Can't go wrong with Onken. Here's my setup. Recently added the sealed 10" midbass for extra slam. Beyma Slot tweeters coming soon to complete the 4 way. I'm now beginning to see why JBL 4300 series was a evolution over the Altec 2 ways for studio use in the 70's. I don't think it was all corporate decline, their products were getting behind too. (I know I'll take som flac for saying that)
Interesting read: http://www.audioheritage.org/html/history/jbl-pro/1970s.htm
Interesting read: http://www.audioheritage.org/html/history/jbl-pro/1970s.htm
10" in 1/2 cubic foot sealed so no effect on overall volume really. Downe filled lightly stuffed.
416 up to 500hz 12db slope
10" mid 500-1200hz 12db
Multicell 288/805b 1200hz
(Using altec 1285 xover with EQ correction network built in)
Tweeter running 8khz-up
The 10" transformed the lower midrange, and integrates so much better to the horn. The dispersion is alot better too. The speaker sounds the same at 60deg off axis now, and plot sweeps confirm this.
416 up to 500hz 12db slope
10" mid 500-1200hz 12db
Multicell 288/805b 1200hz
(Using altec 1285 xover with EQ correction network built in)
Tweeter running 8khz-up
The 10" transformed the lower midrange, and integrates so much better to the horn. The dispersion is alot better too. The speaker sounds the same at 60deg off axis now, and plot sweeps confirm this.
Didn't notice this!Has anyone seen, or can anyone reference any posts on any forums where someone has used the MK TL tables to calculate/specify an enclose for the 416-B?
All the successful cabinets I have seen were designed before T/S. And, therefore well before MK.
It is surprising that with all the 416-B builds out there and all the discussion of this driver that this has not been on any forums. Well, that I can find.
All the successful cabinets I have seen were designed before T/S. And, therefore well before MK.
It is surprising that with all the 416-B builds out there and all the discussion of this driver that this has not been on any forums. Well, that I can find.
AFAIK, no one has done a TL for any Altec driver, MJK or otherwise, during my time on the various audio BBs, forums, though there's been quite a few MLTLs built due to me promoting them long before MJK released his software, though I called them by their traditional 'tower' moniker.
For me, his software finally allowed me to accurately size the vent for while I'd worked out a viable design routine first using just some basic info and later adapting it to T/S, I never did figure out a way to accurately scale the vent, so always had to tune it the old fashioned way since the complex higher math required is literally 'Greek' to me.
It also finally allowed me to prove to the many 'knowledgeable' DIYers and even some pros that my performance claims were real and based on closed pipe [TL] 1/4 WL pipe action and not just high aspect ratio BRs.
FWIW, Harry Olson did the first one circa 1950 AFAIK, though he missed a marketing opportunity by referring to it as merely having a 'port'.
Cabs designed before T/S used the same electrical, mechanical specs as T/S [Mms, Cms, BL, etc.], so not the 'hit or miss' alignments some claim [at least not with any Altec, JBL, RCA cabs I've reverse engineered]. The main difference between how these manufacturers did it Vs T/S is they didn't publish the specs or the formulas to protect their intellectual property nor did the designers share within the company apparently. Basically, their patent's phrase 'for those practiced in the art' says it all.
Indeed, Altec didn't do a tech bulletin for the various Altec in-house designers, installers on T/S theory along with ways to manipulate it to do various alignments, including some of the pre-T/S cabs until it became obvious that 'the cat was finally out of the bag' now that anyone could design a speaker cab once they had some specs.
Anyway, while most of the designs I've done for others were via email, I've posted some on various forums, though many are either gone now or they no longer have DIY audio forums and/or no longer have searchable older threads and unfortunately I don't currently have MathCad installed or access to my extensive sims library, so while I can design them, I can't do a sim or design the vent accurately, though with the larger cabs Altecs 'want', a basic baffle thickness vent is usually sufficient.
In doing a quick search, I found several of my Altec MLTL designs, though none specific to the 416-8B and the Altec Users Forum where most were posted has become so wacked it wouldn't allow me to search, so the only one I have anymore is this cross posted one that has since been copied by others:
Altec MLTL with Model 19 drivers | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
GM's MLTL with 416-8B
GM
For me, his software finally allowed me to accurately size the vent for while I'd worked out a viable design routine first using just some basic info and later adapting it to T/S, I never did figure out a way to accurately scale the vent, so always had to tune it the old fashioned way since the complex higher math required is literally 'Greek' to me.
