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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Best way to balance speaker for a flat response
Best way to balance speaker for a flat response
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:17 PM   #111
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
My personal experience with measurements and multiway-dsp speakers has teached me to
I mostly agree with your post, but high Q correction is not as bad as people say, if the listening point is fixed, and if one wants to hear true to the source reproduction.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:24 PM   #112
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Harman has concluded that people prefer a slight HF rolloff, especially for CD sources, and a slight bass boost.
I have never read this before. I thought tilting response is mostly due to the circle of confusion, and CD or vinyl does not matter.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:38 PM   #113
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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He is talking about tilted power response curve for constant directivity loudspeakers. Not tilted frequency measurement on axis.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:48 PM   #114
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Originally Posted by plasnu View Post
I mostly agree with your post, but high Q correction is not as bad as people say, if the listening point is fixed, and if one wants to hear true to the source reproduction.
I think the only time high Q correction may be ok is if it's correcting a high Q anomaly in the speaker.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:57 PM   #115
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Originally Posted by plasnu View Post
I mostly agree with your post, but high Q correction is not as bad as people say, if the listening point is fixed, and if one wants to hear true to the source reproduction.
Actually I don't totally ban room eq, but I don't see it necessary always. Small rooms with concrete walls often need that. My small HT room has a terrible suckout at spot, but that cannot be eq'd in the first place...
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:22 PM   #116
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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I do high Q dip below 200Hz for a few dB, and it subjectively has a positive effect. The real problem is, it is easy to overdo EQ trying to make the frequency response look flat at one mic position.

Yeah, we can't fix dip anyway. High Q boost is always no no.

Last edited by plasnu; 17th August 2019 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:36 PM   #117
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by bradleypnw View Post
Ah, so I was wrong. It's time exposure and brain processing.
That's my take.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:37 PM   #118
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by Zvu View Post
He is talking about tilted power response curve for constant directivity loudspeakers. Not tilted frequency measurement on axis.
But if the system is CD, then tilting the power means tilting the axial as well.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:41 PM   #119
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by plasnu View Post
I do high Q dip below 200Hz for a few dB, and it subjectively has a positive effect. The real problem is, it is easy to overdo EQ trying to make the frequency response look flat at one mic position.

Yeah, we can't fix dip anyway. High Q boost is always no no.
The trouble with this test is that almost any change is initially viewed as positive. This is an inherent built in bias that people have. In tests, people prefered when the light level was raised, preferred it again, and then prefered it when it was lowered. They just like the change.

I did this exact same test with a loudspeaker crossover change. Change - better - change again - better, change back to the original - better still. Its just one big circle.

It takes a lot of work to determine what subjective perceptions are real and what aren't. Simple test rarely work. Harman does this very well. Very few others do.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:44 PM   #120
mitchba is offline mitchba  Canada
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Re: Downward tilt of measured in-room response from Floyd Toole:

A preference for a downward tilting steady-state room curve is the result of two things:
1. beginning with my very first double-blind listening tests in the late 1960s, through the detailed tests in my 1985-86 JAES papers, continuing to this date, the highest rated loudspeakers have had the smoothest, flattest on-axis anechoic response. This is the direct sound.
2. The normal forward-firing configurations of drivers inevitably start out as omnidirectional at low frequencies, becoming progressively more directional at higher frequencies. The rising bass energy yields a steady-state room curve with a downward tilt.
Ref: NORMS AND STANDARDS FOR DISCOURSE ON ASR | Page 7 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Sean Olive also wrote about this when comparing room correction products: Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products and PDF presentation: The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products.pdf - Google Drive

The money shot is on slide 24 and a very interesting phenomena about how we perceive in-room frequency response on slide 25. The tilted in-room response is perceived by our ears/brain as flat or neutral. Exploring this a bit more, I wrote a section on this called, "The Science of Preferred Frequency Responses for Headphones and Loudspeakers" and peer reviewed by Sean Olive.

Wrt room eq, from Floyd Toole, "it is now widely accepted that in-room measurements and EQ are beneficial at low frequencies, and that reasonably high frequency resolution is necessary to address room modes." Why don't all speaker manufacturers design for flat on-axis and smooth off-axis? | Page 17 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

I use room eq below 500 Hz given my sig. I also use constant directivity wavegides, which require constant directivity horn eq to compensate.

My experiments show that room eq is good at multiple mic locations, including time alignment of drivers and not just at one mic position. Finally, broad band tilting tone control to adjust to a similar in-room target response as described in the articles above.
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