Hi,
I am not a DIYer, so unfortunately cannot take advantage of any cheap home brew solutions that might exist, but would appreciate some advice on what I could purchase that might solve the following situation (given the amount of snakeskin marketing around the subject and my lack of technical expertise to separate the chaff from the...). I am in Australia (shipping of heavy products from the US is usually $100's so would prefer to buy locally if possible):
I think there is an underlying power problem with the house electricity supply I'm using. This manifests itself as clicks and pops through the speakers eg. quite a loud thump when a particular light is turned off (thump is loudest in my new speakers, but the underlying problem is independent of cables, amplifier, speakers). The problem is greatly diminished without any inputs into the speakers, but this does not elimintate it. I have tried a couple of available power outlets to no avail.
I've researched line conditioners, but the problem is which one might actually work? I'm prepared to spend a few hundred dollars to fix this if required. What brands/models should I consider?
For what it's worth, current equipment (no pun intended) is Event Opal speakers. Specs available here http://www.event1.com/index.php Click skip to avoid the marketing BS and then the link to "The specs"
Summary -- Need a power conditioner that:
* operates on 240V
* will work with high powered amp / speakers (i.e. will improve the sound not make it worse)
* ideally would have some outlets to plug in other components such as computer (though priority is the speakers)
* I can use for years to come... to that extent something like the Belkin products such as http://www.belkin.com/au/IWCatSectionView.process?Section_Id=207102 with lifetime warranty and insurance appeal, but I am not sure they are the best solution eg. I can't find any meaningful specs on them
* ideally, is portable -- so I can take it with me if/when I move.
Thanks in advance for any advice
Stuart
I am not a DIYer, so unfortunately cannot take advantage of any cheap home brew solutions that might exist, but would appreciate some advice on what I could purchase that might solve the following situation (given the amount of snakeskin marketing around the subject and my lack of technical expertise to separate the chaff from the...). I am in Australia (shipping of heavy products from the US is usually $100's so would prefer to buy locally if possible):
I think there is an underlying power problem with the house electricity supply I'm using. This manifests itself as clicks and pops through the speakers eg. quite a loud thump when a particular light is turned off (thump is loudest in my new speakers, but the underlying problem is independent of cables, amplifier, speakers). The problem is greatly diminished without any inputs into the speakers, but this does not elimintate it. I have tried a couple of available power outlets to no avail.
I've researched line conditioners, but the problem is which one might actually work? I'm prepared to spend a few hundred dollars to fix this if required. What brands/models should I consider?
For what it's worth, current equipment (no pun intended) is Event Opal speakers. Specs available here http://www.event1.com/index.php Click skip to avoid the marketing BS and then the link to "The specs"
Summary -- Need a power conditioner that:
* operates on 240V
* will work with high powered amp / speakers (i.e. will improve the sound not make it worse)
* ideally would have some outlets to plug in other components such as computer (though priority is the speakers)
* I can use for years to come... to that extent something like the Belkin products such as http://www.belkin.com/au/IWCatSectionView.process?Section_Id=207102 with lifetime warranty and insurance appeal, but I am not sure they are the best solution eg. I can't find any meaningful specs on them
* ideally, is portable -- so I can take it with me if/when I move.
Thanks in advance for any advice
Stuart
Stu_M said:
Hi Stuart
It's best to find the source/s of interference and atack the problem there. It maybe transmitted by RF over the air since you changed outlets/ but maybe not... if you didn't really change the circuit ie controlled from a diff breaker. If this is the case no line conditioning after the fact can help.
1) It may be best and cheapest to simply replace the lamp?
2) Snubbers ( a capacitor and small resistor) can be installed to solve most switched related problems if you are inclined more towards DIY.
3) Best to use a dedicated circuit... but maybe not an option for you.
4) IMO more troubleshooting is needed to really recommend a useful solution.
Re: Re: Which line filter is best?
Thanks Infinia,
Further troubleshooting may be problematic (eg. I don't even know which things are on which circuit) but i'll give it a go. It's not just that lamp that causes the noises (but it is by far the worst offender).
What is a "dedicated circuit" and how would I go about buying one?
Many thanks
Stuart
Thanks Infinia,
Further troubleshooting may be problematic (eg. I don't even know which things are on which circuit) but i'll give it a go. It's not just that lamp that causes the noises (but it is by far the worst offender).
What is a "dedicated circuit" and how would I go about buying one?
