" ... offering pristine 24-bit/192kHz recording and playback ..." using " ... Premium 24-bit/192kHz A/D and D/A converters ..." From: http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=15186
The E-MU 0404 USB2.0 bi-directional audio interface ("sound card").
I wasn't aware that it was possible to do a USB audio interface that would work in both directions (rip & roar) and maintain the 24bit/192k data path ... I knew it was possible in "half-duplex", one way at a time, but was lead to believe that the handshaking and jitter would overwhelm the 24bit/192k bandwidth ... The E-MU folks must be using some kind of propriatary streaming technic as they appear to be the only ones making anything like this.
Hats off to 'em if it works and works well. Please let us all know how it works !!
(Caution: I will bet you should have genuine USB 2.0 ports on your computer, tied directly to the 2.5 and up PCI bus, no USB hubs in circuit, and a USB2.0 cable length shorter that 3 meters / 10 feet, directly connected to the port. Also I would recommend not having too many other high speed USB gadgets plugged into the computer. A 24bit/192k data stream is almost as fat as a quality DV camera's data stream = so similar considerations apply. Also note the cautionary message at bottom of their page: "Macintosh analog operation up to 96kHz and digital operation up to 48kHz only at this time - check www.emu.com for updates." ... that's cause most Macs use the USB circuits for all keyboards, mice, joysticks, printers, etc., and they don't have the internal 64bit PCI bus that some modern PCs have (yet).)
The E-MU 0404 USB2.0 bi-directional audio interface ("sound card").
I wasn't aware that it was possible to do a USB audio interface that would work in both directions (rip & roar) and maintain the 24bit/192k data path ... I knew it was possible in "half-duplex", one way at a time, but was lead to believe that the handshaking and jitter would overwhelm the 24bit/192k bandwidth ... The E-MU folks must be using some kind of propriatary streaming technic as they appear to be the only ones making anything like this.
Hats off to 'em if it works and works well. Please let us all know how it works !!
(Caution: I will bet you should have genuine USB 2.0 ports on your computer, tied directly to the 2.5 and up PCI bus, no USB hubs in circuit, and a USB2.0 cable length shorter that 3 meters / 10 feet, directly connected to the port. Also I would recommend not having too many other high speed USB gadgets plugged into the computer. A 24bit/192k data stream is almost as fat as a quality DV camera's data stream = so similar considerations apply. Also note the cautionary message at bottom of their page: "Macintosh analog operation up to 96kHz and digital operation up to 48kHz only at this time - check www.emu.com for updates." ... that's cause most Macs use the USB circuits for all keyboards, mice, joysticks, printers, etc., and they don't have the internal 64bit PCI bus that some modern PCs have (yet).)
If I'm forrectly informed, E-MU is owned by Creative, and technology sharing would be obvious. I just hope (for E-mu's reputation) that their studio gear doesn't become over-spec'ed like most PC equipment is.
As for the microphone someone commented on earlier:
Until 24/96 was invented, studios were happily using 16 bit as "studio quality". When playing back a CD, it's 16 bit, too.
I my oppinion, 16 bit can be studio quality. To me, tt's all about noise floor and dynamic range, really. A lot of "personal use" (and some pro-stuff) 24 bit equipment doesn't have a corresponding noise floor anyway, so effectively you don't get the number of signal level steps suggested by 24 bit equipment anyway.
As for the microphone someone commented on earlier:
Until 24/96 was invented, studios were happily using 16 bit as "studio quality". When playing back a CD, it's 16 bit, too.
I my oppinion, 16 bit can be studio quality. To me, tt's all about noise floor and dynamic range, really. A lot of "personal use" (and some pro-stuff) 24 bit equipment doesn't have a corresponding noise floor anyway, so effectively you don't get the number of signal level steps suggested by 24 bit equipment anyway.
Jennice said:
Anything beyond 21-22 bits is probably irrelevant except when you are doing math on the signal -- then you better have 32 bit+ ... what is important is the sampling rate. with the 1st converters starting to hit 384kHz we are just starting to get into the range where digital can really start to compete with analog. (BTW, when i 1st read Sony's CD white paper a couple years before the 1st CD players shipped (1979?), i was taking an advanced statistics course on sampling theory. At the time i said that they needed to get sampling rates up at least 8x 44 khz before they could compete -- nothing i've heard or seen has changed my mind on that statement based solely on the math). I find it quite amazing that they have managed to make CD players that sound as good as a good one does.
dave
Hi Planet,
considering that the CD standard is designed to use 1976 computer technology, I too am amazed they eventually got it to sound so good.
