To me, with (mostly) full-range box primary speakers, the main benefit of my sub is the ability to place it such that an unfortunate room null at the listening position can be alleviated.
In plainer language, it's nice to be able to put the sub where it sounds best while leaving the main speakers where they sound best.
In plainer language, it's nice to be able to put the sub where it sounds best while leaving the main speakers where they sound best.
Hi,
Synth/electronic music goes down to 20 Hz and below.
It is rather advisable to have very capable subwoofer/subwoofers if you are looking for realistic concert sound reproduction to your home for example.
In fact, the most thunderous bass I have heard anywhere
was in Jean-Michel Jarre's concert back in 1997. If I remember
correctly, there was ServoDrive logo in it... I have never heard
before or after that anything that would have be on par with it.
I am still experimenting, how to recreate that. Perhaps
four Adire Audio Tumults with 1600 W output to each would
do the trick...
Best Wishes,
Karoliina
Synth/electronic music goes down to 20 Hz and below.
It is rather advisable to have very capable subwoofer/subwoofers if you are looking for realistic concert sound reproduction to your home for example.
In fact, the most thunderous bass I have heard anywhere
was in Jean-Michel Jarre's concert back in 1997. If I remember
correctly, there was ServoDrive logo in it... I have never heard
before or after that anything that would have be on par with it.
I am still experimenting, how to recreate that. Perhaps
four Adire Audio Tumults with 1600 W output to each would
do the trick...
Best Wishes,
Karoliina
I strongly believe that a sub or two are needed to make a system truely complete, no matter what type of music you listen to.
It doesn't matter how low your main speakers are capable of playing down to, because if you have them set up for optimum stereo imaging and tonal accuracy, you are never going to get the lowest notes from them. That's where a sub(s) comes in handy.
Also, I listen to a huge range of music, classical, jazz, techno.... basically anything but country and easy listening (elevator music). I have noticed that any type of music can and does contain frequencies down to 20Hz, not all of it but more than half.
How are you ever going to know if the CD you're listening to has any information below 42Hz unless you have subs that can reproduce below that? It's not like every CD you buy tells you what the lowest frequency is on it.
It doesn't matter how low your main speakers are capable of playing down to, because if you have them set up for optimum stereo imaging and tonal accuracy, you are never going to get the lowest notes from them. That's where a sub(s) comes in handy.
Also, I listen to a huge range of music, classical, jazz, techno.... basically anything but country and easy listening (elevator music). I have noticed that any type of music can and does contain frequencies down to 20Hz, not all of it but more than half.
How are you ever going to know if the CD you're listening to has any information below 42Hz unless you have subs that can reproduce below that? It's not like every CD you buy tells you what the lowest frequency is on it.
kan3 said:
Gee-golly, I don't have any charts to show you. However, I do have a system that reveals the bass content in music quite easily. I'm not using any DSPs, equalization, or tone controls so this bass I'm hearing can only be coming from one place, THE MUSIC!
Who knows, maybe if you use something better than an old RadioShack tape deck with a frequency response of 40Hz-16KHz as your source, you might be able to hear some bass down to 20Hz.
Hi Chops,
Unless you are into pipe organs, I don't think you'll find there is a whole lot below 30Hz. I know this isn't a complete scenario, but Kan is right if he listens to pop music.
My thought on the extended bass is this:
My ears don't hear well below 40Hz. Below that I have to feel the music. I can't tell the difference in the vibrations be they 35Hz or 20Hz.
Most of the vibrations attributed to "chest thumping bass" are around 50 - 80 Hz.
While I agree your system should be able cover the full spectrum, to do so involves compromises.
I am yet to hear ANY subwoofer that didn't have what I consider to be a flubbery bass.
I don't hear any flubbery bass in my 6 X 15" PA set up, which is down 3dB at 40 Hz.
Perhaps I'm just a low Xmax kind of guy.
After having said that, I must confess to having a sub set-up with satellites in my sunroom...because it works.
So as to enjoyment, no a subwoofer is not needed, but it is sometimes preferred.
This forum is an opportunity for us to realize the differences in one another.
Happy listening to all,
Cal
Unless you are into pipe organs, I don't think you'll find there is a whole lot below 30Hz. I know this isn't a complete scenario, but Kan is right if he listens to pop music.
My thought on the extended bass is this:
My ears don't hear well below 40Hz. Below that I have to feel the music. I can't tell the difference in the vibrations be they 35Hz or 20Hz.
Most of the vibrations attributed to "chest thumping bass" are around 50 - 80 Hz.
While I agree your system should be able cover the full spectrum, to do so involves compromises.
I am yet to hear ANY subwoofer that didn't have what I consider to be a flubbery bass.
I don't hear any flubbery bass in my 6 X 15" PA set up, which is down 3dB at 40 Hz.
Perhaps I'm just a low Xmax kind of guy.
After having said that, I must confess to having a sub set-up with satellites in my sunroom...because it works.
So as to enjoyment, no a subwoofer is not needed, but it is sometimes preferred.
This forum is an opportunity for us to realize the differences in one another.
Happy listening to all,
Cal
Subwoofers
I'm jumping in on the tail end of this discussion, but perhaps others would be interested in my set-up, which I thoroughly enjoy, and why I think it succeeds -
I use an old Velodyne ULD-18 II, fed by a Marchand XM9 (xover freq. 50 Hz). Main speakers are bi-amped Newform Research NHB-45s.
I'm not into home theater, but I think the ULD-18 II is optimal for 2-channel music, although its specs are certainly not up to the latest offerings from Velodyne and others. To me, it's the most "musical" sub I've found, which means it integrates in my system better than any other. But will other subs beat it when it comes to stomping dinosaurs?--obviously.
As for program material, a good sub is mostly needed for pipe organ recordings, although quite a few orchestral records contain healthy bass drum whacks--Telarc in particular. Those whacks will be "missing in action" without a good sub, or if the main speakers don't go below 40 Hz.
It seems to me that from a performance standpoint, a servo sub is the best, since it guarantees the lowest distortion and the fastest response, compared with convertional subs. Far from being a game of numbers, low distortion in subs is crucial because the upper harmonics tend to mask the fundamental, much more so than in the rest of the spectrum.
If a sub produces, say, 10% or even 3% distortion when playing a 30 Hz note, then the distortion products will tend to mask the 30 Hz output. Put simply, it will sound like the sub is playing an octave higher! Which is perhaps why the one gentleman said he "can't hear the low bass"--it may be there, but it's being blocked or masked, in part because of the ear's limited sensitivity to the lowest tones.
In my experience, a sub must produce <1% distortion at 30 Hz or below, at a reasonable SPL of 90 or 100 dB, or it's useless--to me, anyway. And I have found that the only type of sub that does that reliably is a servo.
I agree with the poster who argues for as low a xover freq as possible. And I prefer corner placement (my room is 20' x 30' with a high sloped ceiling)--this gives me the flattest bass.
No doubt my opinions and observations will be controversial, but as the original poster said, they're offered in good faith for the purpose of discussion.
I'm jumping in on the tail end of this discussion, but perhaps others would be interested in my set-up, which I thoroughly enjoy, and why I think it succeeds -
I use an old Velodyne ULD-18 II, fed by a Marchand XM9 (xover freq. 50 Hz). Main speakers are bi-amped Newform Research NHB-45s.
I'm not into home theater, but I think the ULD-18 II is optimal for 2-channel music, although its specs are certainly not up to the latest offerings from Velodyne and others. To me, it's the most "musical" sub I've found, which means it integrates in my system better than any other. But will other subs beat it when it comes to stomping dinosaurs?--obviously.
