One solution is to put another driver of an intermediate size between a 6.5" driver and a tweeter - say a 2" dome mid then cross at say 700Hz and 3kHz. Another is to substitute the 6.5" driver with something smaller (~4.5") and have your bass driver play higher - perhaps 400Hz instead of 250Hz. This goes against the idea to get one driver playing as wide a frequency range as possible however. Everything is a compromise in one way or another - just gotta pick your battles
I kinda want to stick the 6,5" mainly because of that last part. 250 Hz is the absolute highest crossover frequency I can take with my woofers. The first resonant frequency is at about 289 Hz and I'm not using usual woofers, I'm using two 8" SB-Acoustics SB23MFCL45-4 subwoofers so they really aren't gonna be appealing to 400 Hz. And if you think you can change my mind on my choice to use subwoofers, these in particular, you can't. The first intentions for this system were with a subwoofer but I had to throw it out of the window because of space issues but because I still want subwoofer level bass performance I must and will use internal subwoofers. And of course "space issues" are another subject for you to complain about but please don't. No speaker on earth will work in my attic room and these towers in my room are probably one of the worst combinations ever but I want to build something real good which will keep satisfying my already high and still raising expectations for a while. It will only be a couple of years till they might end up in another room anyway. I'm 15 and at my parents place.
But what are you thoughts on the Illuminator dome? What if I would cross it at 2 - 2,3 kHz or so? And with what order should I do it? I really don't know much at all when it comes to crossovers.
I'm gonna send an email to where I got the Founteks from. I'm over the return period but not that long, they have already accepted a Dayton Ultimax which I already had for two months. I think I have had the Founteks like three weeks. From now on I'm probably just gonna wait with buying drivers until I have raised enough money to buy everything at once. Returning products is a way too often returning tradition of mine but it's not a bad thing. I return them all the time because I get better ideas with the help of you guys!
I'm gonna send an email to where I got the Founteks from. I'm over the return period but not that long, they have already accepted a Dayton Ultimax which I already had for two months. I think I have had the Founteks like three weeks. From now on I'm probably just gonna wait with buying drivers until I have raised enough money to buy everything at once. Returning products is a way too often returning tradition of mine but it's not a bad thing. I return them all the time because I get better ideas with the help of you guys!
If your 15 then you really do need bang for your buck. I was like you once and I think at your age I was using the w15cy001s as my mids and a scan speaks d2905/9700 for the tweeters.
The Excel magnesium cones make excellent midrange drivers but do need to be crossed over relatively low.
I vastly prefer the option of dropping the ribbon tweeter for a dome than going with a different midrange.
Sometimes more expensive things aren't always better so don't just assume, because it isn't big bucks, that it won't be suitable.
The easiest way around this would be to buy a pair of SEAS DXT tweeters. These will happily work down to 1.5kHz with a 4th order acoustic crossover (they'll even do a second order acoustic down that low but the W18 need a 4th) and play loud. You could even take them lower if you wanted.
If used correctly these tweeters sound sublime and I used them with the w15s a while back to great effect, along with an rs 225 in a small three way.
If you don't want the DXT then the other option is to use a waveguide on a standard dome. Both of SB acoustics standard line dimple domes work great in waveguides and will cross very low to boot. I'm talking the SB29RDs.
Put them in a monacor wg300 or a visaton wg148 and cross them at 1.2-1.3kHz.
If you want an alternative midrange then you'll need something like the mw13 from SB Acoustics for the ribbon.
The Excel magnesium cones make excellent midrange drivers but do need to be crossed over relatively low.
I vastly prefer the option of dropping the ribbon tweeter for a dome than going with a different midrange.
Sometimes more expensive things aren't always better so don't just assume, because it isn't big bucks, that it won't be suitable.
The easiest way around this would be to buy a pair of SEAS DXT tweeters. These will happily work down to 1.5kHz with a 4th order acoustic crossover (they'll even do a second order acoustic down that low but the W18 need a 4th) and play loud. You could even take them lower if you wanted.
