If we want to introduce full range to this discussion; I vote for the new Mark Audio Pluvia 7PHD (P7PHD). This is the paper cone version. Elsewhere; I keep saying how very much I love these! Well; it's true! I don't own stock in that company but I could easily be a sales rep. for the P7PHD as many times as I have touted it! I hate sales and politics by the way!!!
You can get 40 Hz out of these in the proper box, in a partially sealed, partially open at the rear enclosure; these naturally roll-off on the low end around 150 Hz. In a closed box, they do well also. PM me for details if interested; I don't want to start to hog all of the threads; people will start to get annoyed with me if they "THINK" all I ever do is praise these!
You can get 40 Hz out of these in the proper box, in a partially sealed, partially open at the rear enclosure; these naturally roll-off on the low end around 150 Hz. In a closed box, they do well also. PM me for details if interested; I don't want to start to hog all of the threads; people will start to get annoyed with me if they "THINK" all I ever do is praise these!
Thanks for the correction and suggestion on caps xrk
oldspkrguy, I might try the pluvia in another build sometime. I keep hearing great things about them and I'm interested, but they're just not what I'm looking for in this particular build.
I am in the same boat. Saw the discount and purchased them. So I am interested in knowing what you decide to do.
My original plan was to build Zaphs ZDT3.5 : Audio Dayton Tower 3.5 Way. This build uses RS180, but seeing the discounts on RS225 I jumped on them. I guess I can use them in ZDT3.5 since the woofer to mid crossover is at 850Hz, which I believe RS225 can easily handle.
I had specific question to the the experts about mid-ranges. The ZDT3.5 uses RS52AN. I came across this site By Feleppa with reviews of various midranges. He has good things to say about RS52AN but is more impressed with RS75, plus they are cheaper.
Timothy Feleppa's Pages: Speaker Measurements - Midrange/Fullrange Speakers 4" and smaller
Down side is RS75 has lower SPL and power handling. So we might need two RS75.
Which boils down to the question, what is better (assuming we use same tweeter as in ZDT3.5, ie ND20FB4). Note with two RS75 the cost is a wash between the two options.
A) Use one RS52AN (TMWW configuration)
B) Use 2 RS75 (MTMWW or WMTMW configuration)
Separate question, Feleppa was not happy with RS52FN, anyone else has any experience with them?
thanks in advance.
Brij
My original plan was to build Zaphs ZDT3.5 : Audio Dayton Tower 3.5 Way. This build uses RS180, but seeing the discounts on RS225 I jumped on them. I guess I can use them in ZDT3.5 since the woofer to mid crossover is at 850Hz, which I believe RS225 can easily handle.
I had specific question to the the experts about mid-ranges. The ZDT3.5 uses RS52AN. I came across this site By Feleppa with reviews of various midranges. He has good things to say about RS52AN but is more impressed with RS75, plus they are cheaper.
Timothy Feleppa's Pages: Speaker Measurements - Midrange/Fullrange Speakers 4" and smaller
Down side is RS75 has lower SPL and power handling. So we might need two RS75.
Which boils down to the question, what is better (assuming we use same tweeter as in ZDT3.5, ie ND20FB4). Note with two RS75 the cost is a wash between the two options.
A) Use one RS52AN (TMWW configuration)
B) Use 2 RS75 (MTMWW or WMTMW configuration)
Separate question, Feleppa was not happy with RS52FN, anyone else has any experience with them?
thanks in advance.
Brij
I have a suggestion if you guys don’t know what to do with them. This is one of the best sounding speakers I have ever heard. Everyone who has made one agrees it’s the best they have heard. The RS225-8 is what holds it all together. It’s unique flat wide bandwidth makes a 1st order transient perfect crossover possible.
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
Either the floorstanding TL or the sealed stand mount (no AMT needed):
TL Plans:
XO Design (PCBs avail):
Measured step response:
Frequency and distortion at about 79dB output at 1m:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
Either the floorstanding TL or the sealed stand mount (no AMT needed):
TL Plans:
XO Design (PCBs avail):
Measured step response:
Frequency and distortion at about 79dB output at 1m:
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Those do look impressive. Now I almost wish I'd bought 6 rs225 instead of 4. I mean what am I supposed to do, make 4 speakers and have a quadrophonic setup instead of stereo? What a problem to have!
At the moment I'm leaning toward either 2x rs125-8 with the neocd3.5h or a Scanspeak 15M/4624G paired with the Bozhen cq76 ribbon.
