How big the setup should be, I don't know!
The lower the better, but I do intend to put very good drivers, because I want the best performance; If I do it, it better be done right!
It's supposed to treat about 100 persons, and should be capable of good bass response, and good distribution in space.
It's hard to determine the budget because different choices will require different amplifiers and other components. I like the idea that BillFitzmaurice's designs are efficient, that cuts down costs big time.
I wanted to ask, what are the pluses and minuses of horns?
The lower the better, but I do intend to put very good drivers, because I want the best performance; If I do it, it better be done right!
It's supposed to treat about 100 persons, and should be capable of good bass response, and good distribution in space.
It's hard to determine the budget because different choices will require different amplifiers and other components. I like the idea that BillFitzmaurice's designs are efficient, that cuts down costs big time.
I wanted to ask, what are the pluses and minuses of horns?
The only minus of horns is the complexity of construction; older designs are very large, but that limitaton has been overcome as modern drivers allow horns to be made no larger than direct radiators that are 6-12dB less sensitive. On the factory level they are expensive to produce, limiting them to the +$5k pro-sound market for the most part. You won't see them marketed for a $299 retail.
Adam,
First,
What kind of music do you play at these gatherings? This is important in determining how low you really need the bass to go. eg synthesized Rave music needs to go significantly lower than rock music to get the proper effect. Really low bass is harder and more expensive to create at high SPLs
Second,
You really need some kind of budget. Help is available but a budget constraint is needed.
Third,
A well designed properly build horn can be great and a poor implementation of a horn may go very loud but sound terrible. To get really deep bass, they need to be big. Also, they take more woodwork, so what kind of woodworking capacity and capabilities do you have?
Fourth,
How much portability do you need? Bills horns look like 1 person could carry them easily. A pair Decware's modified Jensen Imperial horns could be perfect for you sound needs, but each one takes about 5 sheets of plywood and takes at least 2 strong guys to move. Line arrays will take a bunch of drivers, but you could build them in units of whatever lengths you want out of say PVC pipe, so they'd be light and easily portable. Just make them so they bolt together for stacking as tall as you want.
First,
What kind of music do you play at these gatherings? This is important in determining how low you really need the bass to go. eg synthesized Rave music needs to go significantly lower than rock music to get the proper effect. Really low bass is harder and more expensive to create at high SPLs
Second,
You really need some kind of budget. Help is available but a budget constraint is needed.
Third,
A well designed properly build horn can be great and a poor implementation of a horn may go very loud but sound terrible. To get really deep bass, they need to be big. Also, they take more woodwork, so what kind of woodworking capacity and capabilities do you have?
Fourth,
How much portability do you need? Bills horns look like 1 person could carry them easily. A pair Decware's modified Jensen Imperial horns could be perfect for you sound needs, but each one takes about 5 sheets of plywood and takes at least 2 strong guys to move. Line arrays will take a bunch of drivers, but you could build them in units of whatever lengths you want out of say PVC pipe, so they'd be light and easily portable. Just make them so they bolt together for stacking as tall as you want.
Hey johninCR !
1. I need the good low bass. Psytrance is also played.
2. let's say, ~$800 for woofers, for a basic very good sounding speaker configuration that is adaquate for up to 100 to enjoy, not to blast them away. If more funds are needed, I would rather make it adaquate for less people, and maybe later I could raise funds to magnify the setup.
3. a friend works in a workshop. no problem.
4. Not very good portability, for now. My dad's subaro forester (it's called a "stationwagon", right?).I can also put stuff on the roof and fold the back seets. Of coarse that I can get a car of another friend if help is needed.
Light and small is good, Bill's designs are very attractive at the moment.
1. I need the good low bass. Psytrance is also played.
2. let's say, ~$800 for woofers, for a basic very good sounding speaker configuration that is adaquate for up to 100 to enjoy, not to blast them away. If more funds are needed, I would rather make it adaquate for less people, and maybe later I could raise funds to magnify the setup.
3. a friend works in a workshop. no problem.
4. Not very good portability, for now. My dad's subaro forester (it's called a "stationwagon", right?).I can also put stuff on the roof and fold the back seets. Of coarse that I can get a car of another friend if help is needed.
Light and small is good, Bill's designs are very attractive at the moment.
It sounds like Bill's cabs are the way to go for you. That way you can always add more cabs to stack up. Get his advice on driver selection and what to do about the extreme low end.
I personally would go a different route, but I'm cheap and I love dipole line arrays and love to experiment. I get some 4" drivers down here for $1.50 each that sound sweet from 100-10khz on OB. Then I'd build 4 8ft foldable baffles and make them stackable with guide wires for stability. Each baffle would have a 6" front, one 15" wing and one 10" wing. On each I would put 16 4" drivers and 1 high efficiency titanium bullet tweeter (tweaked with little pieces of foam rubber in the throat to remove the harshness) about $15/pair. Only a 1st order highpass cap for the array and the cap that comes with the tweeter (add an Lpad to the tweeter). If I could make it stable, I'd have the top section angled down slightly toward the audience.
