Do you have a subwoofer now? if so, can you describe it?
The conventional way (but not the best way) to add a sub to a pair of full range speakers is to run the main speakers full range, and adjust the sub crossover so it integrates with the natural roll off of the main speakers. If the main speakers are sealed box, the natural roll off will be 12 dB/octave. If the main speakers are vented, the roll off could be 12, 18, or 24 dB/octave... If it seems difficult to get a good integrated sound with vented box main speakers, it is often better to plug the vent with foam (or a towel), which forces the roll off to be 12 dB/octave and also pushes the roll off to a higher frequency.
A better way is to actively filter the main speaker channel with a high pass filter. The sub low pass and the main high pass are integrated together, and take into account the roll off of the mains. Getting the low frequencies out of the signal to the mains will go a long way in reducing congestion and compression in the upper bass and midrange.
I don't know how much of this you tried with your Naim n-sats.
If you are looking for a big step up in sound quality, I still favor the concept that LineSource laid out in post #16: Build a pair of subs suitable for your room. Given your room size, 10 inch woofers would probably work well, but perhaps an athletic 8 inch would work just fine. Build a high quality 2-way kit. I am not the right person to advise you which kits are better, but select one with high performance drivers.
Use your MiniDSP to actively high pass the signal to your main speakers, and low pass the signal to your stereo subs. You will need to apply selective EQ and delay to get everything integrated nicely. The ability to do good near field measurements and spatially averaged room measurements will help you... Crossing from sub to mains at 150 Hz to 200 Hz can really open up the capability of a good bookshelf speaker.
Let us know what you decide to do... 🙂 ........... jim
The conventional way (but not the best way) to add a sub to a pair of full range speakers is to run the main speakers full range, and adjust the sub crossover so it integrates with the natural roll off of the main speakers. If the main speakers are sealed box, the natural roll off will be 12 dB/octave. If the main speakers are vented, the roll off could be 12, 18, or 24 dB/octave... If it seems difficult to get a good integrated sound with vented box main speakers, it is often better to plug the vent with foam (or a towel), which forces the roll off to be 12 dB/octave and also pushes the roll off to a higher frequency.
A better way is to actively filter the main speaker channel with a high pass filter. The sub low pass and the main high pass are integrated together, and take into account the roll off of the mains. Getting the low frequencies out of the signal to the mains will go a long way in reducing congestion and compression in the upper bass and midrange.
I don't know how much of this you tried with your Naim n-sats.
If you are looking for a big step up in sound quality, I still favor the concept that LineSource laid out in post #16: Build a pair of subs suitable for your room. Given your room size, 10 inch woofers would probably work well, but perhaps an athletic 8 inch would work just fine. Build a high quality 2-way kit. I am not the right person to advise you which kits are better, but select one with high performance drivers.
Use your MiniDSP to actively high pass the signal to your main speakers, and low pass the signal to your stereo subs. You will need to apply selective EQ and delay to get everything integrated nicely. The ability to do good near field measurements and spatially averaged room measurements will help you... Crossing from sub to mains at 150 Hz to 200 Hz can really open up the capability of a good bookshelf speaker.
Let us know what you decide to do... 🙂 ........... jim
At the moment i have a single velodyne spl 1200r that is a 12 inch sealed 1000w sub with excursion and distortion limitors so i cant overdrive the sub in case of some big spl peaks but it hits 113db at 30hz in room. Its possitioned in the center of left and right speaker.
I have tried to integrate the sub to my speakers most ways i can think of with the minidsp and managed to do so well in my opinion. but i have noticed that even though the sub can play up to around 130hz it dosnt sound nearly as ”dry” and tight as the n sats so i would prefer to use it below 50-60hz (preferebly Lower) where it sounds firm and clean. A big problem are between 130 and 220hz where the subs dont reach and the n sats dont have enough spl capabilitys to where i feel comfortable EQing the null out.
