Those are 27kg. That's way too heavy. I'm more aiming at something around 15kg. Besides, I kinda wanna build the thing. Makings holes, tuning the thing, all those seems to be part o the fun
Thanks a lot for this, I didn't know. Conforts me in keeping my build. Of course I want something powerful but definition really matters more to me than a few db.
All this doesn't reply about the build though ^^
Right now I still have the time and the money to buy it and build it. I don't want to mess this up because I don't think I'll have the opportunity anytime soon to do this again
Here is the new build :
Mid/bass 10" drivers : Eminence Beta-10A – Thomann France x2
Tweeter compression 1" : Celestion CDX1-1010 – Thomann France
Horn. : Celestion H1-8050 – Thomann France
DSP 2x4: miniDSP Kits: miniDSP 2x4 kit
3way amp : WONDOM AA-AB35281 T-Amp Class D Amplifier Module 3x200W 3 Ohm - Audiophonics
36V battery : https://fra.grandado.com/products/3..._BwE&variant=UHJvZHVjdFZhcmlhbnQ6MjA1MDY4NDg3
Let me know what you think.
Regarding the "tuning" part, that's very easy, because if your heart is set on the Eminence Beta 10 I would go for a closed box. If you want a lower tuned box for those drivers it would have to be much bigger.
I would perhaps consider two Fane 10-300 in a vented enclosure to save a tiny bit of money and to get more cone control down low if you want to go loud.
If you want to reduce cost further and use a closed box I would consider the "the box Speaker 12-280/8-A", it's a 12" so two would be getting close to a single 18" in displacement, two of those drivers is just a tiny bit more than a single Beta 10.
Edit:
The "ultimate simplicity build" would be getting two Fane Sovereign 12-250 TC and mount them on two sides (think front and one side) of a sealed enclosure for a better off axis response, bridge a cheap car amp and run it off a 12v battery, eq with your phone or whatever source you have.
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As great value as they are, bear in mind the 10-300s are 5Kg each.
I would look at the Neo options from Faital / B&C if your budget can stretch to it. Then you can have your cone control without the weight penalty.
I also don't think you should hold fast to the "more drivers is better" argument. Bear in mind two cheaper drivers would be arguably lower quality than a single more expensive driver. You could end up with weaker magnets, less cone control, whist being heavier and more work to build.
I have solved a similar problem in another thread HERE. As a system architecture, the drivers, amplifiers, DSP and power system are well matched together. Maybe an alternative option. I think total weight is around 11Kg using a single 1.9Kg 12" driver.
I would look at the Neo options from Faital / B&C if your budget can stretch to it. Then you can have your cone control without the weight penalty.
I also don't think you should hold fast to the "more drivers is better" argument. Bear in mind two cheaper drivers would be arguably lower quality than a single more expensive driver. You could end up with weaker magnets, less cone control, whist being heavier and more work to build.
I have solved a similar problem in another thread HERE. As a system architecture, the drivers, amplifiers, DSP and power system are well matched together. Maybe an alternative option. I think total weight is around 11Kg using a single 1.9Kg 12" driver.
I'm aiming at something around 70L, tuned around 52Hz for this build (so, vented) WHy would you be more inclined to go for a sealed box ? Is there any reason besides a smaller box is easier to move around?
You think that would be better than a 2xbeta-10a? why?
Because I could also buy 1 of these for the bass only driver and buy a beta-10a for the midbass driver.Or maybe a 12" (B&C 12CL64 ?) for bass and a 10"(either beta-10a or Fane 10-300) for mid/bass?
Would those 2 options be an issue in a shared box ? Should I split the box for each driver?
I've seen this thread. Which is a nice one, but I can build something a little bit bigger. I don't need it to be that small. Besides I don't pre own anything and I don't know if I'm too confortable with those DPS modules. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to buy or have. The minidsp seems easier to use. But again, I'm quite novice in all of this
Maybe I should look into it more because it seems to be a bit cheaper (again.. not sure about that cause I'm not sure how many parts I'm supposed to put together)
I know I'm asking a lot of question... Sorry
Because dual Beta 10 will not perform optimally in a 70liter vented enclosure, not the best parameters for that.
