I am looking to buy a "slim" floorstander kit and i have been really interested in troel gravesen designs and was pretty shure that the Nomex 164mkii was the speaker i wanted untill he recently released the "Discovery MTM" at a little bit higher price. Now i am having issues choosing, i feel like the things that differentiate them the most are the type (TMM or MTM) because they have simular quality drivers. I will use them in a small bedroom around 10m2 so the vertical possition will vary around 1m (depending if i am laying down or sitting up). I use my speakers LOUD from time to time when watching movies 105-110db peaks.
I am still leaning towards the NOMEX 164 MKII because i like the look of a leaning speaker but if anyone have any suggestions i would be glad to have someone elses opinion on this and if they think another kit might be suitible i am open for suggestions.
Nomex: NOMEX-mkII
Discovery MTM: Discovery-MTM
I am still leaning towards the NOMEX 164 MKII because i like the look of a leaning speaker but if anyone have any suggestions i would be glad to have someone elses opinion on this and if they think another kit might be suitible i am open for suggestions.
Nomex: NOMEX-mkII
Discovery MTM: Discovery-MTM
Why would you limit yourself to the designs of Gravesen? 2,5-way system designs and MTM designs are fairly common in our DIY landscape. Renowned designs also. With the crossover components published or available for a fair price. It's not that Gravesen's designs are bad, but being forced to buy quite expensive crossover components isn't my cup of tea.
markbakk i am open to suggestions i have looked at sb acustic rinjani (love the looks and drivers seem to be great, also a possibility) and also a few designs from zaph audio, the reason troels designs appeal to me is because you get everthing necessary with the kits and he is a reputable designers and i am confident that the results will be good and i will avoid additional expenses that comes with ordering from over seas (madisound, gr reaserch, etc).
I see no reason why the Nomex-kit wouldn't fit you. You like it the best. We all here likely don't have a clue about which one is better and certainly couldn't judge your taste. Follow your heart.
The Solstice design by Jeff Bagby always gets good comments and looks like it is in the same price bracket as the Nomex, full kit available from Parts Express but full plans are open to use.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/300-708 Solstice Kit Assembly Guide.pdf
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/300-708 Solstice Kit Assembly Guide.pdf
I am really liking that Discovery MTM. The Discovery 861 also looks good as well as the Ekta Mk 2 or SBA 16 MTM.
The woodworking is simple as a first project and the outlay not too much and everything is in the kit. My room is 4 by 5 meters. So now to decide which is the best for me as well as the aesthetics. Right now I favour the Discovery MTM. Shipping from the US shops is way too much for other kits for me.
The woodworking is simple as a first project and the outlay not too much and everything is in the kit. My room is 4 by 5 meters. So now to decide which is the best for me as well as the aesthetics. Right now I favour the Discovery MTM. Shipping from the US shops is way too much for other kits for me.
Curt's speakers are excellent, especially in value for money. Only issue with the Uluwatu would be flush mounting the odd-shaped SB13PFC woofer, but a traditional round frame is now available with what seem to be identical specs. I gave up trying to flush mount the SB16PFC (same frame shape) and just surface mounted, still seemed to sound fine.
Nothing against the Elsinores, of course, they get great reviews.
Geoff
Thanks everyone, i appreciate the feedback. I have looked in to all the designs mentioned and done some more reaserch myself and come to the conclusoion that the rinjani was the one that i would choose but a little modified. the thing that kept med from going with that kit immediately was the 3000hz x over point in combination with the 15cm+ center to center from the tweeter and the mid. But i later found out that the rinjani be had a 2300hz xover and i could use the TW29RN tweeter that are interchangeble with the berylium one insted (maybe i would have to change a resistor value since its 1db more sensitiv)
I liked all speakers you mentioned and i am sure that all would sound great but what my decision came down to was the looks, after all you will see the speaker more often than you will hear them.
I liked all speakers you mentioned and i am sure that all would sound great but what my decision came down to was the looks, after all you will see the speaker more often than you will hear them.
I'm not sure anyone responding to this thread really read this statement. 😱
1m vertical differences AND in a bedroom condition - so likely closer to the loudspeakers (..perhaps much closer on occasion).
