Hi all, been interested in comparing larger commercial horns to my synergy horns....particularly their polars.
Anyway, i just sprung for the me464 after a friend got me ginned up over his plans with it.
Unusually warm day today let me make some outdoor tests.
Put the dcx464 on the horn, and make an on-axis tuning, to quickly see how off-axis appears to hold up. I was in a hurry, because wind was forecast to kick up soon.
I saw response that looked very good until 8kHz, where it then dropped much faster moving off-axis.
The drop off above 8k was fast enough, I though I should check another CD, so i put on a bms4594HE.
The wind was staying very calm, so after doing the same on-axis tuning process, I went ahead and made some horizontal polars out to 50 deg.
I was hoping to immediately go back to the dcx464 and make a set with it.
But the wind kicked up just as I was finishing with the bms, so that's all i have for now.
I'm sure folks would probably rather see the dcx than the bms...will post both horiz and vertical for it when i can.
Anyway, the point of all that rambling was to explain why the meas are not with the dcx464....which seems more appropriate.
Brown is 0 deg; Black is 10 deg (where i usually tune to);
and all the others are 10 deg increments out to 50 deg.
Anyway, i just sprung for the me464 after a friend got me ginned up over his plans with it.
Unusually warm day today let me make some outdoor tests.
Put the dcx464 on the horn, and make an on-axis tuning, to quickly see how off-axis appears to hold up. I was in a hurry, because wind was forecast to kick up soon.
I saw response that looked very good until 8kHz, where it then dropped much faster moving off-axis.
The drop off above 8k was fast enough, I though I should check another CD, so i put on a bms4594HE.
The wind was staying very calm, so after doing the same on-axis tuning process, I went ahead and made some horizontal polars out to 50 deg.
I was hoping to immediately go back to the dcx464 and make a set with it.
But the wind kicked up just as I was finishing with the bms, so that's all i have for now.
I'm sure folks would probably rather see the dcx than the bms...will post both horiz and vertical for it when i can.
Anyway, the point of all that rambling was to explain why the meas are not with the dcx464....which seems more appropriate.
Brown is 0 deg; Black is 10 deg (where i usually tune to);
and all the others are 10 deg increments out to 50 deg.
Thx johnnycamp5,
Two biggie things i should have mentioned.
The dcx464 polars will most likely look very close to the bms that were posted.
I will be super surprised if otherwise.
The dcx464 looked fine high passed with a BW 8th order at 300Hz...just like claimed.
The bms plot was with a 370Hz high pass....no way I'd try 300Hz.
On the me464, I feel more confident the dcx can pull 300Hz, than the bms can pull 370Hz.
You know, just some low level signal tuning so far.
Two biggie things i should have mentioned.
The dcx464 polars will most likely look very close to the bms that were posted.
I will be super surprised if otherwise.
The dcx464 looked fine high passed with a BW 8th order at 300Hz...just like claimed.
The bms plot was with a 370Hz high pass....no way I'd try 300Hz.
On the me464, I feel more confident the dcx can pull 300Hz, than the bms can pull 370Hz.
You know, just some low level signal tuning so far.
I think it was surely designed for the dcx464....maybe to prove the dcx464 has 300Hz hp capability as much as anything.
Since i couldn't measure anymore due to wind, i took the last tunings i made for the dcx464 on the horn for a listen.
Had to pull sub drivers out of my go-to subs, PPSL double 18"s, and put them in a pair of single sealed 18"s.
PPSL can't run higher than 120Hz.
I stacked the subs as per pict below, running both 20-300Hz.
Sucked, and not due to the dcx/me/464 combo.
Problem was lower, way too much c2c distance between bottom sub and horn, at 300Hz, i think.
So, kept top sub 20-300Hz to stay closer to 1/4 c2c with me464, changed bottom to 20-100Hz to alleviate coupling distance.
Much, much better, ...keeps proving to me that c2c that reduces combing, has to figured from extreme c2c distances of any and all contributors covering same frequency range,......... well, unless a line is truly formed for said frequency.
A quick prognosis....many folks would be super duper happy with the dcx464 and me464 combo.....especially if they like taking subs up to 300Hz.
This quick and nasty, tune and listen, is for sure just that so far...day one
Can't say it sings like the synergies, but personally, i absolutely adore comparing different designs... lets me find the weak spots....in every design, which i'm convinced they all have.
Attachments
Hi John, i don't understand what you are asking to see beyond the opening post.
As that had the frequency response of the horn only.
Woofer as in pict is simply xovered to match horn high-pass freq, using steep linear phase complementary Linkwitz-Riley.