The Fane 10-300 have specs that are a better fit for a vented enclosure of that size, and they're cheaper.
If you have the space and you're willing to lug this thing around maybe you should think about putting it on a bicycle trailer or put some big trolley wheels on it or something
If you want to use different drivers you should have separate chambers for them, if you have double the amount of similar drivers they can share the same volume. There are some good reasons for this, especially if you want to run them hard.
DSP is a good tool to help you learn and get things adjusted, go with whatever solution you feel comfortable using.
The Eminence drivers and the Fane's are a bit heavy, you will save quite a bit of weight choosing something lighter,
The Fane 10-300 have specs that are a better fit for a vented enclosure of that size, and they're cheaper.
If you have the space and you're willing to lug this thing around maybe you should think about putting it on a bicycle trailer or put some big trolley wheels on it or something
If you want to use different drivers you should have separate chambers for them, if you have double the amount of similar drivers they can share the same volume. There are some good reasons for this, especially if you want to run them hard.
DSP is a good tool to help you learn and get things adjusted, go with whatever solution you feel comfortable using.
The Eminence drivers and the Fane's are a bit heavy, you will save quite a bit of weight choosing something lighter,
Questions are good!
I would stick with the minidsp in that case. It's a whole ton easier to program. There is a thomann DSP which is supposed to be as easy to use and similar in many ways, but has balanced if that's important to you the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini – Thomann UK
The maximum voltage of that amplifier is 36v, so you would likely cause damage with your linked 10s battery. Better to go with a Tpa3255 module with up to a 12s battery, or 8s battery if you're intent on that amp.
A TPA combined with a 4r neo 12"/15" or two 8r 10"and 16r 1" could work well.
I would stick with the minidsp in that case. It's a whole ton easier to program. There is a thomann DSP which is supposed to be as easy to use and similar in many ways, but has balanced if that's important to you the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini – Thomann UK
The maximum voltage of that amplifier is 36v, so you would likely cause damage with your linked 10s battery. Better to go with a Tpa3255 module with up to a 12s battery, or 8s battery if you're intent on that amp.
A TPA combined with a 4r neo 12"/15" or two 8r 10"and 16r 1" could work well.
I was thinking about this already, I'm planning on using either a small trolley customized to fit also my controller or maybe add either handles or straps with foam on the back so I can carry it on my back (like some treker backpack) or a combination of those.
I've seen it too, and the balanced out seems to be a strong factor when it comes to noise but I don't see any pot to trim the overall output. This would mean that the speaker is always playing a full volume ? Wouldn't that decrease the battery life?
Is balanced that important, should I expect a lot of noise from unbalanced i/o?
I don't get it, the supply is supposed to be advertised as 36V, are those 10s gonna send 44+v anyway? what about this ?
Maybe I could add a buck converter? Or something else to cap the voltage at 36V?
I can't seems to find any 3way output channels for this module and I've read somewhere that an unfilled output is bad for this type of chip/amplifier. Do you have one in mind or an alternate solution (except going 2way ^^)
Isn't that going to be a bit low for this amplifier ? 8s is something like 29,6 V max if I'm not mistaken. Wouldn't that reduce the overall output?