Many thanks
Stuart
infinia said:
Stu some trouble shooting tips
you can turn off individual breakers at the panel to see what the various circuits are powering ie which outlets. Then try to get the lamp and audio on seperate breakers or circuits. When you get them on seperate circuits and the problem remains the same, then it's probably RF transmitted.
RF is transmitted by a spark usually at the switch. Fix is to add a snubber across the switch.
A dedicated circuit is just that... one breaker or circuit that is dedicated for your audio. An electrician could install one.
you can turn off individual breakers at the panel to see what the various circuits are powering ie which outlets. Then try to get the lamp and audio on seperate breakers or circuits. When you get them on seperate circuits and the problem remains the same, then it's probably RF transmitted.
RF is transmitted by a spark usually at the switch. Fix is to add a snubber across the switch.
A dedicated circuit is just that... one breaker or circuit that is dedicated for your audio. An electrician could install one.
Re trouble shooting:I don't really have a choice of which power outlets I can use, so I'm stuck with stuff on the same circuit (even just unplugging a heater that is switched off and plugged in on a separate power board produces the noise). I can replace the light, which is the worst offender but that won't completely eliminate the problem.
Also, the dedicated circuit is not practical because it sounds too expensive for a non-portable fix (when it's not my house and I will be moving sooner than later).
Are there are possible solutions I could look at? The ones that seem to come up time and again on the Internet are UPS or isolation transformers, but I wouldn't know what to look for in either and perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree anyway. (Seems like there's quite a bit of used hospital equipment that may do the trick but again I have no idea what to get).
FWIW -- just tried a $33 powerboard EMI/RFI filter which did nothing to help.
Cheers
Stuart
Also, the dedicated circuit is not practical because it sounds too expensive for a non-portable fix (when it's not my house and I will be moving sooner than later).
Are there are possible solutions I could look at? The ones that seem to come up time and again on the Internet are UPS or isolation transformers, but I wouldn't know what to look for in either and perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree anyway. (Seems like there's quite a bit of used hospital equipment that may do the trick but again I have no idea what to get).
FWIW -- just tried a $33 powerboard EMI/RFI filter which did nothing to help.
Cheers
Stuart
infinia said:
Stu_M said:
What do you mean tried it on what... the lamp?
Sounds like you have a piece of gear that's really sensitive. Find out what which one... by more trouble shooting even borrowing another amp. Really still cannot recommend anything without more symptoms.
FWIW Good iso transformers are expensive to power big amps and maybe not sure to solve all your problems. Fix and/or replace the noise sources as you find them.
Stu_M said:
Stu_M said:
With a new system your listening is mostably at a higher gain state rather than the speakers.
Since your problem seems to be when switching lamps and heaters, other than adding snubbers or not turning them on/off, you'll probably just have to put up with it, untill you move to a place with at least two circuits/ breakers. You could buy a extreme iso transformer at the risk of not much improvement either.
Would you be able to post a couple of links to the equipment (and quality) you refer to. I have found a local company that may be prepared to lend me an iso transformer (at a lower capacity than I need for peak power) to see if it helps (and if successful I could get a higher capacity one custom made from them for Aus$500-600).
After what you have said I will either learn to live with it or purchase something only if I can try it first.
Incidentally, a decent UPS wouldn't be a sure fire solution either?
Cheers
Stuart
After what you have said I will either learn to live with it or purchase something only if I can try it first.
Incidentally, a decent UPS wouldn't be a sure fire solution either?
Cheers
Stuart
infinia said:
With a new system your listening is mostably at a higher gain state rather than the speakers.
Since your problem seems to be when switching lamps and heaters, other than adding snubbers or not turning them on/off, you'll probably just have to put up with it, untill you move to a place with at least two circuits/ breakers. You could buy a extreme iso transformer at the risk of not much improvement either.
I use three Phoenix Contact NEF 1-10 line filters, one for each load (CD player, pre amp and power amp), in an ABS box. They're all DIN rail mount and the ABS box has a DIN rail, so it was fairly easy to assemble.
This works well for me, and I am in the same position as you; my audio gear shares a circuit with other noisy equipment.
As far as I have seen, most of the 'line filters' available are fairly useless, usually consisting of one mains filter cap (even some very expensive 'audio grade' ones). The industrial line filter that I linked to has a cap between live and neutral, a cap from each to ground, and a choke that both neutral and live runs through.
