First post on this forum and sorry if there was a sticky about recommended builds somewhere, I did not find it.
I'm looking for ideas/recommendations for a large, max 60L, bookself speaker. The size can be smaller of course, but since a big percentage of my listening is movies and series I prefer the dynamics and overall benefits of bigger speakers. I also like directive speakers (horns and such), but I'm always up for a change if there is some compelling build. Since the speaker would be a bookself the height would be limited to 60cm.
At the moment I'm using Finnish speaker designer Samu Saurama's coaxial desing. It uses Eminence CX12 woofer and Selenium D220Ti compression driver. I also have two subwoofers to deal with under 80hz frequencies. I would like to keep my crossover at 80hz or below.
Now I'm looking for a step, or two, higher in overall sound quality. Samu's newest design using B&C 15CXN76 piqued my interest first, but I felt curious about other options outside of Finland.
After the initial interest in better coaxial design I started to look at 2-way designs using horn and 10-12" woofers. These seemed interesting but as I read more about the designs it seems that they is fundamentally "flawed" because the matching of horn and the woofer would require rather large compromises in almost all situations. I started to think about 3-way builds, but I just thought that I might be better off asking recommendations at this point.
I have no speaker design skills other than that I have designed my own subwoofers and build my current speakers following instructions. I'm not necessarily looking for a ready package (such as DIYSG-builds), parts list and crossover schematic will do.
So, do you guys have go-to build ideas? I list a few builds I have found interesting below.
- Samu Saurama's other builds (coaxial and 2-way designs in general)
- Econowave (mainly PA310-8 and D220Ti version)
- TPL-150H-based builds (this would probably be a challenge to make work with 2-way passive design?)
- Some 3-way build (I think the speaker height would become limiting considering this option)
And just to be clear, my requirements and limits for the design:
- Cabinet size 60L or under, height 60cm or under, bookself speaker.
- Used for movies, series and music. Personally I prefer more directive designs.
- Passive crossover design preferred.
- Bass extension to atleast 70-80hz
- No specific budget yet, just looking for ideas in general.
I'm looking for ideas/recommendations for a large, max 60L, bookself speaker. The size can be smaller of course, but since a big percentage of my listening is movies and series I prefer the dynamics and overall benefits of bigger speakers. I also like directive speakers (horns and such), but I'm always up for a change if there is some compelling build. Since the speaker would be a bookself the height would be limited to 60cm.
At the moment I'm using Finnish speaker designer Samu Saurama's coaxial desing. It uses Eminence CX12 woofer and Selenium D220Ti compression driver. I also have two subwoofers to deal with under 80hz frequencies. I would like to keep my crossover at 80hz or below.
Now I'm looking for a step, or two, higher in overall sound quality. Samu's newest design using B&C 15CXN76 piqued my interest first, but I felt curious about other options outside of Finland.
After the initial interest in better coaxial design I started to look at 2-way designs using horn and 10-12" woofers. These seemed interesting but as I read more about the designs it seems that they is fundamentally "flawed" because the matching of horn and the woofer would require rather large compromises in almost all situations. I started to think about 3-way builds, but I just thought that I might be better off asking recommendations at this point.
I have no speaker design skills other than that I have designed my own subwoofers and build my current speakers following instructions. I'm not necessarily looking for a ready package (such as DIYSG-builds), parts list and crossover schematic will do.
So, do you guys have go-to build ideas? I list a few builds I have found interesting below.
- Samu Saurama's other builds (coaxial and 2-way designs in general)
- Econowave (mainly PA310-8 and D220Ti version)
- TPL-150H-based builds (this would probably be a challenge to make work with 2-way passive design?)
- Some 3-way build (I think the speaker height would become limiting considering this option)
And just to be clear, my requirements and limits for the design:
- Cabinet size 60L or under, height 60cm or under, bookself speaker.
- Used for movies, series and music. Personally I prefer more directive designs.
- Passive crossover design preferred.
- Bass extension to atleast 70-80hz
- No specific budget yet, just looking for ideas in general.
