wtfplay project - Linux based PC playback system

My DAC is run in synchronous mode. It sounded better than it did in asynchronous more with my setup.
This is a surprising result. Not impossible, just surprising. It should be far simpler for a dac to provide a low jitter clock for the dac chips in asynchronous mode. In synchronous mode, the dac runs as a slave to the USB clock, and it has to use PLLs to lock it's clocks to the USB. Even if the USB clock is perfect, the act of locking one clock to another wil always introduce some jitter. In asynchronous mode the dac doesn't care about the USB clock, it generates it's own clocks and can then use nice high precision oscillators. A dac that performs better in synchronous mode basically has do do something "wrong" in asynchronous mode.
Still, the fact that you run in synchronous mode changes the picture a bit. Suddenly the USB clock becomes important, and stuff that can affect it can play a role. If the receiver in teh dac also runs off USB power, then any noise on the USB power line can also make it perform worse with more jitter as a result.

It is not my conceit that memory can sound different. Plenty of others do and have for years. It is akin to trying out different brands of tubes though I am a solid state user.
The only way memory (and other devices, like SATA controllers or whataver) can affect the sopund of a USB dac is by polluting the power rails. The tube analogy isn't really valid. Changing tubes has a very direct effect on the sound, a different gain and better/worse linearity of the new device affects the properties of the whole circuit.

Using the HDPLEX ATX modlue with their SMPS was greatly superior to the 800 watts highly regarded but I cannot remember the name, ATX supply. ANYONE could hear that.
This makes perfect sense. As phofman already mentioned, an SMPS typically doesn't perform it's best a low load. An atom board uses maybe a total of ~10W when playing audio. This is very little for an 800W supply and I would expect the regulation and ripple to both be much worse than if you would pull say 200W from it. For linear supplies it's often beneficial to have more capacity than you need, but for an SMPS it can actually make things worse.

I am using high quality USB drives but nothing that costs hundreds much less one hundred dollars. I do not hear any difference between the SD cards and the various USB drives. At this point I have no interest in trying different USB drives or SD cards. I was hoping there would be some miraculous improvement or that the SD card would be demonstrably superior. Maybe the state of storage art is at the point that the ideal is close at hand?
If the drives aren't powered by the computers USB power, so that they can't pollute the power line, then there should be no difference between different drives, no matter which technology they use. They all deliver nice uncorrupted data. If they didn't, all you pictures would end up looking like this picture(random example from google). Many data formats can't tolerate any data corruption. This jpeg has had a few bytes modified on purpose to priduce an effect:
S-Nm7ncKyoLo_2ZzgojGHjfWzS0212GhfpUd0FLJeYQEtadvrjEccRtFJAtwbWHqvklD2oIPvxiVyB58QFWU0MOIKiORZC08FbWOFiNISJUX6n-x9aW7R9OoNlf9LZArd3Y

(borrowed from How to glitch JPG images with data corruption | Datamoshing)
 
Hi All

I've been using wtfplay since 2016 or so. Mostly just on an old Dell i5 laptop - nothing special. I run the USB out to a Gustard U-12. Then on to AES input of minidsp pwrice-125 driving lxminis I built myself.

I played with this latest version of wtfplay. I had disabled everything on the laptop that I could but tonight I went one step further: I disabled all the hard drives in BIOS, basically disabled all the SATA drives. So the laptop can only boot off the USB stick.

It worked, which was a good thing, and even better I think it sounded a lot better with a lot more low level detail coming through.

I'm far from any sort of techhead and the extent of what I can do is play around with BIOS, and cajole my young son to install various combinations of mpd onto linux platforms for me, so I simply pass on what I hear.

I hope you all try it and it might even work for you if you haven't done it already. Easily reversible too.

All the best and we should all thank frd! I just got such a big kick out of listening to music tonight - so thanks frd!!!!
 
With my system as described I am finding superior sound quality with the core2 version.

I am not saying this will be the case for everyone but everyone should try just to hear for themselves.

With i3 there is a phasey kind of sound - in the upper mid frequencies - I hear it as a lack of focus and an unwanted, though some may find it attractive, fake spaciousness.

Maybe because of this or as a separate problem there is an aberration, a burr for lack of a better word added to the harmonic structure. This is almost too large to be what I have considered digital noise in the past.

