonator chamber larger than necessary - just add an access hatch in the rear wall
Gkh, Correct!
That is definitely one way to do it ..... The access panel would have to be made very strong (cannot flex) by the use of bracing or some means, and that access panel must seal perfectly with the cabinet and the seal cannot fail ................................ There will be tremendous pressure right there in that very spot when the cabinet is playing near the fundamental tuning ...
About the subwoofer featured in #592
More notes about the sub featured in post #592
This flare style mod is an option , you just give up a small amount of extension to gain a small amount of performance (according to Hornresp simulation)
and here is the sort of performance you can expect from 4 of these Super Planar 8th horn subwoofer cabinets in Halfspace ..... This curve is for the 600 liter version, but it is similar to the 637 liter cabinet's curve.. .
You can see the response "knee" lands right at 35hz with an F3 right around 30hz (4 cabs in Halfspace .... For the Car Audio guys just add +18db to estimate the in-vehicle SPL hahahaha!
) ..
Mr Vansickle has been asked to outfit another nightclub back east ... . This style of Super Planar 8th symmetrical split-path layout will be used in subs for that club .. . 4 of them loaded with 18DS115 drivers .... He wanted to improve the bottom end extension by a few more hertz so we scaled the cabs up somewhat.... The club owner is totally fine with large cabinets, they don't have to be portable , it is a permanent install situation.......Their acoustical impact will be matched by their visual impact
Hehehe......... These monstrous sub cabinets will also be used as platforms for the Super Planar tops.... I will post a few more sketches for tops here soon, probably today sometime.. .
More notes about the sub featured in post #592
This flare style mod is an option , you just give up a small amount of extension to gain a small amount of performance (according to Hornresp simulation)
and here is the sort of performance you can expect from 4 of these Super Planar 8th horn subwoofer cabinets in Halfspace ..... This curve is for the 600 liter version, but it is similar to the 637 liter cabinet's curve.. .
You can see the response "knee" lands right at 35hz with an F3 right around 30hz (4 cabs in Halfspace .... For the Car Audio guys just add +18db to estimate the in-vehicle SPL hahahaha!
) ..
Mr Vansickle has been asked to outfit another nightclub back east ... . This style of Super Planar 8th symmetrical split-path layout will be used in subs for that club .. . 4 of them loaded with 18DS115 drivers .... He wanted to improve the bottom end extension by a few more hertz so we scaled the cabs up somewhat.... The club owner is totally fine with large cabinets, they don't have to be portable , it is a permanent install situation.......Their acoustical impact will be matched by their visual impact
Hehehe......... These monstrous sub cabinets will also be used as platforms for the Super Planar tops.... I will post a few more sketches for tops here soon, probably today sometime.. .
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Super Planar tops... high order .... 80hz tuned ... Sketch and drawing ..
The fellow who owns the club and has struck a deal with Mr Vansickle said that he prefers the symmetrical layout in the tops, which is fine, the midrange may not be as smooth as the "spanned" drivers sharing a single path (our most successful Super Planar top to date) but if the resonant mass of air located in front of the 12" drivers is given sufficient volume and depth then it should work well enough to fill-in the response hole allowing for wide bandwidth and resulting in a warm and friendly sounding non-fatiguing "house curve" which people should really appreciate ........ Of course getting the compression drivers dialed-in is also a big factor in this..
We are trying to get away from the cold and harsh sound that many nightclubs are notorious for ......
In a nightclub or bar setting you want people to be comfortable and to stick around while they have a good time,memorable & pleasant, instead of being assaulted by hostile ugly sound that is every bit as unnerving as long fingernails being raked across a chalkboard, slowly, rhythmically, all night long, tormenting you ...
I think that a great set of drivers for this cabinet (as a simple 2-way) would be dual Eminence brand Kappalite 3012HO drivers along with a single Eminence N314T-8 compression driver with 1.4" throat ..... This would be a robust combination, and would allow the crossover point to be set anywhere from 800hz on up to 2.5khz in order to find your happy balance between power handling and upper-mid dispersion behavior.......
There are other good choices too , some of which USRFobiwan found, like the B&C 12NDL76 and the B&C 12FW64 ...
The cabinet would also work well for 10" drivers if you reduce the height of the cabinet to around 12" (outer) if using 3/4" ply or even a little less if using 1/2" ply ......
The Eminence Delta 10a are a good choice here for a low-budget 2-way, and in that case you could probably do alright with a 1" throat compression driver keeping in mind that this a lesser powered cab (compared to the 12" options) with a crossover point that isn't terribly low ....
USRFobiwan has also found some good 10" driver alternatives..... He found the Beyma 10MCS500 which does have impressive power handling and Xmax for a 10" PA driver ..... In this case you would probably want to stick with the 1.4" CD ...
..........
Here (below) is a hand drawn rendition of our Super Planar kickbin tops sketch ... Courtesy of Mr Vansickle..
F3 will be in the mid to upper 70s and that will be around where we cross over from the large Super Planar 8th subs .. .
The fellow who owns the club and has struck a deal with Mr Vansickle said that he prefers the symmetrical layout in the tops, which is fine, the midrange may not be as smooth as the "spanned" drivers sharing a single path (our most successful Super Planar top to date) but if the resonant mass of air located in front of the 12" drivers is given sufficient volume and depth then it should work well enough to fill-in the response hole allowing for wide bandwidth and resulting in a warm and friendly sounding non-fatiguing "house curve" which people should really appreciate
........ Of course getting the compression drivers dialed-in is also a big factor in this.. We are trying to get away from the cold and harsh sound that many nightclubs are notorious for ......
In a nightclub or bar setting you want people to be comfortable and to stick around while they have a good time,memorable & pleasant, instead of being assaulted by hostile ugly sound that is every bit as unnerving as long fingernails being raked across a chalkboard, slowly, rhythmically, all night long, tormenting you ...
I think that a great set of drivers for this cabinet (as a simple 2-way) would be dual Eminence brand Kappalite 3012HO drivers along with a single Eminence N314T-8 compression driver with 1.4" throat ..... This would be a robust combination, and would allow the crossover point to be set anywhere from 800hz on up to 2.5khz in order to find your happy balance between power handling and upper-mid dispersion behavior.......
There are other good choices too , some of which USRFobiwan found, like the B&C 12NDL76 and the B&C 12FW64 ...
The cabinet would also work well for 10" drivers if you reduce the height of the cabinet to around 12" (outer) if using 3/4" ply or even a little less if using 1/2" ply ......
The Eminence Delta 10a are a good choice here for a low-budget 2-way, and in that case you could probably do alright with a 1" throat compression driver keeping in mind that this a lesser powered cab (compared to the 12" options) with a crossover point that isn't terribly low ....
USRFobiwan has also found some good 10" driver alternatives..... He found the Beyma 10MCS500 which does have impressive power handling and Xmax for a 10" PA driver ..... In this case you would probably want to stick with the 1.4" CD ...
..........
Here (below) is a hand drawn rendition of our Super Planar kickbin tops sketch ... Courtesy of Mr Vansickle..
F3 will be in the mid to upper 70s and that will be around where we cross over from the large Super Planar 8th subs .. .
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