Back in January I ordered 4 RS225-8's, 4 NE123W's and the rest of the goodies and built a set of statement II towers. I love the sound of the setup and the RS225's, but I wish they handled a little more power. I do not have any Subwoofers in this setup, so the low end is not crossed over. Songs like Awolnation, Sail, can make the RS225's distort from excursion. Granted this happens at stupid volume levels, but sometimes we all need a few minutes of stupid.
So my question is; does anyone have a recommendation for a fairly considerable upgrade in power and low frequency handling that would be a direct replacement to the RS225's? I.E. similar enclosure volume requirements, and definitely very close in diameter as the boxes are obviously made and completed. My crossover between the lows and mid/highs is digital, so I'm not too worried about matching the frequency response, as long as they go high enough to meet the NE123W's. I appreciate any input, advice and recommendations.
Thank You,
RP
So my question is; does anyone have a recommendation for a fairly considerable upgrade in power and low frequency handling that would be a direct replacement to the RS225's? I.E. similar enclosure volume requirements, and definitely very close in diameter as the boxes are obviously made and completed. My crossover between the lows and mid/highs is digital, so I'm not too worried about matching the frequency response, as long as they go high enough to meet the NE123W's. I appreciate any input, advice and recommendations.
Thank You,
RP
Your boxes are vented and tuned to 24 Hz. The song 'Sail' has got strong output at 42 Hz and some less strong at 35 Hz, which both are in the power dip region of the vented box. This dip is deep because the box appears to be a bit oversized and tuned lower than what would give a flat response. One way to increase mechanical power handling is by increasing the tuning frequency and adding a high pass filter. Then a separate subwoofer is required for frequencies below the new tuning frequency. The attached image shows excursion limited SPL for your current 24 Hz (blue) and a new 35 Hz (orange) tuning frequency. At 40 Hz sound output is 8 dB higher for the 35 Hz tuning, at 35 Hz it's 13 dB. Be aware that electrical power handling will be limiting, because power dissipation is high around the tuning frequency and excursion and therefore cooling is low.
Four high excursion 8" woofers will be expensive. What is your budget?
Four high excursion 8" woofers will be expensive. What is your budget?
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I'd like to be around $500 for all 4, or less obviously. I have 2 HSU subs in the room that I use with my HT setup, but I don't really know how I can integrate them. I'd need a switching device for the sub amp, and another way to x-over them in. My preference would definitely be to stay stereo only with the Statements if I can make it happen.
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Adason, I have 1 amp driving the mids and highs with a passive Xover between them. Then I have another amp driving all 4 8" woofers with a digital xover blending them with the high/mid amp. So that part will be easy, no components to buy or change. I just need the new woofers to perform in the existing enclosure and hole cutout .
Don't get me wrong about the RS225's, they sound great, especially for the very reasonable cost. They even measure well in my testing, they just can't handle the kind of power I like from time to time, that includes my prefered room curve with 3-5db boost in the lower frequencies. I find zero fault in the drivers themselves.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 8PR155
Well, most of faitalpro are listed as 200 watts continuous, 400 watts music, at 93-95 dB sensitivity, four of them should be able to shake the room quite well with little distortion.
Well, most of faitalpro are listed as 200 watts continuous, 400 watts music, at 93-95 dB sensitivity, four of them should be able to shake the room quite well with little distortion.
No, I haven't tried to close the port, it's massive, 9" if I recall. It's a well designed and tested setup, fairly popular DIY build. It was certainly designed by someone brighter than me at this type of thing. I looked at the 8" you linked, power handling is great, but they seem more like midwoofers, 60-6000Hz. Those would only work if I added my subs.
The RS225 already has 7mm of one way excursion which fairly decent. Probably every 8" driver you will find with significantly more xmax than this will have much lower sensitivity and horrible midrange performance (not sure how high the statements II runs them?) because they will be designed as subwoofers.
For instance the Dayton RSS210HO-8 has 12mm xmax which nets you 5-6dB however now the sensitivity is 3.3dB worse and you can bet that the midrange distortion is much worse. The spider probably does not support near double the excursion compared to the RS225 either so you will get even less than 5-6dB before you reach the same distortion level.
Honestly I think you should leave the statements alone and build two dedicated 12" subwoofers with xmax >10mm. Either that or heavily stuff the box to keep the excursion under control and deal with having less bass extension.
For instance the Dayton RSS210HO-8 has 12mm xmax which nets you 5-6dB however now the sensitivity is 3.3dB worse and you can bet that the midrange distortion is much worse. The spider probably does not support near double the excursion compared to the RS225 either so you will get even less than 5-6dB before you reach the same distortion level.
Honestly I think you should leave the statements alone and build two dedicated 12" subwoofers with xmax >10mm. Either that or heavily stuff the box to keep the excursion under control and deal with having less bass extension.
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Here's an option that will require reducing the cabinet height a bit and sealing them. The cabinet drawing is on Curt's website.
The ones pictured were done by a good friend of mine back in 2008 and he still won't part with them.
The crossover from the RS225's to the mids is about 375 Hz. so the lowest midrange is shared by the RS225's. I assume you followed the passive crossover point with your active for the bass. A pair of 15" Ultimax with a 50-60 Hz. active crossover would work well for reinforcement when you want to get super loud. If you need more xmax than the Ultimax, get out your wallet because it will cost a lot of money.
HTH
Jim
The ones pictured were done by a good friend of mine back in 2008 and he still won't part with them.
The crossover from the RS225's to the mids is about 375 Hz. so the lowest midrange is shared by the RS225's. I assume you followed the passive crossover point with your active for the bass. A pair of 15" Ultimax with a 50-60 Hz. active crossover would work well for reinforcement when you want to get super loud. If you need more xmax than the Ultimax, get out your wallet because it will cost a lot of money.