This works well for me, and I am in the same position as you; my audio gear shares a circuit with other noisy equipment.
As far as I have seen, most of the 'line filters' available are fairly useless, usually consisting of one mains filter cap (even some very expensive 'audio grade' ones). The industrial line filter that I linked to has a cap between live and neutral, a cap from each to ground, and a choke that both neutral and live runs through.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CCM1868-NDamc184 said:
These are better (in more ways than one...
)
Well, that depends. They have roughly the same max current load and attenuation, so neither is electrically better. Which form factor you would want to use would depend on your application. The one you suggested would be a good one to install into an amplifier.
Of course my line filter has one big advantage; it exists
.Attachments
Getting a bit confused -- don't know which specs to compare to identify what is best.
Given that I can't find any source for surplus iso transformers from hospitals (plenty from the US, anyone know of an Aussie source for used ones?) and a decent one would cost me $600, should I consider a UPS that would possibly solve my problem AND offer the benefit of battery backup for brown outs, i.e. I would also connect my computer to it.
Something like a 1500VA (or a couple of smaller units):
http://powerquality.eaton.com/Products-services/Backup-Power-UPS/5110.aspx
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/477096.html
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Eaton-Powerw...temQQimsxZ20090605?IMSfp=TL090605157001r15903
So question is:
1. Which is "best" for power conditioning, a decent iso transformer or a UPS? To the casual observer seems like they do the same job but a UPS also guards against power outtages (at least for a few seconds or minutes). Don't they also guarantee pure sine wave output
2. What numbers (specs) identify a good iso transformer or UPS?
eg. how come the UPS I link to is so cheap?
Cheers
Stuart
Given that I can't find any source for surplus iso transformers from hospitals (plenty from the US, anyone know of an Aussie source for used ones?) and a decent one would cost me $600, should I consider a UPS that would possibly solve my problem AND offer the benefit of battery backup for brown outs, i.e. I would also connect my computer to it.
Something like a 1500VA (or a couple of smaller units):
http://powerquality.eaton.com/Products-services/Backup-Power-UPS/5110.aspx
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/477096.html
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Eaton-Powerw...temQQimsxZ20090605?IMSfp=TL090605157001r15903
So question is:
1. Which is "best" for power conditioning, a decent iso transformer or a UPS? To the casual observer seems like they do the same job but a UPS also guards against power outtages (at least for a few seconds or minutes). Don't they also guarantee pure sine wave output
2. What numbers (specs) identify a good iso transformer or UPS?
eg. how come the UPS I link to is so cheap?
Cheers
Stuart
I think you've got a bit off track.
I don't think a UPS is going to help (they are a backup supply, usually with a surge protector, not a line filter), and an isolation transformer will work, but will be hideously expensive.
A line filter is your best bet. They are a filter designed to attenuate anything not around the 50Hz AC that should be there, such as switching noise from other appliances. They are designed to solve exactly the problem you describe.
Farnell is your best source for line filters. They have a specific category for line filters; Passive Components > EMC/RFI Suppression > Suppression Filters, Power Line . There are about 600 line filters in this category.
Something like this would be good to replace an amp's existing IEC style mains inlet.
Something like this could be mounted in a box with inlet and outlet cords or sockets, to make a smaller version of the filter unit I posted a picture of.
I don't think a UPS is going to help (they are a backup supply, usually with a surge protector, not a line filter), and an isolation transformer will work, but will be hideously expensive.
A line filter is your best bet. They are a filter designed to attenuate anything not around the 50Hz AC that should be there, such as switching noise from other appliances. They are designed to solve exactly the problem you describe.
Farnell is your best source for line filters. They have a specific category for line filters; Passive Components > EMC/RFI Suppression > Suppression Filters, Power Line . There are about 600 line filters in this category.
Something like this would be good to replace an amp's existing IEC style mains inlet.
Something like this could be mounted in a box with inlet and outlet cords or sockets, to make a smaller version of the filter unit I posted a picture of.
