Barney,
There are a lot of very good wide ranging suggestions here for you, but that is sort of a problem. They go from a singe full range driver in a simple cabinet to a complex line array, and include all kinds of different geometries in between.
I'm somewhat of a novice at this myself, but have spent a lot of time investigating different designs. And my suggestion would be start with something very simple in the form a well established design and proven kit that includes everything you need except the cabinet. It will also include detailed cabinet plans, which will allow you to immediately start building without having to figure out anything yourself.
Complete kits are available from several dependable sources including Meniscus Audio, Madisound, and Parts Express. Most kits have been well developed and built in sufficient quantity to still be carried by these companies. I would stick with kits developed by one of the well recognized designers such as Paul Carmody, Jeff Bagby, or Curt Campbell. Those aren't the only good designers, but you probably can't go wrong with any of their work.
And you'll have no problem finding good choices while still staying within your $500 budget.
I recently built a pair of Jeff Bagby's Piccolo speakers and couldn't be happier with them. The sound quality actually exceeds my expectations.
The cost for the entire kit including all the drivers, hardware, and fully assembled and tested crossovers was around $450 including shipping from Meniscus.
I'm not suggesting that this is the only good choice in that price range, but I think it is certainly a very good one.
My main suggestion, however, is to start with something very simple and don't try to do any of the design yourself. It may look easy to try your own hand at it, but I seriously doubt that it will sound anywhere near as good as one of these well proven kits.
Finally with regard to material, I agree with you on MDF. I won't allow it my shop except for when absolutely necessary and that is not very often. Many of us use Baltic Birch plywood instead and that's what I do. Solid wood is generally not use because many people believe it resonates more than multilayered plywood. But don't use cheap construction plywood. Make sure it's imported Baltic Birch.
Good luck and have fun.
There are a lot of very good wide ranging suggestions here for you, but that is sort of a problem. They go from a singe full range driver in a simple cabinet to a complex line array, and include all kinds of different geometries in between.
I'm somewhat of a novice at this myself, but have spent a lot of time investigating different designs. And my suggestion would be start with something very simple in the form a well established design and proven kit that includes everything you need except the cabinet. It will also include detailed cabinet plans, which will allow you to immediately start building without having to figure out anything yourself.
Complete kits are available from several dependable sources including Meniscus Audio, Madisound, and Parts Express. Most kits have been well developed and built in sufficient quantity to still be carried by these companies. I would stick with kits developed by one of the well recognized designers such as Paul Carmody, Jeff Bagby, or Curt Campbell. Those aren't the only good designers, but you probably can't go wrong with any of their work.
And you'll have no problem finding good choices while still staying within your $500 budget.
I recently built a pair of Jeff Bagby's Piccolo speakers and couldn't be happier with them. The sound quality actually exceeds my expectations.
The cost for the entire kit including all the drivers, hardware, and fully assembled and tested crossovers was around $450 including shipping from Meniscus.
I'm not suggesting that this is the only good choice in that price range, but I think it is certainly a very good one.
My main suggestion, however, is to start with something very simple and don't try to do any of the design yourself. It may look easy to try your own hand at it, but I seriously doubt that it will sound anywhere near as good as one of these well proven kits.
Finally with regard to material, I agree with you on MDF. I won't allow it my shop except for when absolutely necessary and that is not very often. Many of us use Baltic Birch plywood instead and that's what I do. Solid wood is generally not use because many people believe it resonates more than multilayered plywood. But don't use cheap construction plywood. Make sure it's imported Baltic Birch.
Good luck and have fun.
Well there are many kinds of "simple" I can't make boxes for love or money My woodworking skills suck but I find cross-overs relatively easy in comparison. One of my reasons for liking the Tarkus is the extremely simple cross-over [ in real terms] but I'm one of those who prefer fewer components and smooth well behaved drivers so happy with less detail than many. I also like electronic XOs/ digital XOs and multi amplifier solutions and huge subwoofers if possible. Many permutations on the definition of "simple" but also I have worn out at least 3 vinyl recordings of the Tarkus album and I have one clean and almost new disc left and to understand the speaker you need to listen to the album or maybe the other way around
the fact that Nelson Pass who is a legend in the class A amp design field and has been exposed to everything the audio industry has to offer, has paid tribute to the late Siegfried by making an analog Xover for LX Minis should tell you A LOT.
