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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
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Old 26th April 2020, 03:52 PM   #21
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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the suround extra length from the front metalic plate is 2 mm...1.8 mm perhaps.

3 mm gasket so 1 mm to 1.2 mm space with the back plate of the throat.

The Eq/DSP is a no go for a cheap project as I have first to jump towards active filtering... have to cross the step towards the XXI century...
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Old 27th April 2020, 03:11 AM   #22
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
About your second question : I absolutly don't know,
It was a rhetorical question but let me explain. A front chamber reduces the higher frequencies. It is sometimes used on limited bandwidth horns. It is not a necessary part of a properly designed waveguide.
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Old 27th April 2020, 12:24 PM   #23
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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I understood the answer was in your question but dunno why. Thank you AllenB for the further explain.



At best it made me think to the aperiodic design which gives a cut off and seen in some sealed band pass sealed bass cabinet...



Now it's certainly a bad claim from me to call that a front chamber... the apex is also huge in relation to the said"chamber" not like an aperiodic bass cabinet where the holes looks like the diameter of a BR port.



With the 1 mm headroom given by JosephCrow...and open in vertical plan due to the eleptic apex he advices... definitly not looks like a front chamber as seen in high effiienty upper bass horn with 8" cone drivers or troncated apex like in an Altec A7 !


@ Joseph Crowe : I simulate the max spl of the Scan Speak 10 FF /8024G00 with two on line calculator 'excursion at Xmax. I chose 2.5 mm from the datasheet marked max linear exursion. 30 Watts (I don't know the maxium short term wattage it can handle) and have different results between 102 db spl at 1 m and 112 db spl at 1 m. May I ask you please what you measured raw?


Yur scanSpeak Elepticor () apex is too much difficult for my skill but how long such horn should measure to add 6dB spl please ? Sorry for the naive question horn world is way above my head, I'm going to download some simulator and read some paper to dive in, but without speak about directivity index and horn shape, is the decibel increase is a ratio between the the surface of the mouth and its distance to the apex (at an already given aperture diameter) ?


Thank you very much guys for yur inputs and sorry for my basic questions... I think it will be a more long term project due to the complexity of the horn/WG approach at the opposit of the first post road map ... it may change into a more expensive but still cheap introduction to active filtering with basic devices (computer I own for instance).


cheers
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Old 16th May 2020, 04:10 AM   #24
Joseph Crowe is offline Joseph Crowe  Canada
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Two Scanspeak 10F drivers would be able to achieve 119dB SPL with a %THD threshold of 1%. I was hitting 122dB across the horn’s bandwidth with my four driver horn for reference.
A very good 2-way bookshelf speaker with a 6” woofer that I tested in the same setup only achieved 95dB before hitting 1% distortion. Expect around 0.2% THD with the Scanspeak horn playing at moderate levels.
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Old 16th May 2020, 11:11 AM   #25
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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Thank you for your answer Joseph Crowe.

95 db peak is very low with good jazz and classical recordings when there are attacks if I understand correctly. It means 20 db headroom at an average 75 db listening level...
In a flat, 115 db transcients seem a good trade off for my limited needs and 95% of my reccordings, so seems if a single 10F per speaker is choosed it really needs a horn to get the best of it...There is no more borring with music than compressed dynamic .... well if you have good recordings, amp and source. And we talk 1 meter, an average listening distance at home is often 3 meters. My only interogation is if it is or not to have distorsion at higher percents on attacks than last 0,1 to 1 seconds?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 12:51 PM   #26
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My main goal about a horn or wave guide for the 87 db sensivity of the Ss 10F8424G00 is spl renforcment for transcients in order to respect the dynamic headroom with the average listening spl level. 95 db spl raw seems to be the level the driver seems to distorss too much, hence this thread.

I have, please, a question about horn loading and efficienty reenforcment in the low end of the horn.
If I draw a horn, whatever the shape philosophy Salmon or OS type, is it valid to think the depth should be minimum half of the wave length of the driver - F3 XO and the mouth width equal to the wave length of this same XO fhz?

For illustration, if I want to XO this driver at 700 hz, wave length is 46 cm so should be the mouth width and 23 cm the depth of the horn ?
How can I predict the new efficienty from the XO fhz of the filter please ? By modelling in hornresp ?

Is it possible to play with the flare in order to reduce the mouth width by increasing the depth of the horn, or is the heigth and width mouth of the horn still rule the angles radiation patern as well? Is the progressive expansion from the throat then rapid flare decay at the mouth will be the more efficient to load and minimizing the foot printnof the horn for a living room area ?

Sorry for the basics questions.

Last edited by diyiggy; 22nd May 2020 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 01:27 PM   #27
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
The 10F in a tractrix has such high sensitivity and good impedance matching to the air in the room that it is very loud. As a result, it moves very little to achieve SPL volumes we normally listen to and is ultra low distortion because the cone barely moves. It is one of the most clear and transparent mids I have heard. The Akabak simulations snow that the cone only moves 40 micrometers to generate 90dB at 1m. There is not much distortion when I come moves less than a human hair diameter.

Presenting the Trynergy - a full range tractrix synergy.

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Old 22nd May 2020, 01:38 PM   #28
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UThank you for the input,
I tried to make your foam horn but wake up due to my poor skills. I really think a synergy is what I needed with this neutral driver despite his default break up in the 2k area in the 8 ohms version, at least on the datasheet. If I draw the throat that Joseph Crow advised, what would you please advise as length and width to acheive 115 db peak without reaching the Xmax ?

The goal of this spl renforcment would permit to marry it with a 15 bass Faital around 700 hz. As far I understand, I do not need to go 1,5 higher than the cut off of the horn for a good loading and spl renforcment for such drivers in its low end...
In an ideal world I assume the horn mouth should be 15" for a smooth XO transition with a 15 inches ? I don't know if feasible though, hence my basic questions.... I don't think the 15pr400 needs to climb higher than 115 db peak for my home needs on transcients... the spl of the faital is 99 db for 2.83 v...anyway will go active 2 way if needed.
At 3m sweet spot, 115 db is more than most of the conventional tower speakers , I'm not a mixer needing 130 db spl peaks as seen in some reccording studios

Last edited by diyiggy; 22nd May 2020 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:53 AM   #29
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
Is it possible to play with the flare in order to reduce the mouth width by increasing the depth of the horn, or is the heigth and width mouth of the horn still rule the angles radiation patern as well?
You should recognise where you are changing from waveguide style to traditional horn. Waveguide offers the most control for the size, if that answers your question.

The depth guideline is aimed more at traditional horns. Also, cutoff is not something that waveguides are very susceptible to.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 03:22 AM   #30
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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Thank you AllenB,

Not sure I understand the full sense of the word "most control" here related to my question about spl/eficienty boost.

Do you mean one can acheive a same spl efficienty increasment with a lower size -in depth direction: mouth to throat- if we use an OS WG patern over a Salmon family horn ?
Then from Xrk971 input and for my limited needs a low depth OS Wave Guide may have enough spl renforcment from 600/700 hz as I don't need the full spl headroom a tractrix gives. In other words : don't mess with horn depth parameter when using an OS WG shape?

Because if the wave guide needs to be greater than 20" width/diameter to boost the spl eficienty as low as 600/700 hz then it's a no go for me.So I assume I need to simulate my spl boost needs with Akabak soft for the real depth (and width) of the WG I need... Anyway I believe to understand the OS WG shape is also easier for matching the lower driver directivity around the XO.

Do I understood you corectly ?

Last edited by diyiggy; 23rd May 2020 at 03:27 AM.
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