Then hopefully this is for use at a park or somewhere that space isn't limited because the dipole bass units are going to take some room. A lot of wind could be problematic. I'd use my $12.50/ea 12" woofers 12-16 drivers per side laid out in an arc for a focused horizontal array.
I'd put 2 woofers in the center of each 18" X 48" baffle. Each would lay on it's side and have some kind of folding legs for support. The wing for each would be a sheet of plywood that would attach to the baffle. You might even be able to go with the plywood lengthwise and put 2 baffle units under each, which would be much more stable with the baffles angled. You'd have to experiment to see how low the bass would go, but a 4ft depth might work since the ground is a free ride and you'd have a 24ft or greater width. Overlap the baffle by a foot or so to protect the drivers from getting kicked. If you can keep people from sitting or standing on it you could use 1/4" or 3/8" plywood. Use detachable legs for support in the back. You could always put the wings on an angle to keep people off, but stability would be more of an issue.
This would be a bit bulky to tranport and take an hour or so to set up. But it would put out better sound than any pro sound set up and easily run off of a 100 watt per channel amp and cost less than $500 plus a bunch of plywood.
I personally would go a different route, but I'm cheap and I love dipole line arrays and love to experiment. I get some 4" drivers down here for $1.50 each that sound sweet from 100-10khz on OB. Then I'd build 4 8ft foldable baffles and make them stackable with guide wires for stability. Each baffle would have a 6" front, one 15" wing and one 10" wing. On each I would put 16 4" drivers and 1 high efficiency titanium bullet tweeter (tweaked with little pieces of foam rubber in the throat to remove the harshness) about $15/pair. Only a 1st order highpass cap for the array and the cap that comes with the tweeter (add an Lpad to the tweeter). If I could make it stable, I'd have the top section angled down slightly toward the audience.
Then hopefully this is for use at a park or somewhere that space isn't limited because the dipole bass units are going to take some room. A lot of wind could be problematic. I'd use my $12.50/ea 12" woofers 12-16 drivers per side laid out in an arc for a focused horizontal array.
I'd put 2 woofers in the center of each 18" X 48" baffle. Each would lay on it's side and have some kind of folding legs for support. The wing for each would be a sheet of plywood that would attach to the baffle. You might even be able to go with the plywood lengthwise and put 2 baffle units under each, which would be much more stable with the baffles angled. You'd have to experiment to see how low the bass would go, but a 4ft depth might work since the ground is a free ride and you'd have a 24ft or greater width. Overlap the baffle by a foot or so to protect the drivers from getting kicked. If you can keep people from sitting or standing on it you could use 1/4" or 3/8" plywood. Use detachable legs for support in the back. You could always put the wings on an angle to keep people off, but stability would be more of an issue.
This would be a bit bulky to tranport and take an hour or so to set up. But it would put out better sound than any pro sound set up and easily run off of a 100 watt per channel amp and cost less than $500 plus a bunch of plywood.
"Any" was a bit strong. "Typical" is a better word. Pro sound generally doesn't sound very good. It's designed for output not SQ. It's easy to get a nice natural sound using small drivers with open baffles. Add to that the clarity and detail of dipole bass and and pro sound can't touch it. You just need a lot of drivers and the benefit of line array dispersion to create the SPL that you need. While cheap drivers can sound good individually at moderate levels, if you drive them hard they distort quickly. Power handling and low distortion at high output is generally what differentiates an expensive driver from a good sounding cheap driver, not the sound quality at moderate levels. Don't just buy any cheap driver though. The majority sound bad at any volume.
With that kind of setup, it would be a one-of-a-kind thing that people would talk and ask about, because no one has seen or heard anything like it before. Another benefit would be that focusing the sound toward the group will make it great in the prime listening area but much lower outside of it and much less chance of complaints from the neighbors.
With that kind of setup, it would be a one-of-a-kind thing that people would talk and ask about, because no one has seen or heard anything like it before. Another benefit would be that focusing the sound toward the group will make it great in the prime listening area but much lower outside of it and much less chance of complaints from the neighbors.
Theoretically the vertical arrays disperse the same as point source speakers within the vertical plane of the array. To me the off axis response is better with arrays, but I think that may be an aural illusion caused by the fact when you stand up while listening to a point soure, that puts you off axis, but not with an array. Also a point source speaker gets quieter twice as fast as an array as you move away from it.
For your application evaluating the off axis response of the vertical array drivers would be important in auditioning which ones to buy.
For the horizontal woofer array you would want to be careful not to use a small arc, just a very shallow curve or maybe just a shallow v shape. You'd need to experiment with it to determine what works best. The really interesting effect would be when you walk just past the plane of the woofer array. It would be almost like they were turned way down suddenly. It's amazing how much the sound is concentrated within the plain of a line array.