Shame on the industry for pushing lossy compression standards onto the download market, which appears to be taking over. Woh betide us for letting this happen.
If they had gone to 192Ksampling and 20bits then lossy compression might have been acceptable.
Even 5.1 audio off DVDvideo cannot meet that standard (because they don't care to try).
Based on your long experience, just how far short is 192ksampling?
considering that the CD standard is designed to use 1976 computer technology, I too am amazed they eventually got it to sound so good.
Shame on the industry for pushing lossy compression standards onto the download market, which appears to be taking over. Woh betide us for letting this happen.
If they had gone to 192Ksampling and 20bits then lossy compression might have been acceptable.
Even 5.1 audio off DVDvideo cannot meet that standard (because they don't care to try).
Based on your long experience, just how far short is 192ksampling?
Jennice: " ... [IMOP] 16 bit can be studio quality. To me, it's all about noise floor and dynamic range, really. A lot of "personal use" (and some pro-stuff) 24 bit equipment doesn't have a corresponding noise floor anyway, so effectively you don't get the number of signal level steps suggested by 24 bit equipment anywayÊ..."
planet10: " ... Anything beyond 21-22 bits is probably irrelevant except when you are doing math on the signal -- then you better have 32 bit+ ... what is important is the sampling rate. ..."
Of course there is the DVD video movie sound tracks = all 24bit (48k to 96k) ... and all DVD-A and most SACD is 24bit (48k to 192k).
The reduction from 24bit back to 16bit conversion often loses something in the translation = depending on the math / firmware of the D to D or D to A converters.
No experienced recording studio engineer would use a 16bit data path for the master "tapes".
FYI:
16 bit has dynamic range ~ 88 db bandwidth, max. = between the hush of a crowded auditorium (+ 40 to 50 dba) and the blast of a stack of cranked up Marshals (+95 to +100 dba) ...
24bit has the dynamic ~ 110 db to 120 db bandwidth = between the hush of a pine forest (+ 2 to +3 dba) and the blast of an F-16 @ 100 meters (+ 125 dba) ... Threshold of pain ~= +130 dba.
Recording & playback devices:
http://rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=702&ParentId=114
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FireWire410-main.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FireWire1814-main.html
http://industrialcomponent.com/maudio/lightbridge.html
http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24.htm (noise floor >> 110 db down)
Playback devices:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FirewireAudiophile-main.html (claimed noise floor >> 100 db down)
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Transit-focus.html
http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=15185
http://oppodigital.com/dv981hd/dv981hd_index.html
A content benchmark:
Compare Muddy Waters' album "Folksinger", 16bit CD verses 24bit DVD-A. Noticably better at 24bit DVD-A (almost as good as the recently rereleased vinyl) =
16bit CD = http://www.amazon.com/Folk-Singer-M..._bbs_sr_8/103-4554183-4116649?ie=UTF8&s=music
24bit DVD-A = http://classicrecords.com/catalog/store/detail.cfm?sku=HDAD-2008
The above CD when compared to the DVD-A disc = "All CDs suck" - Bob Dylan
(Mercinary announcement: If anyone wants to add FireWire 1394 to a system to take advantage of the fatter bandwidth & multichannel 24bit I/O, see: http://industrialcomponent.com/firewirestuff/fws46603.html ... throw the 4-pin card away (Mac or Linux only, non-OHCI junk), keep the 6-pin card & cable (OHCI class = ASIO compatible, no driver required, Mac, Linux or PC) ... all for the cost of the cable! ... and my company is dealer/distributor for all above except the DAD, the E-MU "sound cards" and the OPPO Digital player.)
planet10: " ... Anything beyond 21-22 bits is probably irrelevant except when you are doing math on the signal -- then you better have 32 bit+ ... what is important is the sampling rate. ..."
Of course there is the DVD video movie sound tracks = all 24bit (48k to 96k) ... and all DVD-A and most SACD is 24bit (48k to 192k).