Meniscusaudio.com has some kit designs you might like to consider. For a strictly bookshelf size speaker Dennis Murphy's Philharmonica BMR kit is pretty special. That and magiclx521.com LX Mini (which is a small floor stander and not a bookshelf) are two that are worth considering. In a field where the options are almost endless one approach I find helpful is to start with the room where you will be playing the speakers and what kind of listening you will be doing. Is it just for you? Then a speaker with a single sweet spot might be fine. Is it for watching movies with friends? Different requirement. A small room for intimate listening or a grand room for head banger parties. When you start with the end in mind you might find the final results are much more satisfying. Happy building.
I might have looked into Meniscusaudio some years ago, I'll check them again. Thanks for the suggestion!
I felt like I forgot something in the message, it seems it was the whole listening room. Just a slight omission. My room is a non symmetrical mess. It is approximately 4 meters wide, 4,5 meters deep and 2,5 meters high. Speakers are on the shorter wall and listening position is about 2-2,5m from the front wall. Left wall is basically non-existent (there are entrances to other rooms) and right wall has couple of big windows. Back wall is "normal" except in the corner there is a staircase to upper floor. The listening area is a typical modern nordic living room. To be clear, I'm moving to said apartment in a month.
I intend to install some acoustic panels to the ceiling and back wall if the room seems too echoey. The exact amounts and type of panels will be determined in the future. My vague plans include a 3000x1200x50mm cloud with 50mm airgap installed to the roof at first reflection point and some 50mm thick panels on the back wall reflection point. But as said, plans are quite vague at the moment.
I'm not a person organizing parties and such so the speakers would mainly have one or two listeners. Single sweetspot is enough and I intend to be there myself. The other spots are for my people who are not so critical about quality.
I felt like I forgot something in the message, it seems it was the whole listening room. Just a slight omission. My room is a non symmetrical mess. It is approximately 4 meters wide, 4,5 meters deep and 2,5 meters high. Speakers are on the shorter wall and listening position is about 2-2,5m from the front wall. Left wall is basically non-existent (there are entrances to other rooms) and right wall has couple of big windows. Back wall is "normal" except in the corner there is a staircase to upper floor. The listening area is a typical modern nordic living room. To be clear, I'm moving to said apartment in a month.
I intend to install some acoustic panels to the ceiling and back wall if the room seems too echoey. The exact amounts and type of panels will be determined in the future. My vague plans include a 3000x1200x50mm cloud with 50mm airgap installed to the roof at first reflection point and some 50mm thick panels on the back wall reflection point. But as said, plans are quite vague at the moment.
I'm not a person organizing parties and such so the speakers would mainly have one or two listeners. Single sweetspot is enough and I intend to be there myself. The other spots are for my people who are not so critical about quality.
Bumping my old thread.
Still reading up on this and have learned at least something.
Firstly, I still haven't found anything ready and available. DIYSG HTM-12 would be interesting but the kit has not been available for pretty long now. This is pretty much only Seos-based build I consider possible since the horn is included in the build. The availability of Seos-horns is practically non-existent in Finland and postages from US are pretty high for the horn, but in the case of HTM-12 I could justify the postages.
I still find the basic concept (high efficiency mid-bass, waveguide/horn and CD) very appealing. I have narrowed down my options a bit.
CD: B&C DE250 seems interesting and a good replacement for the Denovo DNA-360
Horn: "JBL clone" or 18Sound XT1086 (any opinions on these?)
Mid-bass: Looking for a 12" that would extend to atleast 80hz in 60-80L enclosure. Eminence Deltalite II 2512 seems a popular option.
Basically I'm looking for a HTM-12 clone with parts better available locally. The most problematic part by far is the horn(+cd).
To put that all shortly: 2-way, high efficiency, HTM-12 "clone" without Seos-12 and parts available in EU. Is is possible?
Still reading up on this and have learned at least something.
Firstly, I still haven't found anything ready and available. DIYSG HTM-12 would be interesting but the kit has not been available for pretty long now. This is pretty much only Seos-based build I consider possible since the horn is included in the build. The availability of Seos-horns is practically non-existent in Finland and postages from US are pretty high for the horn, but in the case of HTM-12 I could justify the postages.
I still find the basic concept (high efficiency mid-bass, waveguide/horn and CD) very appealing. I have narrowed down my options a bit.