For your application evaluating the off axis response of the vertical array drivers would be important in auditioning which ones to buy.
For the horizontal woofer array you would want to be careful not to use a small arc, just a very shallow curve or maybe just a shallow v shape. You'd need to experiment with it to determine what works best. The really interesting effect would be when you walk just past the plane of the woofer array. It would be almost like they were turned way down suddenly. It's amazing how much the sound is concentrated within the plain of a line array.
Well, cheap under-engineered pro sound sounds bad. Theres a lot of good gear out there. Some of it mainstream like any of the Meyer Ultra series or Line Array M series cabinets, and some of it isn't mainstream like the LDS LineSource or Macpherson Monoliths. There is really great sounding cabinets out there but it's not cheap cause it's not easy to do.
If they sounded great, then the low power tube croud of audiophiles would be using them in their systems. They are always looking for high efficiency. Pro sound is different because the goal is different. $800 isn't going to go very far for pro sound equipment, plus he'd have to power it with pro sound equipment AND he wants the low bass for trance music OUTSIDE.
As long as the bulkiness of the system I proposed both for transport and as setup isn't an issue, the worst case would be that he wants more output. He's already got the drivers, so it would just be a matter of covering the drivers with enough open cell foam rubber to turn them into aperiodic operation. Then power handling will increase significantly and the need for big baffle wings would go away.
As long as the bulkiness of the system I proposed both for transport and as setup isn't an issue, the worst case would be that he wants more output. He's already got the drivers, so it would just be a matter of covering the drivers with enough open cell foam rubber to turn them into aperiodic operation. Then power handling will increase significantly and the need for big baffle wings would go away.
Not saying that any pro sound cabinet is directly relatable or perfect for home use, cause as you said, it's a different market/world. Although the old altec gear has certainly found a new market there. The best of home speakers probably wouldn't have the throw needed for medium to large venues, and certainly wouldn't stand 5 minutes of road use with stagehands that don't give a ******. (I'm union so I can say that) It's the right tool for the right job. But saying that the right tool for pro sound doesn't already exsist is kinda silly if you havn't heard whats out there.
That's very true, $800 would not go far. I mean, most of the stuff I mentioned is around 3-5K per box. Pricey stufff. I've never had the opportunity to hear a dipole but from what I've read about them they are certainly worth hearing. Although I swear that I've seen a cabinet built for "pro sound" that sure looked like it was based off or was a bipole. How are they with respect to even coverage of spl and energy/frequency? With the one you have listened to, what's the coverage pattern like?
Swedish Chef said:
Yes the ports are horned at both ends. They are made from a two piece fiberglass mold of my own design. Approx 1/4" thick
No kidding, the colour coding was only because of using up old cans of spray paint. I liked them, so they stayed that way.
Piezo, no sir. They are a small one piece Pyle titanium dome compression 3X10 horn. Nice little unit but it sqwaks at you a bit. The 6.5" mid is a Gefco mid bass.
The dual 10 and mid/high cabinets go together as the little system and are run that with a 130 wpc Fisher.
The rest of the speakers are run with a Carver cube bridged on each of the big boxes and a Hafler DH-500 split on the A7 units.
Master and slave preamp are h/k
The A4's have Pyramid woofers, the A7's have Selenium high and low.
All Crossover are passive. Mostly Solen Stuff.
The Cd players are Kenwood. One for five discs, the other for 200.
Cal
johninCR said:
I dont need it so loud. And it's $800 just for drivers. As I've said before, It's a rough estimation because of the other gear I need to get a hold of, so don't think that this is the limit.
I will probably go for Bill's 2x Tuba24 and 2X DR250a. If I wanted it to be just loud, $800 are plenty enough!
According to Bill, a set like that is satisfying for 300 seats clubs!
I intend to look for used drivers as well, dont forget that. The price of the tweeters can also drop to a certain extent if I buy 16 new ones.
Cal Weldon said:
Thanx Cal! I read with interest that you stuffed your A-7's with Selenium. Which drivers? One thing I found is that I did not have enough HF horn in my system for the SPL's I was trying to achieve from it. I have already fractured a diaphragm once in cold weather and replacements for the 800 series Altec drivers are EXPENSIVE. If I were to start using this package for commercial gain I'd probably swap at least the HF horn drivers. The 15" Seleniums now available probably give more slam and certainly will take more power also that the original vintage 416's I have in these boxes. 416's belong in a hi-fi home system IMO where their delicate quality will be appreciated and their low power handling capability is not a negative factor.
Rcavictim, there's a company in Australia, Cannon Sound, that makes replacement diaphrams for those drivers that exceed the Altec originals. I've put about 40 of them into arenas and concert halls using the old Mantaray horns with 288's and I pay $50 each with shipping. They're on the web, give them a look.
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