Don, I really don't care if you want to persist with a driver that has the rigidity of a wet jelly or a piece of tissue paper. 
Let's find some circumstantial evidence of the change in thinking recently about tweeters. Look at any of Troels Gravesen's recent projects:
DIY-Loudspeakers
Ring radiators, and metal domes, albeit aluminium or Beryllium.
Let's find some circumstantial evidence of the change in thinking recently about tweeters. Look at any of Troels Gravesen's recent projects:
DIY-Loudspeakers
Ring radiators, and metal domes, albeit aluminium or Beryllium.
Don, whatever I say to Thump Lump, I'm going to come over as more polite than him. N'est pas?
From reading your posts, it appears that your sole reason to comment here was to troll. You have contributed NOTHING to the initial topic and have continued to comment in this thread to simply bash what, in your opinion, is a shabby tweeter, even for it's low cost. Is it any wonder I have shown you little respect?
With science, it is best to leave your ego outside the door. Because the science always wins.
Science is good for measuring but your ears tell you if something sounds good. I learned 25+ years ago that specs and measurements and "science" only go so far. TRUST YOUR EARS!
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Yes, we all figure out that you abhor soft dome tweeters, but please do not present your subjectivity as a science. Soft dome tweeter waterfall can be perfect, as you can see on Dynaudio Focus 200 XD example:
Sonce, and THUMP LUMP, I do not make statements that I can't back up. Just I try to keep it simple most times! And let's be honest, I go over 95% of peoples heads, so unless the forum vote goes worse than 20-1 against on me, I don't lose sleep over it.
That is a good waterfall for a dynaudio soft-dome, but not without problems at 16kHz. I'd guess dynaudio have carefully reduced the thickness of the soft-dome at the centre to lessen the problems, but the lack of rigidity always comes back to bite you. We really want to get it entirely out of band.
If that was a aluminium tweeter, the problems would be up around 27kHz and definitely out of band. In fact spherical domes may not be the best way to construct a tweeter at all. Mathematics (presented in string theory, but it's still good maths...) tells us that toroidal solutions are more optimal. Which is what a ring-radiator like an XT-25 is, because it pins the problematical flapping middle of the dome.
There's a fairly established measuring methodology with most drivers, and Klippel are the best at this. SEAS have done well to lump all the metal cone resonances here to a single frequency in the Excel range of 6" woofers, just like dynaudio. But still there. Just a question of whether you can notch it. What I can tell you is that I have worked extensively with soft domes, and they are the worst tweeters to get working well IME. Just not easy on the ear, IMO. And I will admit it's IMO, rather than dogmatic. But I definitely do not troll.
That is a good waterfall for a dynaudio soft-dome, but not without problems at 16kHz. I'd guess dynaudio have carefully reduced the thickness of the soft-dome at the centre to lessen the problems, but the lack of rigidity always comes back to bite you. We really want to get it entirely out of band.
If that was a aluminium tweeter, the problems would be up around 27kHz and definitely out of band. In fact spherical domes may not be the best way to construct a tweeter at all. Mathematics (presented in string theory, but it's still good maths...) tells us that toroidal solutions are more optimal. Which is what a ring-radiator like an XT-25 is, because it pins the problematical flapping middle of the dome.
There's a fairly established measuring methodology with most drivers, and Klippel are the best at this. SEAS have done well to lump all the metal cone resonances here to a single frequency in the Excel range of 6" woofers, just like dynaudio. But still there. Just a question of whether you can notch it. What I can tell you is that I have worked extensively with soft domes, and they are the worst tweeters to get working well IME. Just not easy on the ear, IMO. And I will admit it's IMO, rather than dogmatic. But I definitely do not troll.
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That's ALL you have done here. And you are STILL off topic. As far as I'm concerned, this entire thread can be deleted. I found my answer from another source and said so on post #20. This thread was DONE at that point.
THUMP LUMP, understand something. DIYAudio has some of the best speaker designers in the World hanging around it. People who actually build stuff. Honestly, it doesn't get much better than Troels Gravesen, Lynn Olson, Joachim Gerhard and Jeff Bagby. Maybe John DeVore might chip in to complete my list of current generous and giving speaker heroes.
I do not claim to be one of them, although I proudly mix with them. TBH, it's just good fun to me. Didn't mathematician Hardy say his proudest claim was to work with people like Ramanujan (1729) and Littlewood on something like equal terms?
You came lording it here with some stupid issue about Dayton tweeter measurement discrepancies. We did this stuff years back.
The measurements are rubbish. It's a 89dB tweeter. What more do you need to know? My serious question, is why do you care? You could buy a much better tweeter. Unless you are cloth-eared.
Edit: I could mention a few others too. But, WHATEVER, it's more a question of attitude in the end. LOL.
I do not claim to be one of them, although I proudly mix with them. TBH, it's just good fun to me. Didn't mathematician Hardy say his proudest claim was to work with people like Ramanujan (1729) and Littlewood on something like equal terms?
You came lording it here with some stupid issue about Dayton tweeter measurement discrepancies. We did this stuff years back.
The measurements are rubbish. It's a 89dB tweeter. What more do you need to know? My serious question, is why do you care? You could buy a much better tweeter. Unless you are cloth-eared.
Edit: I could mention a few others too. But, WHATEVER, it's more a question of attitude in the end. LOL.
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It is exactly 15,734 Hz - horizontal scan frequency of analog CRT monitor. It is not a problem from a Dynaudio soft dome, but artifact from an ancient CRT monitor which John Atkinson is using with his MLSSA system in all measured loudspeakers in Stereophile reviews:
The hardest dome possible - diamond tweeter from B&W 805 D3:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Aluminium dome tweeter - Revel Performa3 M106:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
AMT tweeter - Adam Classic Column MK3:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
So, good soft dome tweeters do not have problems with resonances.
Not true. Please bear in mind that some of us in this forum actually are educated in physics and mathematical topology. In fact, string theory and Prof. Susskind lecture has nothing in common with this topic. You have to understand what torus compactification and Ricci-flat actually means, before claiming that toroidal solution is more optimal. Ring from XT-25, or more precisely annulus, topologically is equivalent to an open cylinder, not a torus! Or, if "ring tweeter diaphragm" is not punctured, than it is topologically equivalent to a dome or cone, not a torus!
That is a good waterfall for a dynaudio soft-dome, but not without problems at 16kHz. I'd guess dynaudio have carefully reduced the thickness of the soft-dome at the centre to lessen the problems, but the lack of rigidity always comes back to bite you. We really want to get it entirely out of band.
My curiosity is aroused, because I have wondered on various occasions why I see that exact same resonance with every speaker that Stereophile tests. Maybe there are some where it doesn't show up. But if there are a number of measurements of completely different speakers where the same resonance shows up, then it would have to be chalked up to a systematic anomaly in the measurement setup, would you not agree? What confuses me is that I have seen the resonance so many times, yet you apparently have not seen it except with this one driver. Very strange.
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