Woofer is nearly inconsequential to how the dcx/me464 work together within their intended coverage range, I think.
For whole speaker it's clearly huge, but i'm a long way from dialing that in yet, or trying to show such measurements.
Measurements in #1 of the horn/CD alone, are at about 9ft outdoors.
I haven't found measurements of a horn at mouth or 1 meter to be of much value, too close, and make them only when further is not available.
(I wish I could measure polars at 4m outdoors easier than my setup allows.)
I use impedance for tuning box enclosures, but otherwise it's irrelevant to me in helping tuning.
I just record it for a new build, to use as indication of driver health later.
Xover between CD sections was at 6.1kHz / 96dB LR.
As stated hpf was at 370Hz, also 96dB LR.
Here's same graph with no smoothing, mag or phase.
You are correct....sorry for any exchange confusion.
Were you asking for indoor meas of the sub and horn stack?
I don't have any of those, and probably won't ever.
I just don't value indoor measurements much, unless working with a line or omni, or killing sub modes, etc.
Heck, from where i usually listen, the bottom sub isn't even visible, eclipsed by a pool table which really changes the notion of floor bounce LoL.
(I definitely do not tune to a sweet spot...always listen standing, moving around, dancing with me lady.
Double heck, i value how the rig sounds down the hall in my office, almost as much as out in the room
)Hi Charles,
They are bms 18n862. Haven't had them in those closed boxes in years, but as i remember, and looking at old meas, they worked very well.
And they made some serious bass last night after a little too much wine haha
With any luck today, i'll have an outdoor meas of them under the me464.
Had a hard time finding breaks in the wind, but did get a little decent testing in.
Here's the same 10 degree horizontal polars out to 50 degrees, after applying tuning to 10 degrees (as if were on-axis).
Hard-to-see Red is 10 deg, light-green 0 deg.
300Hz LR96 hpf, xover 3.2kHz LR96
Oh, and a customary 20kHz Bu4 low pass that was in BMS graphs as well.
First no smoothing, then smoothed for better reading.
They look dang close to bms, as expected...but with maybe a bit more VHF rolloff.
Had a request for the raw response of the dcx464 on the me464.
Here's no smoothing at 10 deg H.
Last I was hoping to get to Vertical polars, but it became clear wind was building too fast to make meas.
So I quickly did some sub tuning, so I could move inside and listen later.
Here's with sub added, unsmoothed, crossed at 300Hz LR96.
Gotta love modern tuning tools
Here's the same 10 degree horizontal polars out to 50 degrees, after applying tuning to 10 degrees (as if were on-axis).
Hard-to-see Red is 10 deg, light-green 0 deg.
300Hz LR96 hpf, xover 3.2kHz LR96
Oh, and a customary 20kHz Bu4 low pass that was in BMS graphs as well.
First no smoothing, then smoothed for better reading.
They look dang close to bms, as expected...but with maybe a bit more VHF rolloff.
Had a request for the raw response of the dcx464 on the me464.
Here's no smoothing at 10 deg H.
Last I was hoping to get to Vertical polars, but it became clear wind was building too fast to make meas.
So I quickly did some sub tuning, so I could move inside and listen later.
Here's with sub added, unsmoothed, crossed at 300Hz LR96.
Gotta love modern tuning tools
ME464 with DCX464 v. Synergy?
Hi Mark100,
Thanks a lot for posting this! I am very curious about how the B&C combo (DCX464 on the ME464 horns sound relative to your Synergy horns with the DCX464). Could you please elaborate?
I ask because I am intrigued for sure by the Synergy concept, but they seem quite difficult to get right unless you are an expert, so I have thought about cheating by means of 'pseudo synergy' using the B&C DCX464/ME464, 'surrounded' by 4 pc of 15" Faital 15PR400 pr side (two woofers horizontally mounted below and two horizontally mounted above) - like a 'giant coax'. The horizontally mounted woofers would then help making the dispersion match around the 300/350 Hz x-over point. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Hi Mark100,
Thanks a lot for posting this! I am very curious about how the B&C combo (DCX464 on the ME464 horns sound relative to your Synergy horns with the DCX464). Could you please elaborate?
I ask because I am intrigued for sure by the Synergy concept, but they seem quite difficult to get right unless you are an expert, so I have thought about cheating by means of 'pseudo synergy' using the B&C DCX464/ME464, 'surrounded' by 4 pc of 15" Faital 15PR400 pr side (two woofers horizontally mounted below and two horizontally mounted above) - like a 'giant coax'. The horizontally mounted woofers would then help making the dispersion match around the 300/350 Hz x-over point. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter