Hello folks,
Would it be possible for someone to explain the expected differences between the two mentioned designs?
For example, what were the design goals? Perhaps it's easier if I explain what I'm after... I'm not after absolute bottom end extension, or for that matter top end. A speaker capable of producing in the 55Hz range would be quite sufficient. I'm looking for delicacy and overall balance at moderate levels. No headbanging, rock etc here, though occasionally some orchestral works. The room is only ~12.5 * 15'.
*footnote: After much head-scratching I'm leaning towards the Golden Ratio Mar-Kens. As fond of the smaller fe127s, fr125 and A7's that I am, I would like to try a larger driver though not necessarily a larger cabinet - I find the wider baffles visually appealing on the GR(im)M(ro)K.
Thank you in advance
ps: the post comes across as if I've made up my mind. I haven't!
Would it be possible for someone to explain the expected differences between the two mentioned designs?
For example, what were the design goals? Perhaps it's easier if I explain what I'm after... I'm not after absolute bottom end extension, or for that matter top end. A speaker capable of producing in the 55Hz range would be quite sufficient. I'm looking for delicacy and overall balance at moderate levels. No headbanging, rock etc here, though occasionally some orchestral works. The room is only ~12.5 * 15'.
*footnote: After much head-scratching I'm leaning towards the Golden Ratio Mar-Kens. As fond of the smaller fe127s, fr125 and A7's that I am, I would like to try a larger driver though not necessarily a larger cabinet - I find the wider baffles visually appealing on the GR(im)M(ro)K.
Thank you in advance
ps: the post comes across as if I've made up my mind. I haven't!
Hi grimmrok:
I'm currently doing a pair of Mar-ken cabs for some MA 10.2 eNA's.
I've not heard the driver in either cab, but that said, I love the results in it's smaller version, the Chr-Ken (chr70eNA).
I may do a pair of Pensil boxes as well, just to compare.
However, the Mar-Ken takes up less real estate which is a factor around here!
Best, Don
I'm currently doing a pair of Mar-ken cabs for some MA 10.2 eNA's.
I've not heard the driver in either cab, but that said, I love the results in it's smaller version, the Chr-Ken (chr70eNA).
I may do a pair of Pensil boxes as well, just to compare.
However, the Mar-Ken takes up less real estate which is a factor around here!
Best, Don
total cubic volume perhaps - but unless on a bookshelf, by the time you count the stands, how much greater is the foot-print of a floorstander? rhetorical question - answer is - often less
and a lot of builders could have a pair of Pensils finished in much less time than any of the prime -"Kens"
My impression, from a practical/build standpoint of a very novice woodworker, is that the *ken style designs are easier to modify to fit various size and shape requirements, but they're not so easy to build right unless you have access to some expensive tooling. The Pensil designs are really easy to build, but they can't really be modified.
About the sound...wait a few weeks...I've got 20 A10.2 drivers waiting for their new homes.
About the sound...wait a few weeks...I've got 20 A10.2 drivers waiting for their new homes.
I have recently finished a pair of 10.2 pensils and cannot believe just how good they are. I don't just mean good for FR speakers, I mean good, period. I believe they are as good a value for the money as you can find. My reference list: Mag1.6, Quad Floorstanders, Linn Keliegh (not sure if that's right), Linn Tukan, Linn Klimax complete system at Audio Advice. I don't know how they do it, but they do.
Chris is correct re: footprint size. By the time I realized I'd omitted the stands, I forgot (it's an age thing
Mar-Kens coming-- View attachment 219900
Don
Don,
If you think you can fool me with a larger driver/cabinet combo at next Summer's shoot-out, you better think again!
Best Regards,
Terry
Terry: Your line arrays did you proud-- you can officially rest on your laurels!!Don,
If you think you can fool me with a larger driver/cabinet combo at next Summer's shoot-out, you better think again!
Best Regards,
Terry
( the above speakers, for those unfortunates who've not heard them, float an image unlike anything I've ever heard. Oh, they play great music too!)
Best, Don
I believe that Don's trying to fool everyone, including me. He knows that I don't like to bring the same stuff to these events, but he's trying to get me off my guard, so when he shows up with those new speakers...
KA-BOOM!
Rest? No way!
Best Regards,
Terry
Well, to elicit the best performance from each driver in the *kens takes more than simply changing the enclosure volume and driver cut-out - (i.e. care with vent tuning / aspect ratio to retain the intended near aperiodic resistive load).
and yup, it's very handy to have access to CNC router for rebated driver mounts, and big a$$ table saws to cut those chamfers after assembly.
The Pensils are absolutely an easier build - it'll likely take longer to veneer/paint/finish a pair than to build, but a few minutes listening to the *kens should tell whether what I think I've been hearing the latter doing that makes them worth the effort is just imaginary.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that the design considerations were trivial, but just that there were more shape options with the aperiodic design, basically because (as far as I understand) there isn't any particular dimension that can't be manipulated as long as port resistance is maintained.
Also, I forgot to mention that I've decided that I will add low end support regardless of the design, and that will likely negate the greatest difference between various box plans.