I have gone back and forth many times. There is the fear of wanting something to be but, so far, every time I listen to i3 I can almost assure myself i am hearing things but when I return to core2 there is a distinct feeling of relief. At this point the lack of focus has become readily audible. I do not doubt this is the fault of the puny CPU I am using but I do knwo this board sounds superior to the previous board which did use an i3 CPU. This was with 7.0 - I am not going back to see if it changes with 7.1. I never tried core2 with that CPU and it would be interesting to know. One of these days when there is nothing else to do i will give it a try.

So with hearing what happens with this combination I wonder if i shoudl try a setup with a CPU that uses the AVX instructions?

What I read about AVX gives me the impression it would give nothing in the way of better sound but one can never know unless one gives it a try.

Has anyone had experience with this and found it to have any benefit at all? Of course, i would love to hear it is the holy grail for computer audio.

JoseM glad you gave it a try. It surprised me since I had previously thought SATA was the only way to deliver the music files. I figure the lessening of power required for the board is a big part of the difference. i still think there is something to having both input and output tied to the same clock frequency. Purely conceptual. I readily admit I have no idea.

I do think both of these little ASROCK boards have particularly good USB implementations.

Maybe memory doesn't make any difference - but it has in the past where we found low latency memory made an improvement. Both of these board will only work with a minumum of 4 gB and low latency like we used in the cMP days in not available.

When using the previous board I would only use 1gB.

I will respectfully disagree that memory doesn't make an impact on the sound quality. My most recent experience is with these two ASROCK boards with their different memory formats. The board using the "desktop" memory just sounds better. I will get a couple of other sticks and hear if there is any difference.

The obvious question is to ask if the one who has made this assertion has ever tried other memory sticks in their audio computer? Sorry, but I think I know the answer. There is such a thing as being too sure of themselves.

All of us kooks wish all of this perfection was real and that there is no difference between components.

Tubes from different manufacturers usually have the same data sheet specification. Of course, those specification sheets are erroneous since it us plainly obvious that all tubes do not sound the same. I do not understand why this would not correspond to any device we use in our computers for audio.

Audio is weird as are the folks who obsess over it. But that does not mean we are ALWAYS making things up. I know I am guilty plenty of times but the truth always comes through eventually. Placebos never please forever but there are plenty of things said to be impossible ten years ago that are taken as the obvious thing to do now.

If you do not try :"things" it seems we get nowhere. For some nowhere can be a comforting stasis but for others there is the thought there is something that has been missed and must be found.

I tried the synchronous setting on my DAC (Matrix X-Sabre Pro Mqn - absurdly long name) since it was there. I had heard folks say it was more intended for CD transports and fully expected it to sound worse. This is why I have come to think these cheap little boards have better than average USB implementation. It was not a major difference but one would not give away.

I use the onboard headers since this makes it easier to remotely power - i do not have to cut into the cable. Using these headers made me a little nervous, too. I thought i had remembered someone saying they were not as good as the ones on the edge of the board. I figure this must had something to do with the limited power available at these headers which is not a concern for me.

Those whose DACs are not full i3 should try the core2 version. I would be interested in hearing what other hear.

With finding the best marriage of hardware and player WTF will continue to evolve into something very fine. Hope some others will join the hunt for the best motherboard/CPU/memory.
 
Hi All

I played with this latest version of wtfplay. I had disabled everything on the laptop that I could but tonight I went one step further: I disabled all the hard drives in BIOS, basically disabled all the SATA drives. So the laptop can only boot off the USB stick.

It worked, which was a good thing, and even better I think it sounded a lot better with a lot more low level detail coming through.

There's no reason to run wtfplay from a usb stick if you can boot and run it from a sata ssd drive, the reduction in boot time would be 10 fold.
Disabling sata ports and fiddling with the bios settings has no effect on audio quality, the sata port is still being powered from the motherboard. Disabling the sata port just tells the boot process to ignore it.

With my system as described I am finding superior sound quality with the core2 version.

I am not saying this will be the case for everyone but everyone should try just to hear for themselves.

With i3 there is a phasey kind of sound - in the upper mid frequencies - I hear it as a lack of focus and an unwanted, though some may find it attractive, fake spaciousness.