HTH
Jim
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I did cross them over at spec with the spec slope. I want to say that was 24db at about 350ish. I actually have the passive crossover components for the lows and originally had them installed. I went with the active setup after taking measurements from my seating position after I completed them. I was seeing phase issues and wanted to tune in some delay on the high/mids, and I happened to have a good spare amp available. Anyway, adding 2 subs will make this a much bigger project than hoped, but it might be the right idea. If I bump the budget to $200/woofer, still no stand out drivers in anyone's mind? I was looking at some Seas in the $200 ballpark, I believe they were 29-1000Hz, 100w+ RMS, 250 peak. I'll have to look again. I looked at a few Seas's some seemed within price sanity. The Morel's and Scanspeaks were crazy expensive, $300-400 per.
If I keep hunting; since sensitivity, phase/timing, and passive crossover component matching are all non-issue in my case, what is the most relevant specification to match with the RS225, which parameters pertain to enclosure size? Qms, Qts, Vas? These acronym's confuse me.
If I keep hunting; since sensitivity, phase/timing, and passive crossover component matching are all non-issue in my case, what is the most relevant specification to match with the RS225, which parameters pertain to enclosure size? Qms, Qts, Vas? These acronym's confuse me.
If you are not willing to give up on low frequency extension, xmax must be significantly higher than 7 mm. Otherwise it won't get louder.
If all they have to do is play up to 350 Hz, then maybe subwoofer drivers will also work. A high, non-constant (both with voice coil current and cone position) inductance is a cause of midrange distortion. Subwoofers tend to have high inductances and cone breakup at relatively low frequencies, so most of them won't work well.
The RSS210HO which TMM mentioned has shorting rings, so inductance is moderate and close to constant with cone position. Any well designed driver should have a constant inductance with voice coil current. Cone breakup starts around 3 kHz which is fine. If you crank it, low frequencies will make the coil leave the linear part of the motor, deteriorating midrange sound quality. But only if you crank it.
Personally I don't think it is worth replacing the woofers. The example RSS210HO will cost you about $500 for an improvement of only a few dB.
If all they have to do is play up to 350 Hz, then maybe subwoofer drivers will also work. A high, non-constant (both with voice coil current and cone position) inductance is a cause of midrange distortion. Subwoofers tend to have high inductances and cone breakup at relatively low frequencies, so most of them won't work well.
The RSS210HO which TMM mentioned has shorting rings, so inductance is moderate and close to constant with cone position. Any well designed driver should have a constant inductance with voice coil current. Cone breakup starts around 3 kHz which is fine. If you crank it, low frequencies will make the coil leave the linear part of the motor, deteriorating midrange sound quality. But only if you crank it.
Personally I don't think it is worth replacing the woofers. The example RSS210HO will cost you about $500 for an improvement of only a few dB.
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TBTL, you might be onto something with the subwoofer idea. What about this thought I just had; get 2 high power handling 8" subwoofers and make the towers a 4-way. Replace just the bottom 8" with a sub, so the better sounding 225's are closer to ear level. Do a gradual crossover to just drop a few db below say 50-70Hz from the 225s and bump a few db below that crossover point to compensate. If I don't like how it turns out, I'll only be out the reasonable cost of 2 8" subs and I can put things right back. Any reason this is a crap idea?
I meant replace 1 RS225 in each box, the bottom driver, with a 8" sub and xover the rs225 with the new sub appropriately. Drop a few db at the very bottom (50-60Hz) from the RS225 to prevent excursion limits, while bupming the 8" sub a few db at the very bottom to compensate. Basically go to a 4-way. My issue with adding subs externally is space. I have 14 speakers in this room now, a complete Atmos theatre setup and this, my music setup.
Replacing two of the rs225s will only be half as good as replacing all four, and we already established that you can only gain another couple db headroom by doing that because 8"woofers with twice the linear excursion capability of the rs225 don't exist. The key word being linear. If you find an 8" with 14mm xmax, if the suspension is not twice as large as an rs225, then it will make about as much distortion at 7mm as the rs225 and be much less sensitive requiring a total redesign of the entire crossover, so it's a waste of time. The rs225 already has about as much excursion as is useful in an 8" frame size.
To get say +6db at the same distortion you need to double the linear displacement capability of your system. Four rs225 per channel, or a single much larger subwoofer per channel. A 12" sub might only have a bit more cone area than two 8", but it has a much better chance of actually being linear at twice the excursion because the spider and surround can be much larger. If you had stereo 12 or 15" subs you might get +6db at the same distortion.
By far the easiest, most elegant and waf-approved solution is to not turn them up to stupid levels. A system with four 8s is more capable than what 99% of the population listen with. Save your hearing and poor speakers from destruction
To get say +6db at the same distortion you need to double the linear displacement capability of your system. Four rs225 per channel, or a single much larger subwoofer per channel. A 12" sub might only have a bit more cone area than two 8", but it has a much better chance of actually being linear at twice the excursion because the spider and surround can be much larger. If you had stereo 12 or 15" subs you might get +6db at the same distortion.
By far the easiest, most elegant and waf-approved solution is to not turn them up to stupid levels. A system with four 8s is more capable than what 99% of the population listen with. Save your hearing and poor speakers from destruction
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Just a quick follow up, I replaced all 4 yesterday with Peerless 850136 CSX 217 H 8" drivers. They claim to handle twice the RMS power of the rs225's and the F3, box requirements were similar. I don't have any results to speak of yet, breaking them in a little and need to redo my phase delays and level measurements etc as the Peerless have better sensitivity. I think they certainly look better, I was not a fan of the pointed cones on the RS225's, not that driver looks really matter all that much.
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