My issue with going to a lower sensitivity mid is that with the design I have in mind, baffle step will occur at high enough frequency that it will be in the range covered by the mid, not the woofer, so the mid needs to be sensitive enough to handle that as well.... unless I'm missing something
Edit: Could always do 2 of those 10F/8424s per speaker instead I guess
What a problem to have!At the moment I'm leaning toward either 2x rs125-8 with the neocd3.5h or a Scanspeak 15M/4624G paired with the Bozhen cq76 ribbon.
My issue with going to a lower sensitivity mid is that with the design I have in mind, baffle step will occur at high enough frequency that it will be in the range covered by the mid, not the woofer, so the mid needs to be sensitive enough to handle that as well.... unless I'm missing something
Edit: Could always do 2 of those 10F/8424s per speaker instead I guess
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I'd probably go with the rs52 out of your two options Beij. 2x rs75 have 3dB less sensitivity than rs52an. 2x rs100-8 might work though. I think that design could probably be modified to fit the RS225 pretty well.
Seems like I've heard the same as you about the RS52FN somewhere... Different source though. Can't remember where.
A pair of RS225-8 in parallel will be 93dB at 2.83v but -5dB baffle step puts it at 88dB - only 1dB more than 10F/8424. That let’s you run the 10F without any padding. The 1dB on 10F is perfect if you like a slight -5dB tilt from 20Hz bass to 20kHz highs for fatigue free listening.
You could make a WTW TL. It would be big and impressive.
You could make a WTW TL. It would be big and impressive.
That could be fun. It might be a bit bigger than I was planning, but like you said, big and impressive!
Do you have any data on the off axis response? I'd imagine it'd fall off above 5 kHz or so. Guess that's the tradeoff for a cool design like that, and it seems like there are tradeoffs no matter what direction we take this, so I guess off axis response is as good a tradeoff to make as any!
Do you have any data on the off axis response? I'd imagine it'd fall off above 5 kHz or so. Guess that's the tradeoff for a cool design like that, and it seems like there are tradeoffs no matter what direction we take this, so I guess off axis response is as good a tradeoff to make as any!
ILikeFoodz,
Thanks for the input. Looks like RS52FN is out of the running for sure.
XRK,
I did build one of your designs, the foamcore wall mounted design using TC9.
Flat wall mount stereo MLTL with Vifa TC9FD Foam Core Board Speaker Enclosures?
It was a fun project. I think I didn't seal the box well or something, didn't get as much bass as I though I would. Then again my expectations had no basis in any previous experiences as it was my first speaker build.
Your suggestions for WAW ref Monitor is interesting. My initial reaction was heck, lets build one, its just one driver, until I saw the price for ScanSpeak 10F/8424 Discovery. Yikes $104 each!!
Since I already have a pair of TC9FD, I will try it with that first. Has anyone tried it yet? I see that you mentioned it would work in the same thread as WAW.
Thanks
Thanks for the input. Looks like RS52FN is out of the running for sure.
XRK,
I did build one of your designs, the foamcore wall mounted design using TC9.
Flat wall mount stereo MLTL with Vifa TC9FD Foam Core Board Speaker Enclosures?
It was a fun project. I think I didn't seal the box well or something, didn't get as much bass as I though I would. Then again my expectations had no basis in any previous experiences as it was my first speaker build.
Your suggestions for WAW ref Monitor is interesting. My initial reaction was heck, lets build one, its just one driver, until I saw the price for ScanSpeak 10F/8424 Discovery. Yikes $104 each!!
Since I already have a pair of TC9FD, I will try it with that first. Has anyone tried it yet? I see that you mentioned it would work in the same thread as WAW.
Thanks
Yes, it would sound about 90% of the ScanSpeak, or IOW, excellent. It’s 2dB less sensitive so change the first two resistors R1/R2 to 3.3R over 6.8R instead of 4.7R/4.7R.
Another good one 3FE25 or PS95-8, both reasonably priced. The B80 is excellent too for $52. That one might be on par with 10F/8424 and perhaps more high end response.
Another good one 3FE25 or PS95-8, both reasonably priced. The B80 is excellent too for $52. That one might be on par with 10F/8424 and perhaps more high end response.
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I need to try the B80. I really like the scanspeak 10f but think it should be in the 50-70 range. I'm gonna try out the SB SB12MNRX225-4 with my RS225's. It shows legit 90-91db sensitivity so should be a pretty close match. I do still have a quad of the old RS225's that are a little more sensitive if needed.