A vendor of isolation transformers copied this info off a forum for me... hence the confusion
"an isolation transformer will simply be a transformer that doesn't adjust the AC voltage.. it has some surge protection and noise filtering built in too.
the line conditioner takes the voltage and frequency that the wall is giving you and gives you a 240V 50Hz signal. this is useful because these change over the course of the day (peak and off peak) so if you have a non-regulated power supply, your DC rails in your equipment will go up and down proportionately.
a good UPS should do both of the above, but will also have a battery so that if there is a power failure, the device will continue to put out 240V 50Hz from the battery for a short time. the length of time will depend on how much power is required and how big the battery is.
cheaper UPSs won't do the line conditioning part when the mains is normally on, and when they're on battery mode will probably give you pretty dirty power (lots of noise on the AC) so they're probably not going to be an improvement.
the only real other consideration is to get one that is going to support the peak current of your appliances. bearing in mind that while an amp might consume (perhaps) 240W, which when you are thinking about 240V is 1Amp, it won't be drawing 1A constantly, it will be drawing it in a very short period of time and then not drawing all that much for the rest of the AC cycle. so you might want to get one significantly larger than the smallest size required.
people often complain that power conditioners make the system less dynamic and have less slam, and having a power conditioner that is too small like this could be the problem. "
"an isolation transformer will simply be a transformer that doesn't adjust the AC voltage.. it has some surge protection and noise filtering built in too.
the line conditioner takes the voltage and frequency that the wall is giving you and gives you a 240V 50Hz signal. this is useful because these change over the course of the day (peak and off peak) so if you have a non-regulated power supply, your DC rails in your equipment will go up and down proportionately.
a good UPS should do both of the above, but will also have a battery so that if there is a power failure, the device will continue to put out 240V 50Hz from the battery for a short time. the length of time will depend on how much power is required and how big the battery is.
cheaper UPSs won't do the line conditioning part when the mains is normally on, and when they're on battery mode will probably give you pretty dirty power (lots of noise on the AC) so they're probably not going to be an improvement.
the only real other consideration is to get one that is going to support the peak current of your appliances. bearing in mind that while an amp might consume (perhaps) 240W, which when you are thinking about 240V is 1Amp, it won't be drawing 1A constantly, it will be drawing it in a very short period of time and then not drawing all that much for the rest of the AC cycle. so you might want to get one significantly larger than the smallest size required.
people often complain that power conditioners make the system less dynamic and have less slam, and having a power conditioner that is too small like this could be the problem. "
A line filter and line conditioner are completely dissimilar.
A line conditioner is an active device that rectifies AC to DC, regulates the DC and supplies it to an inverter which converts it back to AC. A UPS is similar, but with an important addition; the DC supplied to the inverter can come from mains supply or a battery.
Two issues here:
- You will have to spend a lot of money to get a good conditioner, anything remotely inexpensive will output a poor approximation of AC made up of various square waves, and you will be worse off.
- A UPS is not usually the same as a line conditioner. The inverter section will only operate whilst on battery supply. The rest of the time the output is the same as the input. The inverter on a UPS probably would have a low duty cycle, and be incapable of long periods of operation anyway.
A line filter, the solution I am suggesting, is simply a passive filter made up only of passive components. Much cheaper and very effective. There are some cases where line conditioners and UPS are useful, audio is not one of them.
Did you have a look at any of the links I posted?
A line conditioner is an active device that rectifies AC to DC, regulates the DC and supplies it to an inverter which converts it back to AC. A UPS is similar, but with an important addition; the DC supplied to the inverter can come from mains supply or a battery.
Two issues here:
- You will have to spend a lot of money to get a good conditioner, anything remotely inexpensive will output a poor approximation of AC made up of various square waves, and you will be worse off.
- A UPS is not usually the same as a line conditioner. The inverter section will only operate whilst on battery supply. The rest of the time the output is the same as the input. The inverter on a UPS probably would have a low duty cycle, and be incapable of long periods of operation anyway.
A line filter, the solution I am suggesting, is simply a passive filter made up only of passive components. Much cheaper and very effective. There are some cases where line conditioners and UPS are useful, audio is not one of them.
Did you have a look at any of the links I posted?
Stu_M said:
Your noise complaint is due to transient in nature spike with a low frequency component which won't be attenuated much by a common mode filter that others are suggesting here. The noise will be a transverse spike of indeterminate pulse width but mostly a small fraction of 50Hz. We still don't know if it is RF transmitted (does your system even have a ground with a shielded chassis)?
Filters using a common mode choke with bypass caps have some filtering of transverse mode but only at 10's to 100's of KHz so not very effective for what you want.
An isolation trasformer is a bandpass filter centered at the line frequency will be your best bet.
An experiment... use a good heavy extension cord to your kitchen and try it using the lamp/heater and then conversely the audio.
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