If used correctly these tweeters sound sublime and I used them with the w15s a while back to great effect, along with an rs 225 in a small three way.
If you don't want the DXT then the other option is to use a waveguide on a standard dome. Both of SB acoustics standard line dimple domes work great in waveguides and will cross very low to boot. I'm talking the SB29RDs.
Put them in a monacor wg300 or a visaton wg148 and cross them at 1.2-1.3kHz.
If you want an alternative midrange then you'll need something like the mw13 from SB Acoustics for the ribbon.
www.audioexcite.com >> Blog Archive >> ScanSpeak 18W/4531 Measurements!
Test Bench: Scan-Speak 18M-4631T00 Revelator 6.5” Midrange Driver | audioXpress
I had measurements of the 4 ohm 18W and mine looked similar to Goran`s. That said, the 18M is the better choice as it has lower distortion and can be crossed at 1.8-2Khz. The 2nd order spike in distortion is caused by the foam suspension and is seen on the impedance plot too. The 18W has a broad peak in 2nd order distortion hence its softer mellow sound, it has the same suspension issue caused by the rubber ring. Besides, 18M has lower mass due to the foam suspension and cone is different of the 18W -00 version (both are Kurt Muller cones).
The MR16 driver has a different cone geometry and a rising response - its motor is superior to the 18W and distortion is lower. It is less directional than the 18W and has a MMS of 10.4gr compared to 14.2gr for the Scanspeak mid but only 119sqcm, hence the lighter cone. It does look to me as they took a standard midwoofer and shortened the coil, I wouldn`t call it exactly a true midrange.
If I was you and wanted to absolutely use the ribbon, I`d go for a smaller mid or a Fostex FE208EZ. Using the ribbon too low would yield the same or worse results as if you used a cheap dome. The only ones I can think of that can do 2Khz and that with a steep crossover are the Raal 140-15 and the Bozhen CQ76.
I've send an very kind email to the store. I suggested to swap them for a MiniDSP 2x4 and UMIK-1 or for just a little less like €100,-/each but they are very kind so they might probably agree. Fingers crossed!
I really appreciate your suggestion of the Seas tweeter so I can still take the W18EX001 and it certainly doesn't look bad but I think by now a slightly less expensive but still on the same price class and supposedly still one of the best ever Scan-Speak Revelator mid in combination with the Scan-Speak dome which also belongs to the very best best will as a total sound better then a just slightly better Seas mid but with a way less smooth and probably less good sounding in the real world Seas tweeter. In combination I will probably choose the Scan-Speak mid and tweet over the Seas mid and tweet.
Of course I want the best possible for my money but I don't think bang for the buck are the right words. I'm willing to pay quite something and rather buy something seriously good than something good for it's price point.
I really appreciate your suggestion of the Seas tweeter so I can still take the W18EX001 and it certainly doesn't look bad but I think by now a slightly less expensive but still on the same price class and supposedly still one of the best ever Scan-Speak Revelator mid in combination with the Scan-Speak dome which also belongs to the very best best will as a total sound better then a just slightly better Seas mid but with a way less smooth and probably less good sounding in the real world Seas tweeter. In combination I will probably choose the Scan-Speak mid and tweet over the Seas mid and tweet.
Of course I want the best possible for my money but I don't think bang for the buck are the right words. I'm willing to pay quite something and rather buy something seriously good than something good for it's price point.
Oops, was already typing. I know the SB-Acoustics are better in those respects but I don't know how they sound in the real world in comparison to the Scan-speak. I'll do some searching.
On what are you basing this assumption? The W18 + DXT will offer lower linear distortion if correctly used and have superior off axis performance due to the wave-guide of the DXT. You have made an assumption about the SEAS DXT tweeter just because it isn't in the excel line of drivers. Non-linear distortion will be very low for both setups.
I'll repeat, just because something is more expensive doesn't necessarily make it better.