another hint: I am a big Pass fan but you are better off with the latest (HD version) of the miniDSP digital Xover because it comes with the master (digital) volume control (assuming that your 5-channel amp would not have one). At 24bit you can afford to loose some with a digital vol control until/if you decide to make an analog attenuator (I have had it on my bench for 2 years now and could not bring myself to finish it since I did not feel the need with a digital master vol control on a 4x10Hd Xover, so you are safe with my advice).
p.s. take your time and also check the background (search posts) on different people giving you advice to get an idea of their background/experience since every one brings something different to the table.
cheers
another hint: I am a big Pass fan but you are better off with the latest (HD version) of the miniDSP digital Xover because it comes with the master (digital) volume control (assuming that your 5-channel amp would not have one). At 24bit you can afford to loose some with a digital vol control until/if you decide to make an analog attenuator (I have had it on my bench for 2 years now and could not bring myself to finish it since I did not feel the need with a digital master vol control on a 4x10Hd Xover, so you are safe with my advice).
p.s. take your time and also check the background (search posts) on different people giving you advice to get an idea of their background/experience since every one brings something different to the table.
cheers
Solid wood speakers can be fine, but you need to know what you ar edoing. AFAIC MDF is not suitable for speakers either — unless it is a case of use MDF or nothing.
Good plywood (BB or something like MurphyPly) are typically more stable, and more consistent. Bamboo plywood is very good (best is the stranded varieties, the vertical is OK) and has some of the same kind of pluses as using solid.
The main reason is cost. COst to buy, cost to use. And an impressive marketing campaign that has left even otherwise competent speaker designers to use it.
For solid speakers, boards made up of staves like a cutting board are better.
dave
Thanks so much for your advice!
Was coming back today to edit my original post and post some new information.
A feel bad that I didn’t say this at The very beginning of my thread!
I have always been more of a fan of the most simplistic designs. I’ve made a longer post about it below. But You are exactly right!
Thanks so much for your reply and your thoughts.
Update and apology
Thank you all for your continued replies! It’s great how you all have a wealth of knowledge and a passion for audio! I continue to print the new information given, and it’s becoming obvious to me...... Im going to build more than one set of speakers.
I am going to edit my original post… and should have stated this from the beginning. It’s gotten a bit confusing, because I originally started the thread on Reddit, and was sent here. I’ve gotten a bit confused about my threads and replies… And left out a bit of information.
I LOVE SIMPLE DESIGNS!!!. All of my vintage reproduction amp are the most simple and classic designs ever manufactured. Don’t get me wrong, innovation is important, but I always try to tackle classic & timeless designs, before moving onto anything groundbreaking or modern. More often than not, I find so much passion in the classics, I never move on to anything modern. I’ve used this method in all areas of life and business.
When I first started building guitars, in my early high school years… I wanted to start with wild and crazy exotics… tacky inlay… And bright finishes. But after a few years of experimenting , and as I was exposed to timeless classic designs… I began to love and appreciate the simpler things. As the years pass, I prefer instruments reduced to their purest forms.
When I got serious about building electric guitars, I focused on the early telecasters & Les Paul‘s In their simplest form. I did this to learn, and So I could move on to the wild and crazy things. But as I built I saw the beauty in them, and began stripping them down to their barest examples.
Then six years later, when I began building acoustic guitars… I started with the vintage reproduction, “bottom of the barrel“ inexpensive designs of the past. The stuff offered by Gibson and Martin in the early 1900s and through the depression, using less expensive woods, while still maintaining great form and quality. And I argue that their less expensive instruments are some of the best Guitars ever made! I love the fancy prewar Brazilian Rosewood Martin’s as much as the next guy… but they’re all mahogany top back and sides models are crafted equally well.
The same thing happened when I began building violins a few years later… I started with one particularly famous but simple model. Of the few dozen or so I’ve built I learn more each time, & I will build using that form until I understand it.
I don’t mean to ramble on… But at least for me,, I learn and appreciate a design when I can strip it down to its plainest example.