Hence if i where to build a speaker i would like it to have decent bass output by itself. i have scraped the idea of a 2 way active x over in combination with a passive low order lowpass to i sidefireing woofer because of major phase issues. The only way i can see a hybrid 2,5 way work would be of i had the bass drivers physically time aligned but it would still possibly cause issues.
And considering a bookshelf 2 way kit, the ”maybe” issues i see with that are firstly their low sensetivity, for example the sb acoustics ara that have ~84 db/w/m and i dont see how a small 2 Way speaker can handle 350w to achive the ~110db peaks, even if it is high passed to stay within x max. The second issue is that i dont know how important the baffle Edge difraction differens by incresing the baffle height below the woofer.
Maybe someone can give me an better understanding of the ”expanding a bookshelf speaker” idea before i write it of completely?🙂
I have tried to integrate the sub to my speakers most ways i can think of with the minidsp and managed to do so well in my opinion. but i have noticed that even though the sub can play up to around 130hz it dosnt sound nearly as ”dry” and tight as the n sats so i would prefer to use it below 50-60hz (preferebly Lower) where it sounds firm and clean. A big problem are between 130 and 220hz where the subs dont reach and the n sats dont have enough spl capabilitys to where i feel comfortable EQing the null out.
Hence if i where to build a speaker i would like it to have decent bass output by itself. i have scraped the idea of a 2 way active x over in combination with a passive low order lowpass to i sidefireing woofer because of major phase issues. The only way i can see a hybrid 2,5 way work would be of i had the bass drivers physically time aligned but it would still possibly cause issues.
And considering a bookshelf 2 way kit, the ”maybe” issues i see with that are firstly their low sensetivity, for example the sb acoustics ara that have ~84 db/w/m and i dont see how a small 2 Way speaker can handle 350w to achive the ~110db peaks, even if it is high passed to stay within x max. The second issue is that i dont know how important the baffle Edge difraction differens by incresing the baffle height below the woofer.
Maybe someone can give me an better understanding of the ”expanding a bookshelf speaker” idea before i write it of completely?🙂
How much of your existing equipment do you want to keep? How much money are you willing to spend?
Your first thought of looking at TMM 2.5 way systems is still a pretty good idea. If you are satisfied with the velodyne sub, there is no reason to replace it.
Just to throw out an idea that is "outside the box": If you want to keep your velodyne sub and your Naim satellites, you need something which can really operate well from 60 Hz up to about 400 Hz. You could get a pair of good 10" woofers, put them in a cabinet that would also be the speaker stand for the Naim satellites. Set the velodyne sub crossover at 60 - 80 Hz. Use the miniDSP to drive the 10" woofers (with rolloff at 60 - 80 Hz and at 300 - 400 Hz), and the second channel of the miniDSP to drive the Naims (with rolloff at 300 - 400 Hz.
The miniDSP 2x4HD can be used as a 3 way active DSP filter. If you bought a second 2x4HD you could build an active 3 way system. This opens up a lot of options, but now the argument to keep the velodyne and the Naims starts to get weak...
j.
Your first thought of looking at TMM 2.5 way systems is still a pretty good idea. If you are satisfied with the velodyne sub, there is no reason to replace it.
Just to throw out an idea that is "outside the box": If you want to keep your velodyne sub and your Naim satellites, you need something which can really operate well from 60 Hz up to about 400 Hz. You could get a pair of good 10" woofers, put them in a cabinet that would also be the speaker stand for the Naim satellites. Set the velodyne sub crossover at 60 - 80 Hz. Use the miniDSP to drive the 10" woofers (with rolloff at 60 - 80 Hz and at 300 - 400 Hz), and the second channel of the miniDSP to drive the Naims (with rolloff at 300 - 400 Hz.
The miniDSP 2x4HD can be used as a 3 way active DSP filter. If you bought a second 2x4HD you could build an active 3 way system. This opens up a lot of options, but now the argument to keep the velodyne and the Naims starts to get weak...
j.
The Velodyne is changing the game. Can save you a lot of money with simplier 2 ways or 2.5 ways or at least slim 3 ways as you asked.