The reduction from 24bit back to 16bit conversion often loses something in the translation = depending on the math / firmware of the D to D or D to A converters.
No experienced recording studio engineer would use a 16bit data path for the master "tapes".
FYI:
16 bit has dynamic range ~ 88 db bandwidth, max. = between the hush of a crowded auditorium (+ 40 to 50 dba) and the blast of a stack of cranked up Marshals (+95 to +100 dba) ...
24bit has the dynamic ~ 110 db to 120 db bandwidth = between the hush of a pine forest (+ 2 to +3 dba) and the blast of an F-16 @ 100 meters (+ 125 dba) ... Threshold of pain ~= +130 dba.
Recording & playback devices:
http://rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=702&ParentId=114
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FireWire410-main.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FireWire1814-main.html
http://industrialcomponent.com/maudio/lightbridge.html
http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24.htm (noise floor >> 110 db down)
Playback devices:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FirewireAudiophile-main.html (claimed noise floor >> 100 db down)
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Transit-focus.html
http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=15185
http://oppodigital.com/dv981hd/dv981hd_index.html
A content benchmark:
Compare Muddy Waters' album "Folksinger", 16bit CD verses 24bit DVD-A. Noticably better at 24bit DVD-A (almost as good as the recently rereleased vinyl) =
16bit CD = http://www.amazon.com/Folk-Singer-M..._bbs_sr_8/103-4554183-4116649?ie=UTF8&s=music
24bit DVD-A = http://classicrecords.com/catalog/store/detail.cfm?sku=HDAD-2008
The above CD when compared to the DVD-A disc = "All CDs suck" - Bob Dylan
(Mercinary announcement: If anyone wants to add FireWire 1394 to a system to take advantage of the fatter bandwidth & multichannel 24bit I/O, see: http://industrialcomponent.com/firewirestuff/fws46603.html ... throw the 4-pin card away (Mac or Linux only, non-OHCI junk), keep the 6-pin card & cable (OHCI class = ASIO compatible, no driver required, Mac, Linux or PC) ... all for the cost of the cable! ... and my company is dealer/distributor for all above except the DAD, the E-MU "sound cards" and the OPPO Digital player.)
Eddy,
I know what you mean about the dynamic range, but when squeezing the F16 into your living room, you loose the quietness of the pine forrest into the noise floor in most cases.
High level signals are easier to handle in terms of noise floor, but when your signal level is about 1 - 2 volts, your noise floor better be below 2 microvolts, if you want to enjoy the 120 dymanic range. Is it really down there?
Papers are easy to deal with. Real life can be harder. Consider this.
And please do keep your commercial announcements away from this forum! This is not a trade fair.
Jennice
I know what you mean about the dynamic range, but when squeezing the F16 into your living room, you loose the quietness of the pine forrest into the noise floor in most cases.
High level signals are easier to handle in terms of noise floor, but when your signal level is about 1 - 2 volts, your noise floor better be below 2 microvolts, if you want to enjoy the 120 dymanic range. Is it really down there?
Papers are easy to deal with. Real life can be harder. Consider this.
And please do keep your commercial announcements away from this forum! This is not a trade fair.
Jennice
AndrewT said:
I can only speak from theory... alot closer than 44 kHz. Just like when doing a 1st order XO in a speaker, each driver needs to reach at least 2 octaves beyond the XO point. If we look at digital in the same way... with a CD we have 0 octaves, 192 is 2 octaves... and that is if we assume that 20 kHz is enuff (and there are some very valid thought experiments that show that more is better.
dave
Hi,
I have read that DVDvideo does not use all it's audio capability for the audio channels.
If I were to speculate, I suspect the lesser channels resort to 18bit 48kHz to save bandwidth for much of the time and only switch to higher resolution when the producer thinks we need it.
Then they go and apply lossy compression and we end up with little better than high compression MP3 quality for most of the audio content.
The producers give us what they think we will put up with.
DVB is even worse, particularly on the commercial channels where the advertisers pay for their bit of bandwidth. Now there's an experiment; compare audio quality between adverts and piped music.
Maybe we should lobby for more audio quality at the expense of the "extra features" they attract us with.
I have read that DVDvideo does not use all it's audio capability for the audio channels.
I have seen quoted figures of 18bit to 20bit as the most common.