Thank you all again so much!
Thank you all for your continued replies! It’s great how you all have a wealth of knowledge and a passion for audio! I continue to print the new information given, and it’s becoming obvious to me...... Im going to build more than one set of speakers.
I am going to edit my original post… and should have stated this from the beginning. It’s gotten a bit confusing, because I originally started the thread on Reddit, and was sent here. I’ve gotten a bit confused about my threads and replies… And left out a bit of information.
I LOVE SIMPLE DESIGNS!!!. All of my vintage reproduction amp are the most simple and classic designs ever manufactured. Don’t get me wrong, innovation is important, but I always try to tackle classic & timeless designs, before moving onto anything groundbreaking or modern. More often than not, I find so much passion in the classics, I never move on to anything modern. I’ve used this method in all areas of life and business.
When I first started building guitars, in my early high school years… I wanted to start with wild and crazy exotics… tacky inlay… And bright finishes. But after a few years of experimenting , and as I was exposed to timeless classic designs… I began to love and appreciate the simpler things. As the years pass, I prefer instruments reduced to their purest forms.
When I got serious about building electric guitars, I focused on the early telecasters & Les Paul‘s In their simplest form. I did this to learn, and So I could move on to the wild and crazy things. But as I built I saw the beauty in them, and began stripping them down to their barest examples.
Then six years later, when I began building acoustic guitars… I started with the vintage reproduction, “bottom of the barrel“ inexpensive designs of the past. The stuff offered by Gibson and Martin in the early 1900s and through the depression, using less expensive woods, while still maintaining great form and quality. And I argue that their less expensive instruments are some of the best Guitars ever made! I love the fancy prewar Brazilian Rosewood Martin’s as much as the next guy… but they’re all mahogany top back and sides models are crafted equally well.
The same thing happened when I began building violins a few years later… I started with one particularly famous but simple model. Of the few dozen or so I’ve built I learn more each time, & I will build using that form until I understand it.
I don’t mean to ramble on… But at least for me,, I learn and appreciate a design when I can strip it down to its plainest example.
Thank you all again so much!
Barney, What are you trying to do?
Do you want small bookshelf speakers?
Do you want Floorstanders?
Do you want a single driver Horn speaker?
Do you want Cheap drivers for a plop in a box?
Do you want uber expensive or mid range priced drivers?
Lots of questions need to be answered before moving forward.
Do you want small bookshelf speakers?
Do you want Floorstanders?
Do you want a single driver Horn speaker?
Do you want Cheap drivers for a plop in a box?
Do you want uber expensive or mid range priced drivers?
Lots of questions need to be answered before moving forward.
Thank you for your reply and for asking clear direct questions. I’m sorry I haven’t provided enough information. This is all foreign to me, And like all complex topics… I’m increasingly confused the more I read.
I don’t have a lot of room, so I would like to keep it small if possible. However there must be some middle ground in the size and the sound quality. Bookshelf speakers are a nice idea, however I don’t know if that would suffice. Originally I thought about something similar in size to a small guitar amplifier. Especially if I covered it in tweed… It would fit in my handtool workshop perfectly. I try not to be picky, but I’ve worked in so many moldy basements, leaky buildings, even rigged up storage units… then finally built my dream workshop. It’s two separate workshops built on to my home similar to a 4 car garage. Most of it is my power tool workshop and metal Machine shop. But I built on a small 12 x 20‘ room, That actually connected to our home similar to a “sunroom” or something. Like I said before, it’s hardwood floor, hardwood ceiling, fancy crown molding, I designed it as a fine woodworking area, and it stays meticulously clean. I took the designs from the old violin workshops of the 1700’s, and try to keep it simple and empty as possible. That’s why I am putting such an emphasis on footprint and appearance. Every piece in my small workshop was built by myself, using hand tools, even down to the crown molding and window trim. I’m normally not a picky person, and the most expensive set of speakers I will eventually build… Will be for my large power tool workshop. I’m sure they will be expensive, they will need to be powerful, and I’ll probably just spray them with truck bed liner.