I was on the way to link that Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Tarkus updates not being sure it hits your required high spl, but I believe with the Velodyne for the first two octaves, you can do something like HifiJim cabinet with SB acoustic drivers and or the tweeter you already have with filter adaptation. Heissman has a strong renown as well and I agree with Marbak it can save you many bucks on the passive parts which are the costy side of TG design.
I was on the way to link that Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Tarkus updates not being sure it hits your required high spl, but I believe with the Velodyne for the first two octaves, you can do something like HifiJim cabinet with SB acoustic drivers and or the tweeter you already have with filter adaptation. Heissman has a strong renown as well and I agree with Marbak it can save you many bucks on the passive parts which are the costy side of TG design.
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I want to spend at most 1000 euro but if i find something that i really likes then i could raise the limit. I do not intend to keep the n sats (at least for this system) but all else i want to keep.
I can buy a behringer a800 for 200euro if i want to build a active 2way. a active 3way (not including the subwoofer) i dont think would be suitable because half the budget would go to amps and dsp. So a active 2 way eighter MTM OR MT could be a good option because of the possibility for a high order (up to 42db/octave) linear phase x over so the tweeter could be used down to maybe 1.6k hz so the vertical of axis response would be good.
To build a active MTM speaker using the same drivers as the rinjani it would be similar in price and prehaps give a better resultat but are more complicated i dont know what would be better for me. maybe a active TM tower using some better drivers could be an option?
I am also a little bit worried if i were to use a amp that powerful for a tweeter whitout a x over in case some Internal noise like connecting rca cables. Maybe if i used the crown xls with the built in filter at like 1200hz as a backup for the tweeter? or maybe a capacitor on it? if it even are necesary?
I can buy a behringer a800 for 200euro if i want to build a active 2way. a active 3way (not including the subwoofer) i dont think would be suitable because half the budget would go to amps and dsp. So a active 2 way eighter MTM OR MT could be a good option because of the possibility for a high order (up to 42db/octave) linear phase x over so the tweeter could be used down to maybe 1.6k hz so the vertical of axis response would be good.
To build a active MTM speaker using the same drivers as the rinjani it would be similar in price and prehaps give a better resultat but are more complicated i dont know what would be better for me. maybe a active TM tower using some better drivers could be an option?
I am also a little bit worried if i were to use a amp that powerful for a tweeter whitout a x over in case some Internal noise like connecting rca cables. Maybe if i used the crown xls with the built in filter at like 1200hz as a backup for the tweeter? or maybe a capacitor on it? if it even are necesary?
Don't bother with linear phase or higher order filters than 24dB LR. I haven't found a reason to do so - yet. There are so many other things to do right first, before worrying too much about phase.
Here is a set of floor standing speakers, that both have an MTM and also some proof that they actually work as intended - measurements. They can also be made active and well.... it's your wallet that sets the limit 😉
Heissmann Acoustics | DXT-Wave | d appolito tower speaker
Here is a set of floor standing speakers, that both have an MTM and also some proof that they actually work as intended - measurements. They can also be made active and well.... it's your wallet that sets the limit 😉
Heissmann Acoustics | DXT-Wave | d appolito tower speaker
... and he uses the excelent low distorsion Wavecores : lower distorsion than most SB Acoustics and in par with the famous Revelators while less expensive.
Would like to see more Wavecores subjective reviews in face of the worldwide famous Satoris, Textremes and Revelators.
Would like to see more Wavecores subjective reviews in face of the worldwide famous Satoris, Textremes and Revelators.
Conceptually:
SEAS KingRO4Y Mk III
I'd put them on a stand that was a little lower and tilted up to the listening position. Note that even +/-30 degrees is pretty good.
You can use the less expensive Seas coaxial used in this kit:
Seas CX871 Coaxial 3-Way Speaker Kit by Peter Noerbaek - Pair
..and though the Seas LROY subwoofer as midbass in the active KingROY is excellent, you can do with something much *less expensive (considering the use of a subwoofer to augment the system's lower freq. performance).