If I were to speculate, I suspect the lesser channels resort to 18bit 48kHz to save bandwidth for much of the time and only switch to higher resolution when the producer thinks we need it.
Then they go and apply lossy compression and we end up with little better than high compression MP3 quality for most of the audio content.
The producers give us what they think we will put up with.
DVB is even worse, particularly on the commercial channels where the advertisers pay for their bit of bandwidth. Now there's an experiment; compare audio quality between adverts and piped music.
Maybe we should lobby for more audio quality at the expense of the "extra features" they attract us with.
Interesting thread ...
Interesting thread started re: CD v. DVD audio and recording technics, etc. :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1136149#post1136149
Interesting thread started re: CD v. DVD audio and recording technics, etc. :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1136149#post1136149
richie00boy said:
With audio we are talking about 1976 computer tech, with the actual picture, we pretty much are still using early 1950s technology. The big leap in video is HD. The cost of flat panel screens are plummetting and as they do their price point meets more and more peoples need to have a new TV, and a mandated obselence (at least in NA) is legislated to happen real soon.
These new TVs (ATM) still have to limp along with upsampled DVD or you get limited HD from your cable provider (or more -- i understand) from some of the sat vendors. It is still at least a few years before we will be able to get our video on BluRay or HD-DVD (damn them for 2 standards again -- if they don't get that sorted the guys like Apple & iTunes + the cable & staelitte guys will establish a download model that makes having a silver disc a who cares.
dave
" ... we will be able to get our video on BluRay or HD-DVD ... damn them for 2 standards again -- if they don't get that sorted the guys like Apple & iTunes + the cable & staelitte guys will establish a download model ..."
You got that right ... and sure as heck they will screw it up. (HD Radio = no better than Virgin Atlantic on line = 32k bps = :>( ... Apple "Lost Less, found less" optical audio = no better than 16 bit = :>( ... )
BluRay sucks already = no significant content available = no decent movies yet = no "pure" audio at all that I can find. The only thing going for BluRay is a slightly wider audio bandwidth.
HD DVD ... Look for players that can handle 1080i = maximum required for this.
Flat Panel monitors / TVs of the 16x9 viewing ratio (aspect) are all that is needed and these are (as you say) dropping fast in price. (I just got a couple of flat screens for the office, specifying 16X9 / 20 to 21 inch screen ... and I have a 16X9 24" Samsung at home ... but I don't think I'll be getting any 18.5X9 or what ever they are calling it as these are not coming down in price at all and so far have limited models to chose from = all too big for me, the office or the wife.)
DVD-A ... seems to be as good or better than SACD and is playable on all DVD players ... you just have to search for a decent "universal" player with 24bit/96k or better DAC. (And you can burn your own at home without any special equipment, licenses, decoders or encoders ... other than a DVD-RW burner/player.)
Sony may be biting the big on ... again ... as BetaMax, SACD and BluRay just don't have the mass of content that VHS, DVD-A and HD DVD have already ... Sony also seems to be shooting themselves in the foot with their own content. That "Modern Times" / Bob Dylan album is (deliberately?) a perfect screw up of a decent set of tunes by over compression of the studio produce, almost as if one division of Sony wasn't aware that the other division was actively promoting high resolution audio (SACD) =
You got that right ... and sure as heck they will screw it up. (HD Radio = no better than Virgin Atlantic on line = 32k bps = :>( ... Apple "Lost Less, found less" optical audio = no better than 16 bit = :>( ... )
BluRay sucks already = no significant content available = no decent movies yet = no "pure" audio at all that I can find. The only thing going for BluRay is a slightly wider audio bandwidth.
HD DVD ... Look for players that can handle 1080i = maximum required for this.
Flat Panel monitors / TVs of the 16x9 viewing ratio (aspect) are all that is needed and these are (as you say) dropping fast in price. (I just got a couple of flat screens for the office, specifying 16X9 / 20 to 21 inch screen ... and I have a 16X9 24" Samsung at home ... but I don't think I'll be getting any 18.5X9 or what ever they are calling it as these are not coming down in price at all and so far have limited models to chose from = all too big for me, the office or the wife.)
