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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Treble, how to be good?
Treble, how to be good?
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Old 14th January 2020, 01:02 PM   #1
YSDR is offline YSDR  Hungary
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Default Treble, how to be good?

Hi!

I think I need some help, because I feel frustrated. Where to begin? As the title says, I am not satisfied with my system's high frequency reproduction. When listening, the high frequencies always calls attention to itself over the rest of the range. I can attenuate any part of the high frequencies of the speakers (thanks to the DSP) but then the sound becomes dull, airless etc and still hearing "anomalies" that is not natural to my ears. Like ssss, ccc maybe a little lower frequency thsss. So overall, like a high pitched sibilance

The problem appears in the higher range, clearly not in the crossover region which is acoustical LR4 at 2100Hz now. The worst range is maybe 6-7 kHz and up.

The midrange driver cone-break-up around 4-5 kHz is well attenuated and EQ-ed out (ok, I know the time domain problems of the break-up either), so I don't think that is a problem.

As I sit closer to the speakers for less room effect, the main signature remains unchanged.

The system is a Hypex Fusionamp based 3-way (analogue or digital input, it doesn't matter). The problematic range comes from a pair of Scan-Speak D3004/6600. Previously a SEAS 27TFFC was used which was (audibly) clearly worse than the SS Illuminator but the problematic range was lower in frequency if I remember correctly.

In other (commercial) designs I heard the 6620 version of the Illuminator dome and the sound signature was similar. Even the Classic D2905/9700 was very similar with the overly shiny, fake, piercing top-end (as I heard).

A very good tweeter sound I heard was some B&W metal dome, but the influence of the metal membrane resonance was audible with certain sounds.

Maybe it's possible that I'm overreacting or draw false conclusions but for example the usual Multiplex cinema I go to, I really like the overall sound where nothing sticks out of the soundtrack.

So what can I do to get better treble? Do you think the SS tweeter simply is not for me? I can not think of anything else. But if anyone has any other idea, I'd be happy to.


Thanks!
Denes

Last edited by YSDR; 14th January 2020 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 14th January 2020, 01:06 PM   #2
6L6 is offline 6L6  United States
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Treble, how to be good?
How close to the side walls are your speakers? Are you getting first reflections fast enough that they are being perceived as initial impulse and things are smearing?
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Old 14th January 2020, 01:24 PM   #3
YSDR is offline YSDR  Hungary
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First reflection points on the sidewalls is around 1.5 m, but maybe the front and back wall are the problematic because it's closer (the back) to the listening position and the front (to the speakers) than the side walls. Yeah, I sit next to a longer wall, otherwise it's not possible, even if it's not optimal.

The room RT60 is below 0.4 s at the low frequencies and below 0.3 s at 400 Hz and above.

The first reflection points are treated with diffusers but the treating doesn't did much to the treble especially to the higher range.
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Old 14th January 2020, 04:53 PM   #4
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I think a lot of us have had a hard time with soft dome tweeters.

To the extent of trying cone tweeters like the Monacor HT22:

Click the image to open in full size.

Ring radiators have theoretical advantages too:

Click the image to open in full size.

The waveguide metal SEAS DXT is one I'd like to try too:

Click the image to open in full size.

IMO, any tweeter sounds best 4th order filter above 3kHz. Low order and low crossover point seems to make things worse.
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Old 14th January 2020, 05:27 PM   #5
boswald is offline boswald  United States
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Treble, how to be good?
With DSP you should be able to get some very high order filters, so try at least fourth, and raise your crossover another third octave for comparison(try both points).



Also try isolating problem notes using the DSP equalisation, just keep narrowing the band.



If you still have a problem with all of these very capable tweeters, you should check your hearing for points of high sensitivity.


I myself have two, different notes in each ear, and a loss in one.
It is terribly difficult to test, some online tests can be done at different levels, the doctors are concerned mostly with the lowest levels at which we can hear a note(and voice intelligibility), not what music feels like at normal levels.

Last edited by boswald; 14th January 2020 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 14th January 2020, 05:35 PM   #6
YSDR is offline YSDR  Hungary
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As I said, the problem is not around the crossover region. I started from 2.8 kHz and decided to go lower in 100 Hz steps and ended at 2.1 kHz which sounded the best to me.
Even at far horizontal off-axis I get a good reverse null and not so bad frequency response.

The D3004/6600 produces a significant 2nd harmonic distortion peak around 7 kHz, maybe that is the point where the dome begins to sound not so good, just guessing.
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Old 14th January 2020, 05:37 PM   #7
picowallspeaker is offline picowallspeaker  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
I think a lot of us have had a hard time with soft dome tweeters.

[/
Now get prepared to this new century of digital divide ( between the ears and the brain )

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Old 14th January 2020, 05:43 PM   #8
boswald is offline boswald  United States
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Treble, how to be good?
I was not suggesting moving the crossover point for what happens in that region.


Removing a few notes at the bottom can change the behavior higher up.
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Old 14th January 2020, 05:47 PM   #9
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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A soft dome tweeter goes into breakup at around 6kHz. That's it really. You can see it in the phase response:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Quote:
Atkinson: But can't you add damping to control the dome breakup, or use a material which has high intrinsic damping?

Marshall: Yes, but the damping makes things worse. You look at a soft-dome's frequency response—and that's how most people judge a tweeter—and if it's nice and flat, it's wonderful, isn't it? What it's not telling you is that the first worrying resonance, the second resonance, may be at 6kHz. It's heavily damped, it's very low-Q, but that means it's actually worse than if it's an aluminum dome. If you looked at it in the old-fashioned way of judging hi-fi in the 1970s and early 1980s, a low-Q resonance is great because you can't see it. But a low-Q resonance is far more worrying than a high-Q resonance.
Robin Marshall: A Modicum of Genius Page 4 | Stereophile.com
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Old 14th January 2020, 06:14 PM   #10
YSDR is offline YSDR  Hungary
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To be honest my two D3004/6600 have a not so nice bump around 6-7 khz (like the 2nd harmonic peak) in the frequency response which I lowered with the DSP to get flat response. However a slight ridge remained in the CSD graph at that point.

These drivers clearly not have the same frequency response as in the data sheets, and not because of baffle diffraction, that's sure.
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