Hi Bsp,
No EQ or DSP, this is a passive 1st order transient perfect crossover developed over several years and a lot of measurement and listening to acheive a "monitor" like flat response. The XO however, appears quite simple and looks like this:
Here is what the XO's look like in practice:
Here is the predicted XO curve:
Coupled with a TL for bass extension which produces:
Without the TL, and a sealed 24L box, you get this (some differences come from fact that the RS225 and 10F's are from different production batches 4 years apart):
Look at the flat phase - which then enables a step response like this:
Here is the measured impedance sweep with the XO and TL, you can see I still need to do a little tweaking with the stuffing to balance the two channels, but the XO presents a very easy to drive nominal 8ohm load, peaking around 20ohms and dipping down only to 7ohms:
Here are the speakers both sealed (on stands) and TL (floor standing) in my lab:
If you are interested, more info here:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
No EQ or DSP, this is a passive 1st order transient perfect crossover developed over several years and a lot of measurement and listening to acheive a "monitor" like flat response. The XO however, appears quite simple and looks like this:
Here is what the XO's look like in practice:
Here is the predicted XO curve:
Coupled with a TL for bass extension which produces:
Without the TL, and a sealed 24L box, you get this (some differences come from fact that the RS225 and 10F's are from different production batches 4 years apart):
Look at the flat phase - which then enables a step response like this:
Here is the measured impedance sweep with the XO and TL, you can see I still need to do a little tweaking with the stuffing to balance the two channels, but the XO presents a very easy to drive nominal 8ohm load, peaking around 20ohms and dipping down only to 7ohms:
Here are the speakers both sealed (on stands) and TL (floor standing) in my lab:
If you are interested, more info here:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
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Well, I pulled the trigger and bought the midrange and tweeter. I ended up changing the design to just use a 12 inch rectangular baffle, which made it so the high sensitivity mid was unnecessary. I went with
Wavecor WF118WA01
and
SB26CDC
I was going to go with the BZ Labs CQ76B ribbon for the tweeter, but decided that they probably warrant some better bass and mids to really show their potential, so I'll probably just use them in the next build I do instead.
The Wavecor seemed to be a solid performer, other similar mids from them had nice low distortion according to the data sheets (distortion isn't shown on this one ), plus I like trying new brands that I haven't used before.
I went passive XO too. Just binged a 4 hour design session for the initial theoretical XO - we'll see how close it matches reality I guess!
Wavecor WF118WA01
and
SB26CDC
I was going to go with the BZ Labs CQ76B ribbon for the tweeter, but decided that they probably warrant some better bass and mids to really show their potential, so I'll probably just use them in the next build I do instead.
The Wavecor seemed to be a solid performer, other similar mids from them had nice low distortion according to the data sheets (distortion isn't shown on this one
), plus I like trying new brands that I haven't used before.I went passive XO too. Just binged a 4 hour design session for the initial theoretical XO - we'll see how close it matches reality I guess!
Well, I pulled the trigger and bought the midrange and tweeter. I ended up changing the design to just use a 12 inch rectangular baffle, which made it so the high sensitivity mid was unnecessary. I went with
Wavecor WF118WA01
and
SB26CDC
I was going to go with the BZ Labs CQ76B ribbon for the tweeter, but decided that they probably warrant some better bass and mids to really show their potential, so I'll probably just use them in the next build I do instead.
The Wavecor seemed to be a solid performer, other similar mids from them had nice low distortion according to the data sheets (distortion isn't shown on this one
I went passive XO too. Just binged a 4 hour design session for the initial theoretical XO - we'll see how close it matches reality I guess!
Looks like a good choice! I understand that some of the Wavcor people came from Vifa. So, maybe this is the Chinese produced answer to the Vifa heritage!? If so; they should sound really good for the money. I have used Vifa and Peerless many times in the past; I always had good results; even with some of their lower priced drivers. I am into many different SB drivers these days; from the Scan Speak heritage. All SB drivers are well made and sound great; even the less expensive ones. Wavcor may be similar I'm guessing?
How do you find the "sound quality" of this Wavcor so far? I have been tempted to try some of their drivers. Maybe a future project (soon???)
I've heard good things about their sound quality although I have yet to hear anything by them myself. I'm glad to hear that they have some Vifa designers - I've been very happy with the Vifa and Peerless drivers I've used in the past and been pleasantly surprised by some of the cheaper ones.
I actually started a thread here called "Quality of Wavecor Drivers" or something similar shortly after Parts-Express started stocking them and people generally seemed to think they were pretty good. I guess I'll find out and let you all know
I actually started a thread here called "Quality of Wavecor Drivers" or something similar shortly after Parts-Express started stocking them and people generally seemed to think they were pretty good. I guess I'll find out and let you all know
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