DVD-A ... seems to be as good or better than SACD and is playable on all DVD players ... you just have to search for a decent "universal" player with 24bit/96k or better DAC. (And you can burn your own at home without any special equipment, licenses, decoders or encoders ... other than a DVD-RW burner/player.)
Sony may be biting the big on ... again ... as BetaMax, SACD and BluRay just don't have the mass of content that VHS, DVD-A and HD DVD have already ... Sony also seems to be shooting themselves in the foot with their own content. That "Modern Times" / Bob Dylan album is (deliberately?) a perfect screw up of a decent set of tunes by over compression of the studio produce, almost as if one division of Sony wasn't aware that the other division was actively promoting high resolution audio (SACD) =
Dave, I'm on about some (not all) shows that seem to be MPEG-1 quality at best, with horrendous pixellation on contrast changes. These tend to be shows from the US I find. Not all US shows I hasten to add, just some.
Whan I'm seeing the standard of LCD TV and what not. They need to sort that out before we get excited about HD capable TV sets.
Whan I'm seeing the standard of LCD TV and what not. They need to sort that out before we get excited about HD capable TV sets.
Banned
Joined 2002
As i have just been in school for the past week and a half, my teacher has just given me the opportunity to buy some tools that will help me in the best way, with designing speakers and with placements and other sorts of things. As this course is designed for me to start installing major home theater systems on Vancouver island, i now see that having this course was well worth the money.
He has recommended the Following.
Emu 0404 USb sound card $200.00
Behringer ECM 8000 Microphone $60$
and since i was in school i get a discount for software for RTA SPL and room placement and other very useful tools that i need to have Truaudio.com for RTA level software.
Jase
He has recommended the Following.
Emu 0404 USb sound card $200.00
Behringer ECM 8000 Microphone $60$
and since i was in school i get a discount for software for RTA SPL and room placement and other very useful tools that i need to have Truaudio.com for RTA level software.
Jase
Hello,
I guess this thread is really old in internet time , but here is a great book explaining quite a bit (no pun intended) on digital audio.
Digital Audio Explained by Nika Aldrich
http://www.cadenzarecording.com/
I am not connected to the book or website.
I do know Nika from rec audio pro forums and gearslutz forums.
Good read for anyone interested in the fundamentals of digital audio.
Out,
Robert
I guess this thread is really old in internet time , but here is a great book explaining quite a bit (no pun intended) on digital audio.
Digital Audio Explained by Nika Aldrich
http://www.cadenzarecording.com/
I am not connected to the book or website.
I do know Nika from rec audio pro forums and gearslutz forums.
Good read for anyone interested in the fundamentals of digital audio.
Out,
Robert
"Digital Audio Explained" by Nika Aldrich
Looking at the web site ... my impression is that this is very well thought out, but not for the faint at heart (pro engineer only) ...
Anyone got anything that might appeal to musicians? (Definition: Musician: ... can do, but doesn't really know how it happens. ... an artist totally clueless about what happens after the noise hits the microphone ...)
Even the wikipedia entries about "loudness wars", "digital audio", etc ... don't quite boil it down to the musician's level. "Hey man, I know what I like ... What's a bit? and how many do I need?"
Looking at the web site ... my impression is that this is very well thought out, but not for the faint at heart (pro engineer only) ...
Anyone got anything that might appeal to musicians? (Definition: Musician: ... can do, but doesn't really know how it happens. ... an artist totally clueless about what happens after the noise hits the microphone ...)
Even the wikipedia entries about "loudness wars", "digital audio", etc ... don't quite boil it down to the musician's level. "Hey man, I know what I like ... What's a bit? and how many do I need?"
Recommend this Ester-200
http://www.digihobby.co.kr/front/php/product.php?product_no=445&main_cate_no=146&display_group=1
Ester-200 have 4 buttons to control winamp and etc.
It also have two usb ports and headphone jack. It has 2-watt power amp inside for speakers.
If you want to use another preamp, then Ester-200 support Optical and Coaxial Digital Output.
http://www.digihobby.co.kr/front/php/product.php?product_no=445&main_cate_no=146&display_group=1
Ester-200 have 4 buttons to control winamp and etc.
It also have two usb ports and headphone jack. It has 2-watt power amp inside for speakers.
If you want to use another preamp, then Ester-200 support Optical and Coaxial Digital Output.
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