Do you have specific 8r 10" neo in mind? I ready to put the extrabucks on the budget for decent drivers (as it seems to be the most important part and the hardest to change once everything is built)
For Neo 8r 10" B&C 10CL51 would be a good option
Neo woofers are significantly more $ than ferrite, particularly if you compare to budget ferrite like the box 10-250/8 or 12-280/8. The 12" option may require a different compression driver (or horn) for the slightly lower crossover necessary. You need to prioritize weight vs cost
If you are looking to use all 3 channels of the amp you originally specified you can use MiniDSP in 4-way mode
Another 3-way could be w/ 15 + 6 + 1", the box 15LB075-UW4 & Fane 6-100 or Celestion TF0615 could be good options for that w/ the same HF components already outlined or maybe the Eminence APT-80
Neo woofers are significantly more $ than ferrite, particularly if you compare to budget ferrite like the box 10-250/8 or 12-280/8. The 12" option may require a different compression driver (or horn) for the slightly lower crossover necessary. You need to prioritize weight vs cost
If you are looking to use all 3 channels of the amp you originally specified you can use MiniDSP in 4-way mode
Another 3-way could be w/ 15 + 6 + 1", the box 15LB075-UW4 & Fane 6-100 or Celestion TF0615 could be good options for that w/ the same HF components already outlined or maybe the Eminence APT-80
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Unless you are using long runs of cable (3m+) to the speaker, then balanced is likely not worth the platform change. You'd need to fit a manual potentiometer to the inputs of the DSP.
MiniDSP is still the right choice IMO, in a case even better.
With the batteries, there's a peak voltage, nominal ("midpoint") voltage and a low cutouff voltage. Common values for these are: 4.3v per cell, nominal 3.6v per cell and cutoff 2.8v per cell.
Therefore a 10S battery (with 10 cells in series) will start at 43v, half way through will be 36v and it'll stop delivering at 28V.
8S battery will peak at 34.4V, nominal 28.8V, cutoff 22.4V. At 22.4V you will deliver half the power (3dB) as 34.4v:
Source: TPA3255 datasheet. Approximately the same for your amplifier.
You can also choose to lower the charge / peak voltage at battery, but this gets more complex (as you won't be able to use off the shelf chargers) and you'll loose battery capacity. However, the lifespan of you battery will increase.
You have two ways of 'combatting' the voltage drop over time. You can start with a bigger battery and accept it'll get marginally quieter (3dB) over time. This is simple and efficient. Or, you use a boost converter to keep the voltage at a prescribed level. This is more complex and less efficient, but you keep your absolute maximum output at all battery levels.
I chose the first approach, with a 13S pack on TPA3255 charging to 54V, and cutting off at 36v. I would recommend using a 12S however, as I am operating in a slightly uncomfortable part of the datasheet and need extra cooling.
MiniDSP is still the right choice IMO, in a case even better.
With the batteries, there's a peak voltage, nominal ("midpoint") voltage and a low cutouff voltage. Common values for these are: 4.3v per cell, nominal 3.6v per cell and cutoff 2.8v per cell.
Therefore a 10S battery (with 10 cells in series) will start at 43v, half way through will be 36v and it'll stop delivering at 28V.
8S battery will peak at 34.4V, nominal 28.8V, cutoff 22.4V. At 22.4V you will deliver half the power (3dB) as 34.4v:
Source: TPA3255 datasheet. Approximately the same for your amplifier.
You can also choose to lower the charge / peak voltage at battery, but this gets more complex (as you won't be able to use off the shelf chargers) and you'll loose battery capacity. However, the lifespan of you battery will increase.
You have two ways of 'combatting' the voltage drop over time. You can start with a bigger battery and accept it'll get marginally quieter (3dB) over time. This is simple and efficient. Or, you use a boost converter to keep the voltage at a prescribed level. This is more complex and less efficient, but you keep your absolute maximum output at all battery levels.
I chose the first approach, with a 13S pack on TPA3255 charging to 54V, and cutting off at 36v. I would recommend using a 12S however, as I am operating in a slightly uncomfortable part of the datasheet and need extra cooling.
I've looked into it and this seems like a good option indeed. A store is selling those for 84€ which seems like a decent price. But 3 things are bothering me :
1) RMS is rated for 150W and it's 8r so I'd like to know how much W it can take for a 200W@3r
2)If I use a 300w@3r could it be an issue for the driver?
3) Would my Celestion compression driver/horn will be ok to use with this driver?
So, basically, it's likely to damage the amp when it's fully charged. But when it goes lower than 90% it's ok?
I can't find any TPA3255 3way and it seems to me like a double TPA3255 module would be a pain in the *** to wire and would cost way more than a single 3way.