CD: B&C DE250 seems interesting and a good replacement for the Denovo DNA-360
Horn: "JBL clone" or 18Sound XT1086 (any opinions on these?)
Mid-bass: Looking for a 12" that would extend to atleast 80hz in 60-80L enclosure. Eminence Deltalite II 2512 seems a popular option.
Basically I'm looking for a HTM-12 clone with parts better available locally. The most problematic part by far is the horn(+cd).
To put that all shortly: 2-way, high efficiency, HTM-12 "clone" without Seos-12 and parts available in EU. Is is possible?
You may find some interesting info /idea here,
DIY-Loudspeakers
60cm high, 3 way, passive. SBA-941
I built Ellam-Discovery-15 and have DTQWT-mkIII-FLAT
Both to me sound very good.
Down side crossover values come when you buy kit of parts. Not cheap, but sound good straight away. Depends how much design, trial and error / time vs money you want to spend.
DIY-Loudspeakers
60cm high, 3 way, passive. SBA-941
I built Ellam-Discovery-15 and have DTQWT-mkIII-FLAT
Both to me sound very good.
Down side crossover values come when you buy kit of parts. Not cheap, but sound good straight away. Depends how much design, trial and error / time vs money you want to spend.
I think you should raise your lower crossover target up to 200Hz or higher because your room is 13 feet x 13 feet x 8 feet. Then, you might build wide baffle/shallow depth speakers that you can place on the wall to create your directivity.
The photo is a GGNTXT M1. Build the front part of the speaker but not the back part. Except, use a dome tweeter instead of a compression horn. And build it to operate above 200Hz rather than down to 29Hz.
Here's a post that shows what happens when you place a good dome tweeter on a wide baffle. Loudspeaker Enclosures are Waveguides
Or, stick with the Finnish designers because those guys seem to be pretty good.
The photo is a GGNTXT M1. Build the front part of the speaker but not the back part. Except, use a dome tweeter instead of a compression horn. And build it to operate above 200Hz rather than down to 29Hz.
Here's a post that shows what happens when you place a good dome tweeter on a wide baffle. Loudspeaker Enclosures are Waveguides
Or, stick with the Finnish designers because those guys seem to be pretty good.
Attachments
Thanks for the ideas!
I managed to find one Econowave that could be built with EU parts (that I consider interesting). Econowave Delite 10 with XT1086, DE250 and Deltalite 2510. Any opinions on that one?
Are there any noteworthy DIY builds that I could read up on? Seems interesting and I haven't really considered that one. WAF would probably be bit of a problem depending on the baffle size. Not that Econowaves or 12" coaxials are that "decorative" either...
I've read up on the Troels speakers. They all seem very good and easy to build (no need for any tinkering with crossover), but I don't think they offer what I am after. They are really different to Econowave and big coaxials which I like. I'm sure they measure better in many ways, but I'm more willing to exchange some of the absolute sound quality to more output capability.
This seems rather interesting and is pretty much what I am after. All the parts except for waveguide should be pretty basic stuff here in EU. I just hope that the waveguide won't be the downfall of this alternative also. Thanks for the tip, I will read more about the NA12 first.
I managed to find one Econowave that could be built with EU parts (that I consider interesting). Econowave Delite 10 with XT1086, DE250 and Deltalite 2510. Any opinions on that one?
I continued to read on subject and now I think I'm getting close to solution.
I ended in Econowave-ish direction and finally found a version that seems attainable: CircuitLab - Editing "Unnamed Circuit" Bwaslo's desing using Seos12, DE250 and Deltalite II 2512. I knew that someone had already designed pretty much the same speaker that I was searching.
Buying the horn seems to be problematic, but I may have just found a place that could manifacture one. This build pretty much depends on the horn.
It seems that the Deltalite can work in a 60-70L sealed or ported enclosure. Is there any reason not to go for ported (70L, 45hz tune)?
According to WinISD ported has 2-4dB advantage from 40hz to 120hz (ported goes over xmax at 38hz). This would give me atleast more headroom and the possibility to cross over to the subs at 40-60hz instead of 80hz. Is there any major trade-off in going ported?