In combination you'll almost certainly suffer "suck-out" regularly with most designs. A coaxial OR a fullrange driver (+ midbass for lower freq.s) driven to at least 400 Hz is about the only design that could be recommended to avoid this.
Then there is the desire for such loud spl's - hopefully the speakers will be high-passed at least as high as 80 Hz for such loud playback. (..with several distributed subwoofers for lower freq.s)
"I will use them in a small bedroom around 10m2 so the vertical position will vary around 1m (depending if i am laying down or sitting up)"
A slanted baffle will not produce the best sound at both heights. The slant is used to time align the tweeter and midrange sound waves at one listening height and one distance.
A sealed 6" midrange will produce superior transient response compared to a ported 6", and superior polar directivity control compared to a MTM. If you want to purchase a Troels kit, the "861" TMW cabinet has a stepped baffle to time align the T-M, and a sealed 6" midrange, and a ported 8" woofer for deep bass. Review Troels "861" goals on why he uses a midrange crossover circuit with a VERY wide frequency range to understand if it matches your goals.
Troels explains:
" Both the 22W and 18W drivers feature 1st order roll-off profiles, where the tweeter has a standard LR2 filter. With inverted tweeter polarity this ensures proper summation from the stepped baffle alignment. Actually the 22W is smooth all the way to 9 kHz before giving up. Quite remarkable. The 18W can do the same, but for the sake of proper summation with the tweeter starts rolling off gradually 2nd to 4th order around 7 kHz."
===========
I would favor a 3-way T-M-W with "861" size drivers, but would use the SB_Acoustics black aluminum cone drivers with more common crossover circuits. I could not find a complete kit with these drivers, but there are several 2-way TM kits you could extend to a T-M-W 3-way.
Your modest area room will produce bass gain and minimize baffle step bass-boost requirements... (so a single 8in SB23NBACS45-4 woofer can match a modestly attenuated 6in SB17NBAC35-4 and SB26ADC-C000-4). A larger room would build a TM-WW design(B&W, Sony, Avalon, Magio), or a TMW with a 10" or 12" woofer.
1in SB26ADC-C000-4
6in SB17NBAC35-4
8in SB23NBACS45-4
4-ohm
1.0 cf3 vented 2" x 6" straight port: Fb 33 Hz, F3 45 Hz.
2.0 cf3 vented 3" x 11" straight port: Fb 26 Hz, F3 37 Hz. (maximum bass)
8in SB23NBACS45-8
8-ohm
Vented box of 1.0 cubic foot with 2" diameter vent by 7" long for f3 of 38Hz
Vented box of 1.2 cubic foot with 2" diameter vent by 7" long for f3 of 35Hz
Vented box of 1.4 cubic foot with 2" diameter vent by 7" long for f3 of 33Hz
A slanted baffle will not produce the best sound at both heights. The slant is used to time align the tweeter and midrange sound waves at one listening height and one distance.
A sealed 6" midrange will produce superior transient response compared to a ported 6", and superior polar directivity control compared to a MTM. If you want to purchase a Troels kit, the "861" TMW cabinet has a stepped baffle to time align the T-M, and a sealed 6" midrange, and a ported 8" woofer for deep bass. Review Troels "861" goals on why he uses a midrange crossover circuit with a VERY wide frequency range to understand if it matches your goals.
Troels explains:
" Both the 22W and 18W drivers feature 1st order roll-off profiles, where the tweeter has a standard LR2 filter. With inverted tweeter polarity this ensures proper summation from the stepped baffle alignment. Actually the 22W is smooth all the way to 9 kHz before giving up. Quite remarkable. The 18W can do the same, but for the sake of proper summation with the tweeter starts rolling off gradually 2nd to 4th order around 7 kHz."
===========
I would favor a 3-way T-M-W with "861" size drivers, but would use the SB_Acoustics black aluminum cone drivers with more common crossover circuits. I could not find a complete kit with these drivers, but there are several 2-way TM kits you could extend to a T-M-W 3-way.
Your modest area room will produce bass gain and minimize baffle step bass-boost requirements... (so a single 8in SB23NBACS45-4 woofer can match a modestly attenuated 6in SB17NBAC35-4 and SB26ADC-C000-4). A larger room would build a TM-WW design(B&W, Sony, Avalon, Magio), or a TMW with a 10" or 12" woofer.
1in SB26ADC-C000-4
6in SB17NBAC35-4
8in SB23NBACS45-4
4-ohm
1.0 cf3 vented 2" x 6" straight port: Fb 33 Hz, F3 45 Hz.
2.0 cf3 vented 3" x 11" straight port: Fb 26 Hz, F3 37 Hz. (maximum bass)
8in SB23NBACS45-8
8-ohm
Vented box of 1.0 cubic foot with 2" diameter vent by 7" long for f3 of 38Hz
Vented box of 1.2 cubic foot with 2" diameter vent by 7" long for f3 of 35Hz
Vented box of 1.4 cubic foot with 2" diameter vent by 7" long for f3 of 33Hz
ScottG, all of that are valid points and good advise. i am glad someone actuallly talked about that issue but i realized i cant achive perfection and the 1m was a bit exaggerated and the ear level will not vary more than 60cm and the tweeter will be 2.5m away wich results in ear level will vary from +5 to -10 degres from the tweeter wich i consider accepteble. and as to peak spl i used WinISD and the speakers will be within x max 42hz and up whitout room gain and 32hz and up with room gain, and i am not worried about power handeling since its only peaks that will reach those spls. and i have a capable subwoofer that can cover the bass belove that. and if the "suck out" will become to great i will probably buy another amp and design a active high order x over so the dip will become narrow. The reason i will avoid coaxial designs for now is that i couldnt find a kit i liked and i lack the equipment to measure electical data to use in Xsim for now. When get more space, knowlage and time i might reuse the rinjani drivers and design a focal utopia stella inspired speaker 😉
Get SB Rinjani kit over Baltic sea 🙂
Standard SB Rinjani with white high gloss cabinets kit - to Sweden you'll get it with free shipping (UPS Standard) in couple of days.
Original Rinjani sound is quite good, it sounds more musical compared to speakers like Dali Epicon. Original Rinjani plays better if you tilt a few degrees back - just put 1cm feets on the front of it. It was adjusted toaxis between tweeter and a upper midwoofer, and it is a bit low when you sit in fron of it.
You may play with crossover and cross it around 2kHz.
TW29R is good enough, this version ARA is modified one using TW29R tweeter:
SB Acoustics ARA Silk dome Special Edition - FineTuning by StereoArt, Satin White
Bi-Amping.... room equalization... sealed woofers with room equalization...
Have you given some consideration to building a 2-box speaker for greater flexibility and performance? A top tweeter + midrange cabinet with a thick baffle with deep enough edge bevels or quarter rounds to dramatically reduce edge distortion. A bottom woofer cabinet optimized for volume with modest 0.5" edge bevels/rounds. There are several proven T-M designs you can build. Bi-Amping would simplify adding sealed or ported woofers.
You could start with a proven design T-M top using the Satori MW16P-4 mid_woofer, or the lower cost SB_Acoustics black aluminum cone drivers. You can build a sealed box design for the best transients, or a larger volume ported box design where the port can always be sealed.
SB26ADC-4 $50 Aluminum Dome Tweeter
SB17BAC35-4 $70 __6.2" aluminum cone midbass
SB23BAC45-8 $109 __8" aluminum cone woofer
Attachments
but achtung with the Vas datas of SB Acoustic. Maybe the 8" SB23NBAC can be used for the best in sealed cabinet and needed less volume box than the datasheet suggest - see audioexcite about sb23nrx T&S measurements for instance.
LineSource is giving some good advice in posts #12 and #16.
A two-box design is a very practical concept. In addition to the advantages stated in post #16, there is another: The most troublesome structural vibrations in the cabinet tend to be from 200 Hz to 600 Hz. The larger the cabinet, the harder it is to manage those vibrations. Bass cabinets need to be large. Midrange cabinets do not.
If the driver which operates from 200 - 600 Hz (more or less) is mounted in a small cabinet, it is not difficult to make the overall acoustic signature of the cabinet inaudible. The small midrange cabinet can be made very stiff. The woofer cabinet does not need to be so massively constructed when it only operates at low frequencies.
A typical TMW design has all drivers sharing a common baffle, which means that midrange vibrations are coupled to the entire cabinet. It is therefore necessary to make the entire cabinet either very stiff, or very well damped (a CLD approach).