Other options from Wondom/sure are these :
WONDOM | STORE that is 24V-40V, but PSU frequently bought with is 48V
or
WONDOM | STORE that is 24V-46V, PSU 48V advertised
But the latest is making me scared for my drivers. how much is this 400w(@3r) for a driver @8r? Because if it exceeds 150w RMS it will damage my driver right?
Or should I trim it down in the DSP before sending it to the amp to prevent any damage?
How will I know how much Db I should trim it down before it blows my driver?
Again, a lot of question... But I feel I'm getting closer
Thanks a lot for your helpTo answer your questions:
1.
Would be good to read up / YouTube how speaker impedances work with amplifiers. "200W@3R" would translate to around 50-100W at 8R (with a 10S battery, this translates to 28v-43V on the second graph I showed above, this is a simpler method than using data sheets), so really not that much power. You may be better using 4R drivers, as this means you can supply a 2x more power / 3dB more if you wanted to.
2.
Do not worry about RMS power so much. It is good practice to get amplifiers to run at 2x-4x power driver power to avoid running into clipping. You're a long way off this!
3.
Yes, or if you can find a 16 ohm version that would maybe be slightly better (lower noise)
If you charge the 10S battery to only 36V (36v/10s = 3.6v per cell) then it will be 50% charged.
Not sure why they recommend the 48v for those. This sheet here shows the models and their max supplies https://store.sure-electronics.com/...t AA-AB35191 HighPowerMultiSeries Manual.pdf
This seems to be the one rated up to 50V. You can use upto an 11S battery with this.
WONDOM | STORE
Regarding limiters. It will be both hard to damage and very obvious if the driver is unhappy - most likely from over excursion (set your correct high pass filters in DSP).
1.
Would be good to read up / YouTube how speaker impedances work with amplifiers. "200W@3R" would translate to around 50-100W at 8R (with a 10S battery, this translates to 28v-43V on the second graph I showed above, this is a simpler method than using data sheets), so really not that much power. You may be better using 4R drivers, as this means you can supply a 2x more power / 3dB more if you wanted to.
2.
Do not worry about RMS power so much. It is good practice to get amplifiers to run at 2x-4x power driver power to avoid running into clipping. You're a long way off this!
3.
Yes, or if you can find a 16 ohm version that would maybe be slightly better (lower noise)
If you charge the 10S battery to only 36V (36v/10s = 3.6v per cell) then it will be 50% charged.
Not sure why they recommend the 48v for those. This sheet here shows the models and their max supplies https://store.sure-electronics.com/...t AA-AB35191 HighPowerMultiSeries Manual.pdf
This seems to be the one rated up to 50V. You can use upto an 11S battery with this.
WONDOM | STORE
Regarding limiters. It will be both hard to damage and very obvious if the driver is unhappy - most likely from over excursion (set your correct high pass filters in DSP).
Had a thought, a cheaper and longer battery version would be to use a TPA3255, with tweeter on one side and two 8R 10CL51(4R total load) on the other side.
Battery life will at least double, it'll be cheaper and cooler than the AA-AB35511- and you'll only loose out on 3dB volume:What Does a Decibel 'Sound' Like? - Cass Allen Associates Ltd - Independent Acoustic Consultants
Battery life will at least double, it'll be cheaper and cooler than the AA-AB35511- and you'll only loose out on 3dB volume:What Does a Decibel 'Sound' Like? - Cass Allen Associates Ltd - Independent Acoustic Consultants
All I need is between 6h and 10h battery life. But battery life will most likely be defined by the total Ah of my battery right? Let's say I buy some 20Ah battery I will go over 6h right? Whether I go for the TPA or the T.Amp ?
If I buy something like this Amplifier Board - AIYIMA B2D2205 - TPA3255 | 4 Channel 315W Power Ampl and I wire output 1-2 to the 10CL51 and output 3 to the tweeter, is this what you mean by one side and the other? Or do you mean 2xTPA3255 in BTL configuration (on my exemple, this is an SE configuration, right?) and one side means 1 TPA3255 in BTL fully used by 2 8r drivers and the other side means 1TPA3255 for 1 tweeter (which seems a bit too much for just a tweeter XD) ?