My budget (as stated in the first post)… Is around $500. I have all the lumber, high-grade plywood‘s, and expendable materials available in my workshop. So things like veneer, glues, finishes, and even electronic components don’t have to be in that budget. I must have every capacitor known to man! Well that is an exaggeration… But I do have many cabinets full of high-grade components. It’s becoming apparent that I will be building more than one set of speakers. I think I’ll order a few of the inexpensive kits from parts express or meniscus. Maybe even those with pre-made cabinets.
I can assemble several kits in an afternoon or two. Just to get my feet wet and hear them. I might leave them stock or apply a simple veneer. And as we narrow down the design in this thread… And I get a little practice with the inexpensive kits… I can build the nicer set that I plan on keeping.
The cheaper speaker kits would be interesting to hear, and compare with the “keeper set“.
And they would make great gifts for close friends and family at Christmas time.
I don’t mean to ramble on again, and I understand if you don’t read all of this.
Just trying to get my thoughts down on paper.
I don’t have a lot of room, so I would like to keep it small if possible. However there must be some middle ground in the size and the sound quality. Bookshelf speakers are a nice idea, however I don’t know if that would suffice. Originally I thought about something similar in size to a small guitar amplifier. Especially if I covered it in tweed… It would fit in my handtool workshop perfectly. I try not to be picky, but I’ve worked in so many moldy basements, leaky buildings, even rigged up storage units… then finally built my dream workshop. It’s two separate workshops built on to my home similar to a 4 car garage. Most of it is my power tool workshop and metal Machine shop. But I built on a small 12 x 20‘ room, That actually connected to our home similar to a “sunroom” or something. Like I said before, it’s hardwood floor, hardwood ceiling, fancy crown molding, I designed it as a fine woodworking area, and it stays meticulously clean. I took the designs from the old violin workshops of the 1700’s, and try to keep it simple and empty as possible. That’s why I am putting such an emphasis on footprint and appearance. Every piece in my small workshop was built by myself, using hand tools, even down to the crown molding and window trim. I’m normally not a picky person, and the most expensive set of speakers I will eventually build… Will be for my large power tool workshop. I’m sure they will be expensive, they will need to be powerful, and I’ll probably just spray them with truck bed liner.
My budget (as stated in the first post)… Is around $500. I have all the lumber, high-grade plywood‘s, and expendable materials available in my workshop. So things like veneer, glues, finishes, and even electronic components don’t have to be in that budget. I must have every capacitor known to man! Well that is an exaggeration… But I do have many cabinets full of high-grade components. It’s becoming apparent that I will be building more than one set of speakers. I think I’ll order a few of the inexpensive kits from parts express or meniscus. Maybe even those with pre-made cabinets.
I can assemble several kits in an afternoon or two. Just to get my feet wet and hear them. I might leave them stock or apply a simple veneer. And as we narrow down the design in this thread… And I get a little practice with the inexpensive kits… I can build the nicer set that I plan on keeping.
The cheaper speaker kits would be interesting to hear, and compare with the “keeper set“.
And they would make great gifts for close friends and family at Christmas time.
I don’t mean to ramble on again, and I understand if you don’t read all of this.
Just trying to get my thoughts down on paper.
Getting started trying it out and moving on is how diy works. My question would be about the kind of coverage of your space works for you; a primary work station at your bench or more omni coverage of the whole room. Have fun! And if the boxes, which do not have to be rectilinear, are not too big then solid wood can work just fine. I have examples from Ampex and Eico of solid walnut except front and back baffles. Google AR-MST for an example of a configuration that might work for you.
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you are certainly a handyman, a builder, and a generous man.
You are tempted to build a loudspeaker, for fun of the woodwork, however, the speaker is the most difficult thing to do well... if amplifiers were not subjective enough, loudspeakers are even more...
The best thing that happened to me is that I listened to a lot of speakers, from all prices, without any discrimination, then I set my mind of buying the speaker which sounded the best to me...
Then I had a benchmark at home, to evaluate, to measure frequency, noise (yes, noise, is a value measured as well as THD 2n, 3rd, etc...) noise is super important, even more than THD. And I could figure out which frequency response sounded good, what was the key for a good smooth sound.
It is not capacitors, XO type, hifi parts, wires, super crazy amps, nothing like the sort, it is a precise extremely complex mix of parameters which are otherwise impossible to see.