A CPU cannot change the upper mid frequency or phase response of an audio playback system.

So with hearing what happens with this combination I wonder if i shoudl try a setup with a CPU that uses the AVX instructions?

What I read about AVX gives me the impression it would give nothing in the way of better sound but one can never know unless one gives it a try.

Has anyone had experience with this and found it to have any benefit at all? Of course, i would love to hear it is the holy grail for computer audio.

AVX is an instruction set hardwired into a CPU and needs to be supported by a software compiler and operating system. Instruction sets provide a way for a CPU to run software code more efficiently and in fewer CPU clock cycles. Most Intel and AMD CPU's manufactured in the last 10 years support AVX. The AVX instruction cycle is not relevant to audio playback quality.

Maybe memory doesn't make any difference - but it has in the past where we found low latency memory made an improvement. Both of these board will only work with a minumum of 4 gB and low latency like we used in the cMP days in not available.
RAM is a temporary storage medium used by the CPU, the RAM latency is configured and detected by the motherboard, a few nanoseconds here or there in RAM timing is not going to change audio quality.

I will respectfully disagree that memory doesn't make an impact on the sound quality. My most recent experience is with these two ASROCK boards with their different memory formats. The board using the "desktop" memory just sounds better. I will get a couple of other sticks and hear if there is any difference.
Save your money, memory sticks don't have a sound, it's just not possible.

The obvious question is to ask if the one who has made this assertion has ever tried other memory sticks in their audio computer? Sorry, but I think I know the answer. There is such a thing as being too sure of themselves.
But there is such a thing as people having formal education in electronics and engineering.

Tubes from different manufacturers usually have the same data sheet specification. Of course, those specification sheets are erroneous since it us plainly obvious that all tubes do not sound the same. I do not understand why this would not correspond to any device we use in our computers for audio.
Vacuum Tubes based upon 1920's technology is not the same as a CPU that uses digital logic.

With finding the best marriage of hardware and player WTF will continue to evolve into something very fine. Hope some others will join the hunt for the best motherboard/CPU/memory.

wtfplay is a linux OS and will probably run on most x86 architectures, ultimately audio quality will boil down to the connected DAC device.
 
Of course you have not tried anything.

Boot time with USB stick is so fast who the hell could care if it took a second less?

Your comments are comedy. And not very good comedy. Keep working at it.

I am sorry but you are, well you can imagine the word I have in mind.

PS do you use WTFPLAY? Do you have an audio system other than your car?
 
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So you took the post to be "Not Agreeing" with me?

I was not asking for agreement. Nor do i want it. I would prefer a debate among people who actually have used the subject at hand.

Why do I think they are using cheap equipment?

Because that is usually the case, along with having never used WTF AT ALL.

Do you really think it is important to have a 24 mB OS on a sata drive to get a faster boot? If you think that was an intelligent statement i believe you have found a new friend.

Of course, gloworm has no idea how small the OS is, does he, to make such a ludicrous suggestion? Or would fatuous be a more appropriate word?

In case you are thinking I am being snobbish all of my listening is done with the small plastic 45 rpm phonograph I had as a child. Along with all of the DISNEY 45s of Mickey and Minnie singing those heartwarming duets that made us giggle so when we were younger and still seem to possess the same magic to this day. Miraculous!

So I am not actually using WTF either.

This whole thread is about people talking about software they have never used, me included.

Now we are all equal. Isn't egalitarianism the answer to the world's problems?

Makes everything so easy and if it is not easy it in not worth doing. All of the answers are in the college textbooks so one can turn off their mind as soon as they are handed that special sheet of paper.

This seems to be the essential difference between most of the engineers who grace the pages of this forum and lawyers.

A good lawyer will tell you their education begins when they leave law school and their engineering counterparts (who think they are scientists, also, for a bit of levity) know they know it all and there is never a need to think ever again.

Not speaking of all engineers since that would be absurd but I have found those who quickly tell you they are ENGINEERS will most likely fit into this category.

Look around these forums and you will read plenty of evidence of this sad phenomenon. The demand for impossible to implement AB tests is a sure give away.

It is a shame we cannot discuss WTF with those who actually use it.