Any opinions on the Bwaslo's design? Is there any other version that I should be aware of?
I ended in Econowave-ish direction and finally found a version that seems attainable: CircuitLab - Editing "Unnamed Circuit" Bwaslo's desing using Seos12, DE250 and Deltalite II 2512. I knew that someone had already designed pretty much the same speaker that I was searching.
Buying the horn seems to be problematic, but I may have just found a place that could manifacture one. This build pretty much depends on the horn.
It seems that the Deltalite can work in a 60-70L sealed or ported enclosure. Is there any reason not to go for ported (70L, 45hz tune)?
Any opinions on the Bwaslo's design? Is there any other version that I should be aware of?
Yeah, it's a no-go. Horns would be 250€ shipped, I won't pay that much for a horn that was sold like $20-30 while available in PE.
Fortunately I found a dealer that sells QSC HPR152i horns. That means that Econowave Delite 12 would be possible to build. Parts would now be HPR152i, DE250 and Deltalite II 2512.
While looking for Zilch's crossovers I noticed that he tends to use L-pads quite frequently in his designs. Is the crossover possible to build without L-pad by replacing it with resistors? Just curious why Zilch went that way in his designs. He must have used a fixed point on l-pad while designing the crossover so why incorporate the l-pad and not use resistors? I have no knowledge in crossover design so I'm just wondering.
Fortunately I found a dealer that sells QSC HPR152i horns. That means that Econowave Delite 12 would be possible to build. Parts would now be HPR152i, DE250 and Deltalite II 2512.
While looking for Zilch's crossovers I noticed that he tends to use L-pads quite frequently in his designs. Is the crossover possible to build without L-pad by replacing it with resistors? Just curious why Zilch went that way in his designs. He must have used a fixed point on l-pad while designing the crossover so why incorporate the l-pad and not use resistors? I have no knowledge in crossover design so I'm just wondering.
How can I calculate the values if I choose to use resistors? For example the Econowave Delite crossover has no values for the L-pad so I wouldn't be able to estimate some values from the middle and just buy those resistors.
Sorry for asking such basic questions. To be clear, I'm just being curious. The money saved by skipping the L-pad is not that much that it really would be worth the effort. And I wouldn't have the adjustability without the L-pad.
Sorry for asking such basic questions. To be clear, I'm just being curious. The money saved by skipping the L-pad is not that much that it really would be worth the effort. And I wouldn't have the adjustability without the L-pad.
The convenience of the variable L-pad is optional. Resistors are not especially expensive so you should be able to pick up a range of values.
Finding the values to use is a matter of trial and error. You have to weigh up the attenuation, the final load, and also the ability to maximise the reduction of the variations in the impedance, unless you are also using RLC impedance conjugates.
Finding the values to use is a matter of trial and error. You have to weigh up the attenuation, the final load, and also the ability to maximise the reduction of the variations in the impedance, unless you are also using RLC impedance conjugates.
That is pretty much what I thought. I have some resistors over from former builds, but I don't think I would be saving a significant amount of money by trying my luck.
At this point I only have one lingering question. Econowaves seem to have declined in popularity from around 2010. I suspect this partly caused by lack of certain popular parts, but is there some other reason? The parts are not impossible to get and I suspect the situation is a little bit better in US than in EU. Are the Econowave designs some way outdated? They use pretty basic PA-parts and but I haven't found any new designs. Basically every design I have looked for has been out almost 10 years.
I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a bit peculiar to me why so popular design concept pretty much disappeared around 2014. It's not like people stopped liking dynamics and directivity overnight? There are some new designs, for example DIYSG and the Finnish designs I mentioned, but I get the feel that the scene has been on a decline. I started this hobby around 2016, wish I was in a bit earlier.
At this point I only have one lingering question. Econowaves seem to have declined in popularity from around 2010. I suspect this partly caused by lack of certain popular parts, but is there some other reason? The parts are not impossible to get and I suspect the situation is a little bit better in US than in EU. Are the Econowave designs some way outdated? They use pretty basic PA-parts and but I haven't found any new designs. Basically every design I have looked for has been out almost 10 years.