I like the idea of pairing a good 2-way kit with a set of stereo subwoofers. With stereo subs, you can cross a little higher... 120 Hz to as high as 200 Hz, and still have the cabinets physically separated. If the TM cabinet is sitting on top of the woofer cabinet, then of course the crossover from woofer to mid can be as high as needed.
j.
A two-box design is a very practical concept. In addition to the advantages stated in post #16, there is another: The most troublesome structural vibrations in the cabinet tend to be from 200 Hz to 600 Hz. The larger the cabinet, the harder it is to manage those vibrations. Bass cabinets need to be large. Midrange cabinets do not.
If the driver which operates from 200 - 600 Hz (more or less) is mounted in a small cabinet, it is not difficult to make the overall acoustic signature of the cabinet inaudible. The small midrange cabinet can be made very stiff. The woofer cabinet does not need to be so massively constructed when it only operates at low frequencies.
A typical TMW design has all drivers sharing a common baffle, which means that midrange vibrations are coupled to the entire cabinet. It is therefore necessary to make the entire cabinet either very stiff, or very well damped (a CLD approach).
I like the idea of pairing a good 2-way kit with a set of stereo subwoofers. With stereo subs, you can cross a little higher... 120 Hz to as high as 200 Hz, and still have the cabinets physically separated. If the TM cabinet is sitting on top of the woofer cabinet, then of course the crossover from woofer to mid can be as high as needed.
j.
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I have quite capable small bookshelf speakers now (naim n sats) and the issue i feel i have with them are limited output and mid bass weight are lacking. When playing at loud volyme (with a 120hz 24db/octave high pass) towards 100db at 2m away the speakers sound compressed and i cant seperate instruments, the soundstage falls apart and i fear blowing the tweeter. The n sats use a modified SEAS Prestige CA15RLY as mid/ bass and a vifa xt19 tweeter crossed as 3000hz. Would you think those issues would remain if i would take your advice an building a woofer box/stand and crossing them at a higher frequency closer to 300hz. i am open to ideas including working with what i got.
I would expect many 2 way speakers to sound compressed at 100 dB at 2 M, and to loose some detail and clarity. The lack of mid bass is probably due to how the speaker was voiced (i.e. how much baffle step compensation was designed-in), but it could also be due to phase mis-match between the satellites and the sub. The loss of clarity and the compression probably mean you are just asking too much from those Naim satellites.
Short answer: It is absolutely possible to build a small 2-way satellite that will meet your needs. You would not have to cross as high as 300 Hz.
For a demanding application like yours, you will need fairly high performance drivers. The CA15RLY is a good driver, but it and the Vifa tweeter do not meet your needs. A 6 inch driver has about 50% more surface area than a 5 inch driver, and more Sd means more SPL (all else being equal)... So give strong consideration to a 6 inch.
The Satori MW16P is a very well thought of, many excellent designs use it.
The SB17CAC35 is an excellent driver, and the cost is moderate. I built an active 3-way system with separate woofer cabinets and MT cabinets using the SB17CAC35 and the SB26CDC tweeter
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
The clarity and detail is very good.
ScanSpeak Illuminator 18WU/8741T or 4741T have an excellent reputation, but they are pricey. Many consider it the best paper cone driver.
A new driver is the Satori MW16TX. This driver uses a carbon/epoxy cone. I really like this driver and have found it to be very neutral, detailed, natural sounding, and very dynamic. I upgraded my 3-way active system using this driver.
New active Satori Textreme
I have a large room, and at my 2.5 meter listening distance, I can not safely explore the SPL limits of this system...
j.
I have a minidsp 2x4hd and a crown xls 1002 amp so i could build a active 2 way x over if i buy another xls1002 amp for 280euro, but then the question would be what drivers and what configuration? a mtm is possible an of course a ordinary 2way and prehaps a concept simular to troels 2,5 way discovery 861 and sba 761 with a somewhat bass capable mid in a seald box and a larger bass driver that i can cross over with a first order filter quite low with a capacitor to get rid of beaming and cone breakup then eq the frequency response (maybe a bad idea? i dont know) so both play the bass but only one plays mids. As usual any suggestions are usefull in what drivers to use and what configuration to use. Maybe a mw19p with a discovery D2608/913000 tweeter. Prehaps even a sidemounted peerless xls P830452 that loves super small seald boxes