Maybe we can have a separate thread for those who actually use it and then those that imagine it can have this one for themselves. This way everyone could be happy including Mickey and Minnie.

Oy, ve ...
 
Why do I think they are using cheap equipment?

Because that is usually the case, along with having never used WTF AT ALL.
How on earth do you know that? (the equipment part, not about using WTF). Easy, you don't and you are wrong.

A good lawyer will tell you their education begins when they leave law school and their engineering counterparts (who think they are scientists, also, for a bit of levity) know they know it all and there is never a need to think ever again.
Sure, those engineers exist, but they aren't very useful and luckily they aren't too many. I'm sure you find that type of lawyers fresh out of lawschool as well, and I guess they don't last very long in the field.

A simple question. Would you accept legal facts from an experienced lawyer? How about economy from an economist? Physics from a physicist?
 
Of course you have not tried anything.

Boot time with USB stick is so fast who the hell could care if it took a second less?

Your comments are comedy. And not very good comedy. Keep working at it.

I am sorry but you are, well you can imagine the word I have in mind.

PS do you use WTFPLAY? Do you have an audio system other than your car?
I'm not here to provide comedy relief, myself and others are trying to educate you about the inner workings of computers and software. Why can't a car audio system provide high quality audio playback ?

Why do I think they are using cheap equipment?

Because that is usually the case, along with having never used WTF AT ALL.
You have no idea about what equipment I have, you're making wild assumptions.

Of course, gloworm has no idea how small the OS is, does he, to make such a ludicrous suggestion? Or would fatuous be a more appropriate word?
Now you resort to name calling and making asinine comments.

Anyone who would like to continue a real exploration of the merits of WTF should take a look at TIR NA HIFI where nonsense is not welcomed.

Take a look here:
https://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=ac9a8794c8e27e3c75550df83d533f6b&i=1

This has become a very low brow circus which is too often the case at DIYAudio when the ABXers destroy a thread.
To cap it off you run away and post a link to another audio forum and make defamatory statements about individuals who post here because you don't have the intellectual capacity and technical understanding about what is being discussed. Some of the comments you have made are offensive. You have no knowledge about people's technical backgrounds or their expertise.
I have never stated that I'm a ABXer, nobody in this thread has made any comments relating to ABX, again you make more assumptions.
You have turned this thread about wtfplay into a nonsensical discussion about computer hardware.
 
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Hi rickmcinnis,
You have been very insulting to anyone who hasn't agreed with you, whether you say you wish for that or not. You aren't up on anything technical it seems, and that is fine as long as you don't argue about it.

Read your post on the other site out of interest. You appear to accept recommendations you agree with without any investigation - fine. But around here, those people you insulted do investigate. They certainly do listen to systems as home of varying quality, all somewhat better than the plastic 45 player you described (had one).

Many of your posts I have read are nonsense and didn't add any experience or knowledge to forward this thread. So before posting, ask yourself if you have anything truly constructive to add. If you don't, hands off the keyboard. If you do, then by all means, contribute.

-Chris
 
in exploring the best for my system i discovered wtfplayer 2016 and follow the forums where there are different opinions on sound quality wtf, personally i have windows mac linux os different players, tested but wtf showed the most enjoyment of listening to my music on days when we are at home and more about our hobby, with the latest version 0.7, I connected the player directly to an internet radio server locally, you can listen only at the address.
for those who are in doubt or unsure of the sound quality wtfplayer is a temporary listening option * Classical music
I would like to thank FRD for the time and sharing of wtfplayer

https://audiophile.radio12345.com/
 
congratulations and thanks for the excellent work, there would be no possibility to use the reader as a render from an external library type jriver
it is not possible to randomly listen to the songs present in various directors, such as daphile's randon, sorry for my english thanks and good work
 
marcocastro, Unfortunately not - there is no music database that would allow playing files form a random locations.

I can propose a workaround:

Start wtfcui and add all files that you want to play to the playlist. SHIFT-A adds all files form the current directory - that will make the whole process slightly faster. Next, switch to the playlist (TAB) and randomize it by pressing R key. Next just hit ENTER to start the playback.

I know, that it is not ideal, but I think this is the closest thing to what you can achieve with a software that uses music library.

I hope that you will find in helpful.

Cheers,
F