*like perhaps the Dayton Audio RS225-8
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... and perhaps as well if going low enough : the Seas coaxial with the transparent polypro cone, than if close enough of the one made for the Proac Response 3, was sounding very very fine 🙂 with the doubt of the tweeter to be good enough but as one talks about digital EQ, why not.
Juhazi here uses this bass unit sealed and had very good review from listeners in Finland 🙂. The kit shown by Scott seems very good, I just will split the cabinet in two to isolate the heavy woofer from a same front bafle.
Juhazi here uses this bass unit sealed and had very good review from listeners in Finland 🙂. The kit shown by Scott seems very good, I just will split the cabinet in two to isolate the heavy woofer from a same front bafle.
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You have given good advice but many of them have been a bit to wide for my liking. After some thinking i remembered that my father has a audiovector subwoofer with a broken amp and i beleve that it uses a peerless xls or similar driver (have to take a look). it might be good to buy a cheeper floorstander kit like the nomex 164 mk2 i talked about in the beginning and if i later want "greatness" i could build i audiovector sub clone with a similar driver and build a 3,5 way with minidsp to cross the subs to the tower.
the dissadvantage of that compared something more costom are that the system maybe wont be as transparent, distortion free and image quite as well but the advantages would be the ability to not spend all the money at once ( cheeper if i am satisfied with less), more upgradebility, easier and the ability to spend more money on finish for a better looking, better built speaker (and my wallet will be happier). It might also result in a better sounding system if i spend some money on acoustic room treatment insted of a little bit more transparent driver.
today i also tried to do a three way with the n sats as mids and highs and some old pioneer s 710 speaker as bass drivers, i tried many different x over poins from 120 to 600hz and the high spl performance of the n sats did not improve so i will not build a bass cabinet/ stands for them.
So as of now i am most intressted in eighter the nomex kit or the rinjani kit but i feel like the nomex is a better designed kit but the rinjani uses better drivers (also 4-500 euro more).
still havent given up on a bookshelf kit with bass cabinet, stands or a 2 way active speaker its just diffucult to se how the results would improve sound much while still adding alot of difficulty.
Does anyone have experiance with budget vs high end drivers in the finished result (sound), i know the more expensive drivers are usually easier to design a x over for.
the dissadvantage of that compared something more costom are that the system maybe wont be as transparent, distortion free and image quite as well but the advantages would be the ability to not spend all the money at once ( cheeper if i am satisfied with less), more upgradebility, easier and the ability to spend more money on finish for a better looking, better built speaker (and my wallet will be happier). It might also result in a better sounding system if i spend some money on acoustic room treatment insted of a little bit more transparent driver.
today i also tried to do a three way with the n sats as mids and highs and some old pioneer s 710 speaker as bass drivers, i tried many different x over poins from 120 to 600hz and the high spl performance of the n sats did not improve so i will not build a bass cabinet/ stands for them.
So as of now i am most intressted in eighter the nomex kit or the rinjani kit but i feel like the nomex is a better designed kit but the rinjani uses better drivers (also 4-500 euro more).
still havent given up on a bookshelf kit with bass cabinet, stands or a 2 way active speaker its just diffucult to se how the results would improve sound much while still adding alot of difficulty.
Does anyone have experiance with budget vs high end drivers in the finished result (sound), i know the more expensive drivers are usually easier to design a x over for.
I just built Uluwatu. Sounds really terrific. It was my first build. California contact cement is not easy to work with so try "peel and stick." It's taken my whole setup up a notch.
My uluwatu build
Not a perfect finish but good enough from "afar" as it is said.
Shared album - Anthony Krinsky - Google Photos
Really outstanding sound. Don't miss the Rythmiks when they're playing full range. Makes James Taylor's sound awful at high volumes... which is just... true.
Not a perfect finish but good enough from "afar" as it is said.
Shared album - Anthony Krinsky - Google Photos
Really outstanding sound. Don't miss the Rythmiks when they're playing full range. Makes James Taylor's sound awful at high volumes... which is just... true.
The Solstice got an improved crossover from Richard Modafferi in the December 2021 issue of AudioXpress. Very interesting indeed!