Also, I've made a personal decision not to run numbers/calculations and to approach my speakers as art and play, so the only thing I'm willing to argue about is that the *ken builds are not trivial for the amateur. That said, those are the ones I'm using, and I really appreciate the efforts of those that have made the plans readily available.
I've not seen anyone compare the Pensils to the *ken's as far as sonics, so I hope this thread will stay alive.
Also, I forgot to mention that I've decided that I will add low end support regardless of the design, and that will likely negate the greatest difference between various box plans.
Also, I've made a personal decision not to run numbers/calculations and to approach my speakers as art and play, so the only thing I'm willing to argue about is that the *ken builds are not trivial for the amateur. That said, those are the ones I'm using, and I really appreciate the efforts of those that have made the plans readily available.
I've not seen anyone compare the Pensils to the *ken's as far as sonics, so I hope this thread will stay alive.
Jon,
Most designs can profit from low end argumentation and I'm including speakers that cost into the tens of thousands of dollars. However, you need to understand that the presence or absence of Bass, at such and such a frequency isn't the real issue, it's how it's integrated and the octave to octave balance.
You can choose to not bother with the numbers, but I can tell you that if you're at all serious about good sound, you'll end up running numbers. There's a lot of scope even then and you need to make intelligent choices. That's where the "art" comes in. Your experience will eventually dictate what combination of factors (often expressed as numerical entities) you find to your taste and what goals you've set for yourself.
I'm sure that this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I've been down that path myself and eventually I had to buckle down and actually start learning this stuff (numbers and all).
Just the same, it can be a fun and often gratifying experience.
Good Luck,
TerryO
I've told many jokes that are empirically funny, but are greeted with blank stares...
I'll be the first one to admit I've got a problem with perfection. I learned the physics and ran the numbers years ago, and bankrupted myself chasing an ideal. Now I'm just building something I think is sensible and will tweak later. I can't afford all perfect recordings anyway. What is unsaid is that I read alot of the discussions on this site, so I'm not doing anything just willy-nilly. But this is not my thread, so I'll stop.
More to the OP post--the reason I've decided to add LFE has to to with other's tastes. Many people just respond to power. I'm doing a bunch of dual driver marKen10.2s just because it seems that I might like a bit more oomph once in a while. The LFE just helps with that. If you do a good job with your build, you're going to want to show it off, even if that involves some marketing.
I'll be the first one to admit I've got a problem with perfection. I learned the physics and ran the numbers years ago, and bankrupted myself chasing an ideal. Now I'm just building something I think is sensible and will tweak later. I can't afford all perfect recordings anyway. What is unsaid is that I read alot of the discussions on this site, so I'm not doing anything just willy-nilly. But this is not my thread, so I'll stop.
More to the OP post--the reason I've decided to add LFE has to to with other's tastes. Many people just respond to power. I'm doing a bunch of dual driver marKen10.2s just because it seems that I might like a bit more oomph once in a while. The LFE just helps with that. If you do a good job with your build, you're going to want to show it off, even if that involves some marketing.
I've been trying to resist, but since you put it that way: based on experience with the Alpair7 in a single example of the former, and several of the latter, my characterization would be "grunt" / low end torque vs finesse with a lighter touch.
Having become rather accustomed to "thin but fast" in the lowest octaves during the past few years, before being introduced to Mark's drivers (about 6 models so far) I'm constantly amazed by their extended LF performance. But as Terry and yourself have noted, there are few "full range" (let's call 'em wide band) drivers that can't benefit with a little help in the heavy lifting department, and integrating them seamlessly is not always easy.
Interesting. How would you explain this. Is it a psychoacoustic thing (I think I made that word up
) What I mean is, the bass extension of the Pensils give the feel of grunt, but if somehow electronically eliminated or made equal to *kens, they would sound the same. What would be ypur explanation?
Interesting. How would you explain this. Is it a psychoacoustic thing (I think I made that word up
Buzz,
You're a bit late on inventing the word psychoacoustic I think, as it's been around just about as long as I can remember.
Here's a bit on it:
Psychoacoustics
I might also mention that it would be very hard to make two different speakers sound the same, especially if they were utilizing different topographies. Closer perhaps (maybe, kind of, etc.), but never identical. If it were that easy then we'd all have the "Marvelous Equalizer" and be as happy as Clams at high tide.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Perhaps a simplified explanation of how the different boxes yield different results in 1000 -15000Hz range. I am a newb and find myself tempted to build a *ken alternative to the Pensil's for my 10.2's. What sonic differences should i expect. I understand a little about how using quarterwaves and such can reinforce low end, but am lost on how a speaker enclosure that is optimally designed for a driver will yield different results in other frequency ranges. There seems to be a lot of experience in this conversation and presents itself as an ideal place to learn something!
Buzz,
The problem is with your use of the term "Optimal Design."
Optimal for whom and which room? Which criteria are Optimal?
Bass extension, flat FR or BBC dip, directivity, off-axis response or diffraction?
These are just a few of the problems that are dealt with, for any design, and it is often the designer that selects and prioritizes the list. Did he have you in mind? Probably not, which is why I like DIY, as it offers the possibility to end up with something that suits you, your requirements and your room... perfectly!
Best Regards,
TerryO
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