I didn't mean this in terms of getting the most for the least amount of money, I meant spending your money wisely to get the job done, whilst already using what you've got.
Chasing drivers from the best lines, just because they are from the best lines, isn't a road to success. It's a road to becoming poor.
Sometimes you need to spend money to get something and sometimes you don't. For example I had to spend on the B&W FST midrange drivers that I use because of their relatively unique parameters and construction. But what tweeters do I use? £20 ones. Why? Because these suit the task that I want them to perform the best out of any tweeter I can find. Have I tried different tweeters and driver configurations (ones that cost more) you bet, do they sound better? No!
Bang for buck would be using something like the Tymphany DQ25SC in a wave-guide with the W18. Believe it or not this could be made to work very well but would need everything tuned correctly because you'd be really pushing the tweeter to its limits. The DXT tweeter, or the SB29RDs offer far more flexibility and would be harder to blow up if you did something wrong.
I'll stress here that the crossover is 99% of how a speaker sounds 1% is the drivers (providing they are all being used suitably and are equal in their usability). Do not get caught up on expensive drivers when it's not needed.
Okay I've left all my prejudices behind and taken a closer look at the test benches and compared the 18M, 18W an MR16P-4.
The W18 does indeed have less distortion than the 18M but at the cost of the impuls respons and some loudness but then the 110,2 dB of the W18 is just unnecessary. The 18W still produces a nice 106,9 dB which is okay and of the W18 the G01 would be the better than the G00 choice because it is better at a couple of things including distortion and frequency response and none of these advantages go at the cost of other compromises. Then the MR16P-4 has even lower, extremely low in fact, distortion, smoother frequency respons and it's impuls respons is better. The first downward movement after the impuls is slightly more stretched out but the upwards movement directly after is near entirely gone. But it only gets to 105 dB which is quite on the lower side.
The W18 does indeed have less distortion than the 18M but at the cost of the impuls respons and some loudness but then the 110,2 dB of the W18 is just unnecessary. The 18W still produces a nice 106,9 dB which is okay and of the W18 the G01 would be the better than the G00 choice because it is better at a couple of things including distortion and frequency response and none of these advantages go at the cost of other compromises. Then the MR16P-4 has even lower, extremely low in fact, distortion, smoother frequency respons and it's impuls respons is better. The first downward movement after the impuls is slightly more stretched out but the upwards movement directly after is near entirely gone. But it only gets to 105 dB which is quite on the lower side.
Dat zijn wel erg goede prijzen inderdaad. De site waar ik normaal keek was speaker en co.
With those prices a complete Seas Excel setup, so that's W18EX001 with Millennium, will still be pretty pricey but I might want to pay that price because in my opinion those two together are pretty much the ultimate right now. Another plus of the Millennium tweeter is it's lower sensitivity and maximum output than the Fountek and let alone the Scan-Speak. Now I'm not saying the Scan-Speak Illuminator would be a bad choice but it's maximum output is 110,5 dB over 1 dB higher than that of the Fountek making the mid and woofers have to work even harder to keep up.
The maximum output of the Millennium is only dB which is closer to that of the W18 and the subwoofers will have to commit even less effort minimizing distortion (even though it's low bass frequencies) and port velocity even further.
Would I not want to pay the price for the all-Seas (which I seriously doubt right now), I came up with another option: the Millennium tweeter with a MR16P-4. The tweeter is obviously pretty much my ultimate right now and therefore it is more expensive than the Scan Speak Illuminator but the main problem I had with using the MR16P-4 with the Illuminator was the very big difference in max output while actually the MR16P-4 is better from a sound quality perspective than the Revelator. The Lower max output of the Millennium allows me to use MR16P-4 without a big max output difference making the best of both worlds (if the W18 didn't exist) for a really good price. In fact, this setup is less expensive than all-Scan-Speak while it will sound beter! So actually Scan-Speak is totally done for for this project. If I won't take the all-Seas setup, I will take the Seas X SB-Acoustics setup anyway.