I think you mean a 4 channel TPA 3255 with SE config running all 3 drivers (filling 3 outputs and leaving one unused)
This would be so much simpler if I could find a 3 i/o TPA3255
On the board I've linked I only see one big radiator. But the lack of fan is bothering me. It feels like it would be more confortable to have fans for the amp and not just a radiator but maybe that's just the PC builder in me focusing on the wrong things
Another issue I have, the DSP needs to be powered. Is there a way for me to wire both the DSP and the amp to the same 12s battery ? (I suppose I would need to ground the whole system to something...) I remember seeing on one amplifier board something like "12V output for DSP configuration"... was I dreaming? Because I can't find it anymore :/
Do I need to buy one of those in a metallic box so I can use the box itself to ground everything?
Or should I use another battery for the DSP ?
Also, should I bother to run sims even though I go for a DSP and I can tune everything once it's built?
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All I need is between 6h and 10h battery life. But battery life will most likely be defined by the total Ah of my battery right? Let's say I buy some 20Ah battery I will go over 6h right? Whether I go for the TPA or the T.Amp ?
Yes, more battery more playtime. I am of course focusing on efficiency, so making the use of the battery available. Brute capacity is also a valid tactic. It's also worth bearing in mind that most cheap batteries (such as the one you linked) inflate their specifications. The one you linked has in fact 12Ah (3,000mAh x 4P) NOT the 32Ah they claim. (Assuming they use standard 18650s at 3,000Mah each)
If I buy something like this Amplifier Board - AIYIMA B2D2205 - TPA3255 | 4 Channel 315W Power Ampl and I wire output 1-2 to the 10CL51 and output 3 to the tweeter, is this what you mean by one side and the other? Or do you mean 2xTPA3255 in BTL configuration (on my exemple, this is an SE configuration, right?) and one side means 1 TPA3255 in BTL fully used by 2 8r drivers and the other side means 1TPA3255 for 1 tweeter (which seems a bit too much for just a tweeter XD) ?
I think I have explained poorly here. What I mean is:
One TPA3255 board with two channels (A, B)
Channel A connects to TWO 8R 10CL51 drivers in parallel. This presents an effective 4R load to the channel.
Channel B connects to ONE 8R tweeter.
I think you mean a 4 channel TPA 3255 with SE config running all 3 drivers (filling 3 outputs and leaving one unused)
This would be so much simpler if I could find a 3 i/o TPA3255
On the board I've linked I only see one big radiator. But the lack of fan is bothering me. It feels like it would be more confortable to have fans for the amp and not just a radiator but maybe that's just the PC builder in me focusing on the wrong things
Valid point. Bear in mind using the setup above, only one channel is doing any real work (A), and the other channel is barely idling (B). Therefore the heat generated will be half of what the heatsink "should" be rated for. If you want you can put a 40mm fan over it, but no need with a tweeter on one channel and operating at "medium" voltages.
Another issue I have, the DSP needs to be powered. Is there a way for me to wire both the DSP and the amp to the same 12s battery ? (I suppose I would need to ground the whole system to something...) I remember seeing on one amplifier board something like "12V output for DSP configuration"... was I dreaming? Because I can't find it anymore :/
That would be the 3E TPA3255. You can use a "12V DC DC buck converter" off eBay to generate the required voltage.
Do I need to buy one of those in a metallic box so I can use the box itself to ground everything?
Or should I use another battery for the DSP ?
No need for a box. You can use a different battery for the DSP, or you can use the 12V buck converter
Also, should I bother to run sims even though I go for a DSP and I can tune everything once it's built?
Yes, it is essential you simulate properly!
Ok but with this kind of wiring I wouldn't be able to us the DPS the way I meant to : lowest 10" for bass (~50hz -> ~150hz, mid 10" for medium and lows (50hz - 3khz) and tweeter for mid/high. That's why I'm looking for a 3way amplifier, so I can isolate every channels and eq them properly before amplifying them.