So unless you can have in your hands the sound that you want, you wont be able to replicate anything close to what you like, there will be something off all the time.
ps this is why i never bought any kits, I bought speakers, then I built my own kits. There is nothing wrong going with kits, just very scary to spend 500$on something you don't know if you will like... ps2 I am a huge sinner there.
You are tempted to build a loudspeaker, for fun of the woodwork, however, the speaker is the most difficult thing to do well... if amplifiers were not subjective enough, loudspeakers are even more...
The best thing that happened to me is that I listened to a lot of speakers, from all prices, without any discrimination, then I set my mind of buying the speaker which sounded the best to me...
Then I had a benchmark at home, to evaluate, to measure frequency, noise (yes, noise, is a value measured as well as THD 2n, 3rd, etc...) noise is super important, even more than THD. And I could figure out which frequency response sounded good, what was the key for a good smooth sound.
It is not capacitors, XO type, hifi parts, wires, super crazy amps, nothing like the sort, it is a precise extremely complex mix of parameters which are otherwise impossible to see.
So unless you can have in your hands the sound that you want, you wont be able to replicate anything close to what you like, there will be something off all the time.
ps this is why i never bought any kits, I bought speakers, then I built my own kits. There is nothing wrong going with kits, just very scary to spend 500$on something you don't know if you will like... ps2 I am a huge sinner there.
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I don't know why you would bother with the kits, when it's obvious you have the skill to build from scratch. Why not try something in the 4-5" single driver category as a first build? With a single driver, there's no crossover to deal with, just build the enclosure, and wire the driver to a terminal. Maybe one of Dave's bookshelf sized MarKen boxes with the Alpair A7.3, or Pluvia 7.
jeff
The OP likes a particular heavy metal band, there really isn't a single driver speaker that can give the bass and impact needed for heavy metal and not sound muddy at the SPL usually used to listen to such bands. Personal opinion only mind. Kits are useful for people with no experience choosing drivers and designing crossovers but I think the OP is a bit further advanced than that
The biggest problem with kits is that it's hard to mix and match with woofers you may like and tweeters that may be a bit cheaper. just got done reviewing some kits and will list some that fit into your budget. Also, given the budget I'm assuming a simple two way and not an MTM design.
given budget and flexibility here are my picks.
1) Seas Idunn 2-Way Speaker Kit
Seas Idunn 2-Way Speaker Kit - Pair - Parts Only
2) Zaph|Audio SR71 Kit
Zaph|Audio SR71 Kit - Pair - Parts Only
3) Adelphos, Bare Bones Speaker Kit
Adelphos, Bare Bones Speaker Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
I don't know if there's a kit for the sb17 aluminum driver with sb metal dome tweeter so maybe somebody has a link to a pre-made crossover that works with pre-designed baffle and enclosure dimensions. you could always have madisound or meniscus design a crossover for some drivers that may interest you. Hope this helps.
In reading through some of your posts I get the impression that these speakers are intended for a workshop environment and you might not be sitting in one place, but instead moving around as you work. If that is the case it puts a whole new set of demands on the speaker design in terms of dispersion characteristics. The other major factor is the room itself. It determines about one-half of what you hear. And as you move around the sound can change dramatically. Particularly the bass.
And I still highly recommend starting with a kit from one of the well recognized designers. I'm really surprised that some here are recommending otherwise. I don't understand how they think you can achieve a better sound than a proven design without any prior experience. You would be lucky if you even get close on your first try.
Adelphos (15 liters - 6.5" Satori woofer) is an excellent choice, but a little above his budget at $665 for the pair.
Staying under $500 I would suggest Mandolin (15 liters - 6.7" woofer) or Piccolo (7 liters - 5.9" woofer). As I posted previously, I'm very pleased with the Piccolo. Particularly for a speaker of that size.
No point in spending money on quality, low distortion drivers used in these suggested speaker kits if the goal is to listen to heavy metal. These are designed for quality sound with finesse and subtle detail, not blasting out intentionally distorted guitars at high SPL levels.
I don’t know of any kit that is specifically designed for heavy metal. Maybe there is one, but I wouldn’t know.
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