With those prices a complete Seas Excel setup, so that's W18EX001 with Millennium, will still be pretty pricey but I might want to pay that price because in my opinion those two together are pretty much the ultimate right now. Another plus of the Millennium tweeter is it's lower sensitivity and maximum output than the Fountek and let alone the Scan-Speak. Now I'm not saying the Scan-Speak Illuminator would be a bad choice but it's maximum output is 110,5 dB over 1 dB higher than that of the Fountek making the mid and woofers have to work even harder to keep up.
The maximum output of the Millennium is only dB which is closer to that of the W18 and the subwoofers will have to commit even less effort minimizing distortion (even though it's low bass frequencies) and port velocity even further.
Would I not want to pay the price for the all-Seas (which I seriously doubt right now), I came up with another option: the Millennium tweeter with a MR16P-4. The tweeter is obviously pretty much my ultimate right now and therefore it is more expensive than the Scan Speak Illuminator but the main problem I had with using the MR16P-4 with the Illuminator was the very big difference in max output while actually the MR16P-4 is better from a sound quality perspective than the Revelator. The Lower max output of the Millennium allows me to use MR16P-4 without a big max output difference making the best of both worlds (if the W18 didn't exist) for a really good price. In fact, this setup is less expensive than all-Scan-Speak while it will sound beter! So actually Scan-Speak is totally done for for this project. If I won't take the all-Seas setup, I will take the Seas X SB-Acoustics setup anyway.
For the woofers I throw them in software. For the tweeters is real sketchy I gotta be honest. I just multiply the wattage by two as many times as possible. I then / the left over wattage (in case of the Millennium 90 - 64) by last multiplication * 3 + the number of times there has been multiplied by two (6 * 3) + the sensitivity = about 108,5 dB out of my head. I know it is super inaccurate but I don't really know how to do it else and it just gives me a rough estimate to aim at.
By the way. Do you think W18EX001 and Millennium will work together crossover wise? I know the tweeter is really good and I've seen people take it pretty low but 1,6 - 1,65 kHz seems really low to me.
If not I might have to use the Satori anyway or the paper cone Seas but I really prefer the magnesium. It's kind of the point to take the W18 right now, because of it's neutrality and accuracy.
If not I might have to use the Satori anyway or the paper cone Seas but I really prefer the magnesium. It's kind of the point to take the W18 right now, because of it's neutrality and accuracy.
I've looked at what Troels does with the Crescendo which obviously is very similar and he crosses it over at 2,7 kHz in his NEXT 4 design, 2,8 kHz in his Jenzen NEXT and even 3,3 kHz in his CNO-25. All using the paper cone W18NX001. I think I'll use that one then. It won't have the same neutrality or accuracy of the magnesium but I've red reviews saying they rather sound different than worse. The paper supposedly sound more dynamic and a little softer but of course still very accurate. It's still a Seas Excel after all.
Now that I know the paper cone can totally handle the higher crossover point if even Troels himself is doing it with this exact driver I'm pretty sure I'm gonna end up taking the W18NX001 because I might seem to just be looking at the price again but when it comes to the Satori vs Excel I seriously don't think there's any chance for the Satori to sound better since it doesn't sound better than the magnesium in it's intended range either and the paper is pretty much at the same level but just different.
Now that I know the paper cone can totally handle the higher crossover point if even Troels himself is doing it with this exact driver I'm pretty sure I'm gonna end up taking the W18NX001 because I might seem to just be looking at the price again but when it comes to the Satori vs Excel I seriously don't think there's any chance for the Satori to sound better since it doesn't sound better than the magnesium in it's intended range either and the paper is pretty much at the same level but just different.
North Creek speakers that is now closed used to have a 1.6 crossover for the Seas W18e001...since the company has ceased business...does anyone have a schematic for this crossover? SPEAKER DUDE responded to me in the swap section concerning a crossover for the W18 used in a defunct NHT speaker. Finally Troels had a combo W18 and Fountek CD Neo 3 on his site years ago.
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