I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a bit peculiar to me why so popular design concept pretty much disappeared around 2014. It's not like people stopped liking dynamics and directivity overnight? There are some new designs, for example DIYSG and the Finnish designs I mentioned, but I get the feel that the scene has been on a decline. I started this hobby around 2016, wish I was in a bit earlier.
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A well designed waveguide two-way is such a good performer that there's no need for it to go out of date. The econowaves use readily available parts and traditional DIY construction which makes them more accessible.
Although Zilch is not with us, take a look at his crossovers. They are something you can work with, tweak, make yourself with a little experimenting, maybe some basic measurement.
Although Zilch is not with us, take a look at his crossovers. They are something you can work with, tweak, make yourself with a little experimenting, maybe some basic measurement.
That sounds good, never really considered that the design would have been kind of perfected.
I'm actually going to start with the Zilch's Delite 12 crossover. Maybe, if I feel brave enough, I might tinker with it. I have Umik-1 and know how to use REW so I can take basic measurements. I also have Denon X3400H which gives me the possibility to use EQ (although the implementation of the MultEQ app is horrible). So I might just start with some EQ-corrections and see where that gets me.
Still sourcing some of the parts but the build is starting to come together. Thanks a lot for your input AllenB!
I'm actually going to start with the Zilch's Delite 12 crossover. Maybe, if I feel brave enough, I might tinker with it. I have Umik-1 and know how to use REW so I can take basic measurements. I also have Denon X3400H which gives me the possibility to use EQ (although the implementation of the MultEQ app is horrible). So I might just start with some EQ-corrections and see where that gets me.
Still sourcing some of the parts but the build is starting to come together. Thanks a lot for your input AllenB!
And surprise surprise, the QSC horn seems not to be available at all. That was pretty much the last chance gone building the Econowave. I'm still searching but not getting my hopes up...
Anyway, found an interesting build on this site: 12" midbass with Faital LTH102 ?. All the parts are available and the cost is not bad. Im sure the cd+horn is good enough for me, but can't really find any opinions/comparisons on the midbass. How does the 12PR300 compare to let's say Kappalite 3012LF and Deltalite 2512? WinISD tells me that Faital works a bit better on the enclosure size I'm planning on, but how does it stack up in the quality department?
Anyway, found an interesting build on this site: 12" midbass with Faital LTH102 ?. All the parts are available and the cost is not bad. Im sure the cd+horn is good enough for me, but can't really find any opinions/comparisons on the midbass. How does the 12PR300 compare to let's say Kappalite 3012LF and Deltalite 2512? WinISD tells me that Faital works a bit better on the enclosure size I'm planning on, but how does it stack up in the quality department?
Kappalite has a better motor than the PR300 series.
This waveguide looks closest to the QSC that's currently available.
Eminence WG10 1" High Frequency Waveguide 70x60 2-Bolt
This waveguide looks closest to the QSC that's currently available.
Eminence WG10 1" High Frequency Waveguide 70x60 2-Bolt
What do you guys think of pairing these together:
18Sound XT1086
18Sound ND1090 or NSD1090N
18Sound 12NMB420
Idea came to me when I read LinearSources comment that the 12NMB420 is one of the few 12" woofers that can be paired to XT1086. ND1090 and NSD1090N have been reviewed to be considerably better than DE250. It just so happens that Samu Saurama (designer of my current speakers) designed a speaker based on XT1086, NSD1090N and 15NMB420. I would by the kit in a heartbeat, but the size required by 15" woofer is a bit too much.
12" version should work fine in 60L enclosure, it offers plenty of output for my needs and it should be able to cross as high as needed. Is my search over?
18Sound XT1086
18Sound ND1090 or NSD1090N
18Sound 12NMB420
Idea came to me when I read LinearSources comment that the 12NMB420 is one of the few 12" woofers that can be paired to XT1086. ND1090 and NSD1090N have been reviewed to be considerably better than DE250. It just so happens that Samu Saurama (designer of my current speakers) designed a speaker based on XT1086, NSD1090N and 15NMB420. I would by the kit in a heartbeat, but the size required by 15" woofer is a bit too much.
12" version should work fine in 60L enclosure, it offers plenty of output for my needs and it should be able to cross as high as needed. Is my search over?
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