As for program material, a good sub is mostly needed for pipe organ recordings, although quite a few orchestral records contain healthy bass drum whacks--Telarc in particular. Those whacks will be "missing in action" without a good sub, or if the main speakers don't go below 40 Hz.
It seems to me that from a performance standpoint, a servo sub is the best, since it guarantees the lowest distortion and the fastest response, compared with convertional subs. Far from being a game of numbers, low distortion in subs is crucial because the upper harmonics tend to mask the fundamental, much more so than in the rest of the spectrum.
If a sub produces, say, 10% or even 3% distortion when playing a 30 Hz note, then the distortion products will tend to mask the 30 Hz output. Put simply, it will sound like the sub is playing an octave higher! Which is perhaps why the one gentleman said he "can't hear the low bass"--it may be there, but it's being blocked or masked, in part because of the ear's limited sensitivity to the lowest tones.
In my experience, a sub must produce <1% distortion at 30 Hz or below, at a reasonable SPL of 90 or 100 dB, or it's useless--to me, anyway. And I have found that the only type of sub that does that reliably is a servo.
I agree with the poster who argues for as low a xover freq as possible. And I prefer corner placement (my room is 20' x 30' with a high sloped ceiling)--this gives me the flattest bass.
No doubt my opinions and observations will be controversial, but as the original poster said, they're offered in good faith for the purpose of discussion.
Cal Weldon said:Hi Chops,
Unless you are into pipe organs, I don't think you'll find there is a whole lot below 30Hz. I know this isn't a complete scenario, but Kan is right if he listens to pop music.
My thought on the extended bass is this:
My ears don't hear well below 40Hz. Below that I have to feel the music. I can't tell the difference in the vibrations be they 35Hz or 20Hz.
Most of the vibrations attributed to "chest thumping bass" are around 50 - 80 Hz.
While I agree your system should be able cover the full spectrum, to do so involves compromises.
I am yet to hear ANY subwoofer that didn't have what I consider to be a flubbery bass.
I don't hear any flubbery bass in my 6 X 15" PA set up, which is down 3dB at 40 Hz.
Perhaps I'm just a low Xmax kind of guy.
After having said that, I must confess to having a sub set-up with satellites in my sunroom...because it works.
So as to enjoyment, no a subwoofer is not needed, but it is sometimes preferred.
This forum is an opportunity for us to realize the differences in one another.
Happy listening to all,
Cal
I can safely say that no-where in my system is there any "flubbery" bass. Remember, I am using four 15" drivers in a very large dipole configuration. This set-up provides extremely impressive, extremely deep bass with plenty of detail, and absolutely no boom. Plus, my dipoles are very efficient and require very little power to play extremely loud, lowering the distortion factor that much more.
The fundamentals are clearly heard without question. And no I'm not confusing them with harmonic distortions being produced.
There is plenty of music and recordings out there other than pipe organ that have bass content at 20Hz. I don't know what kind of music you listen to, but I can definantly hear it. One other thing, low bass content does not have to come from the music to make a difference in the recording, but the recording venue itself exhibits a certain amount of bass content to give you a sense of feel for the size of the room used to record in.
I'm sorry if no one here can realize the importance of having a system capable of reaching down to 20Hz. If that's how you feel about it, then you you have no idea what you're missing out on.
And someone said something about movies having very little bass content below 35-40Hz?! Think again!! Almost every movie I own has 20Hz bass at one point or another, and trust me, it makes a hell of a difference!
Like I've said before, I would hate to see how some have thier systems set up that say they don't need subs to reach down to 20Hz or below. I wish some of you could hear my system. I bet that you would change your minds in a second!
Re: Subwoofers
It seems to me that from a performance standpoint, a servo sub is the best, since it guarantees the lowest distortion and the fastest response, compared with convertional subs. Far from being a game of numbers, low distortion in subs is crucial because the upper harmonics tend to mask the fundamental, much more so than in the rest of the spectrum.
If a sub produces, say, 10% or even 3% distortion when playing a 30 Hz note, then the distortion products will tend to mask the 30 Hz output. Put simply, it will sound like the sub is playing an octave higher! Which is perhaps why the one gentleman said he "can't hear the low bass"--it may be there, but it's being blocked or masked, in part because of the ear's limited sensitivity to the lowest tones.
In my experience, a sub must produce <1% distortion at 30 Hz or below, at a reasonable SPL of 90 or 100 dB, or it's useless--to me, anyway. And I have found that the only type of sub that does that reliably is a servo.
Just a comment on low frequency distortion:
Read a article about a MFB subwoofer. There the designer stated that if you are below 100 Hz, the first harmonic have to be at least -40db to be audible...Our ears are **** in the bass region. Bass is rumble, not a easily identifiable sound. Just listen to only your sub, power off the other speakers. Just rumble.
My 10 cents...
It seems to me that from a performance standpoint, a servo sub is the best, since it guarantees the lowest distortion and the fastest response, compared with convertional subs. Far from being a game of numbers, low distortion in subs is crucial because the upper harmonics tend to mask the fundamental, much more so than in the rest of the spectrum.
If a sub produces, say, 10% or even 3% distortion when playing a 30 Hz note, then the distortion products will tend to mask the 30 Hz output. Put simply, it will sound like the sub is playing an octave higher! Which is perhaps why the one gentleman said he "can't hear the low bass"--it may be there, but it's being blocked or masked, in part because of the ear's limited sensitivity to the lowest tones.
In my experience, a sub must produce <1% distortion at 30 Hz or below, at a reasonable SPL of 90 or 100 dB, or it's useless--to me, anyway. And I have found that the only type of sub that does that reliably is a servo.
Just a comment on low frequency distortion:
Read a article about a MFB subwoofer. There the designer stated that if you are below 100 Hz, the first harmonic have to be at least -40db to be audible...Our ears are **** in the bass region. Bass is rumble, not a easily identifiable sound. Just listen to only your sub, power off the other speakers. Just rumble.
My 10 cents...
I agree with that.
I would indeed go a step further: Even musical instruments generate content below their "lowest notes". The low E-string on a guitar for instance is around 82 Hz. Listen to "A Friday night in San Francisco" on speakers that go just down to 50 Hz and then to ones that go lower. I bet you would hear a difference.
Regards
Charles
Cool, this could be interesting!
Please do Bjork - Hyperballad. That has rich, deep bass in it, and I've thought it must be reaching 30hz on some synth notes.
Another one I'd love to know is a Basement Jaxx track called Freakalude - the last few seconds chucks out sound that when turned up seems to actually wobble my sofa, I think it is close to 20hz and probably near full output of the CD. Another must-see is the last track - 'All I Know'. The album is called Rooty. I'll be disapointed and surprised if there is no content below 30hz.
Also, if you have it (haha, as if) there is a speed garage track called Gabrielle - one note is totally inaudible w/o my sub turned on, so it must be well below 45hz or so, probably about 30hz
I doubt much music goes below 25-30hz with anything significant, but it would be super-cool to see what's what
I don't know how deep one should really aim for in a system, but if you don't reach at least 30hz you will miss entire notes in some synth basslines. Some dub-reggae notes need it too
Please do Bjork - Hyperballad. That has rich, deep bass in it, and I've thought it must be reaching 30hz on some synth notes.
Another one I'd love to know is a Basement Jaxx track called Freakalude - the last few seconds chucks out sound that when turned up seems to actually wobble my sofa, I think it is close to 20hz and probably near full output of the CD. Another must-see is the last track - 'All I Know'. The album is called Rooty. I'll be disapointed and surprised if there is no content below 30hz.
Also, if you have it (haha, as if) there is a speed garage track called Gabrielle - one note is totally inaudible w/o my sub turned on, so it must be well below 45hz or so, probably about 30hz
I doubt much music goes below 25-30hz with anything significant, but it would be super-cool to see what's what
I don't know how deep one should really aim for in a system, but if you don't reach at least 30hz you will miss entire notes in some synth basslines. Some dub-reggae notes need it too
I agree about the ambience factor from low bass, certainly seems true with lots of live recorded music.chops said:
As for movies, I'm not a huge home cinema person, but everything I've heard seems to have rumbles at about 35hz or thereabouts, and very occasionally some cool effects below that - those nice fruity warbly splodgy tones, mmm.
Cal,
With respect, I think 'flubbery' bass is probably just any bass under 40hz, and you aren't used to it. If your big PA rig went low enough it too might (probably would) sound 'flubbery'.
ok here are some images, note, I used peak holds just to find the loudest content and ran the song all the way through
I didn't know what volume level would be considered to low for worth while information so I picked -35db out of 0db
this is the bjork song
peaks at 38hz @ -11db and goes down to 27hz@ -35db
this song is pretty loud since it seems to keep its peaks through a large portion of the song
This is the only speed garage song from the gabrielle cd I could find - called Dreams
It peaks at 59hz @ -15db and keeps that peak level down to the low 40hz area in which it gradually rolls off to I marked the hump in this picture which is 18hz@ -33db
Heres a song I picked Lil John - throw it up - it ones of the lowest rap songs I've heard in a long time...if you don't know lil john and the eastside boys think - ho hum rap lyrcis with ridiculously loud bass
it peaks at 49hz@ -4db and keeps the peak all the way down to the low 30hz area then rolls off to a hump with 13hz@ -20db and then goes on from there
Another lil john song called Bia Bia BUT this is the chop and screwed version...similar but its slowed down quite a bit and the bass is very drawn out....the song is pretty loud but the part I wanted is the peak you see in the picture that happens for about 6 seconds in the middle of the song
it peaks at 38hz@ -3db
and continues that peak up to about 48hz
from the 38hz mark it starts rolling off fast to about 17hz@ -35db
I'm trying to find the freakalude song still, if I do I'll post it
these are some of the loudest/lowest rap songs I know and with techno/synth/etc represents some of the lowest material you'll find in a conventional song...IMO anyway
I didn't know what volume level would be considered to low for worth while information so I picked -35db out of 0db
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
this is the bjork song
peaks at 38hz @ -11db and goes down to 27hz@ -35db
this song is pretty loud since it seems to keep its peaks through a large portion of the song
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is the only speed garage song from the gabrielle cd I could find - called Dreams
It peaks at 59hz @ -15db and keeps that peak level down to the low 40hz area in which it gradually rolls off to I marked the hump in this picture which is 18hz@ -33db
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Heres a song I picked Lil John - throw it up - it ones of the lowest rap songs I've heard in a long time...if you don't know lil john and the eastside boys think - ho hum rap lyrcis with ridiculously loud bass
it peaks at 49hz@ -4db and keeps the peak all the way down to the low 30hz area then rolls off to a hump with 13hz@ -20db and then goes on from there
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Another lil john song called Bia Bia BUT this is the chop and screwed version...similar but its slowed down quite a bit and the bass is very drawn out....the song is pretty loud but the part I wanted is the peak you see in the picture that happens for about 6 seconds in the middle of the song
it peaks at 38hz@ -3db
and continues that peak up to about 48hz from the 38hz mark it starts rolling off fast to about 17hz@ -35db
I'm trying to find the freakalude song still, if I do I'll post it
these are some of the loudest/lowest rap songs I know and with techno/synth/etc represents some of the lowest material you'll find in a conventional song...IMO anyway
Hey! Good work!kan3 said:
Thanks for doing the graphs, but seriously, you need to find out what 'speed garage' actually is, lol. Gabrielle is the name of the song I wanted, but the graph is interesting nevertheless.
The freakalude track is worth a search
I'm not surprised by a peak of 38hz for Bjork, that's kinda what I expected - room-shaking subwoofer bass
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