It also finally allowed me to prove to the many 'knowledgeable' DIYers and even some pros that my performance claims were real and based on closed pipe [TL] 1/4 WL pipe action and not just high aspect ratio BRs.
FWIW, Harry Olson did the first one circa 1950 AFAIK, though he missed a marketing opportunity by referring to it as merely having a 'port'.
Cabs designed before T/S used the same electrical, mechanical specs as T/S [Mms, Cms, BL, etc.], so not the 'hit or miss' alignments some claim [at least not with any Altec, JBL, RCA cabs I've reverse engineered]. The main difference between how these manufacturers did it Vs T/S is they didn't publish the specs or the formulas to protect their intellectual property nor did the designers share within the company apparently. Basically, their patent's phrase 'for those practiced in the art' says it all.
Indeed, Altec didn't do a tech bulletin for the various Altec in-house designers, installers on T/S theory along with ways to manipulate it to do various alignments, including some of the pre-T/S cabs until it became obvious that 'the cat was finally out of the bag' now that anyone could design a speaker cab once they had some specs.
Anyway, while most of the designs I've done for others were via email, I've posted some on various forums, though many are either gone now or they no longer have DIY audio forums and/or no longer have searchable older threads and unfortunately I don't currently have MathCad installed or access to my extensive sims library, so while I can design them, I can't do a sim or design the vent accurately, though with the larger cabs Altecs 'want', a basic baffle thickness vent is usually sufficient.
In doing a quick search, I found several of my Altec MLTL designs, though none specific to the 416-8B and the Altec Users Forum where most were posted has become so wacked it wouldn't allow me to search, so the only one I have anymore is this cross posted one that has since been copied by others:
Altec MLTL with Model 19 drivers | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
GM's MLTL with 416-8B
GM
I have been collecting GM posts from over the years. There is, without question, a book in this. Likely a movie deal and movie rights as well.
I am thinking title, "Sayings of Chairman GM; The Little Green Altec Book" Subtitle, "Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean!"
The opening sequence is GM with the depth of field and camera angle creating a flaming old testament profit merged with a full on A-7, the wings burning bright and becoming his wings. Rising above the Fox theater they explode into a ball of fire.
Ha, I can be pretty silly.
I have the posts you referenced and they are great. They underline the mystery of why, what is arguably the most celebrated, tonally lovely, bass-mid bass driver, has not had more study.
There are people with much more brain than I who could cipher the numbers and model this puppy in an MK TL cab. Then, they could measure the results. But, I have been unable to find any such projects.
I am thinking title, "Sayings of Chairman GM; The Little Green Altec Book" Subtitle, "Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean!"
The opening sequence is GM with the depth of field and camera angle creating a flaming old testament profit merged with a full on A-7, the wings burning bright and becoming his wings. Rising above the Fox theater they explode into a ball of fire.
Ha, I can be pretty silly.
I have the posts you referenced and they are great. They underline the mystery of why, what is arguably the most celebrated, tonally lovely, bass-mid bass driver, has not had more study.
There are people with much more brain than I who could cipher the numbers and model this puppy in an MK TL cab. Then, they could measure the results. But, I have been unable to find any such projects.
Gees, I hope that's not how folks 'see' me.
BTW, there really is no mystery at all about why the vintage Altecs, RCAs, Jensens sound as they do and according to the 'crusty' old electrical engineer that tutored me, only the earliest hand crafted field coil drivers with their hemp cones were SOTA from a technical POV [and I believe even today in some ways], though with their ~zero Xmax and low electrical power rating they obviously are no match to current drivers without a huge horn to amplify them and even then won't play nearly as loud. I haven't auditioned one, but supposedly some of the GOTOs are on a par with them except can handle more power, but I don't see how since they have modern suspensions that have much different compliance, friction curves.
Heck, you can get a 'peek' just by removing the thick mounting gasket and bolting the driver directly to the baffle [with spacers for other than the old webbed/braced frames] just tight enough to indent the wood, create a seal.
Anyway, so you're saying you want a TL rather than MLTL alignment for the 416-8B?
GM
BTW, there really is no mystery at all about why the vintage Altecs, RCAs, Jensens sound as they do and according to the 'crusty' old electrical engineer that tutored me, only the earliest hand crafted field coil drivers with their hemp cones were SOTA from a technical POV [and I believe even today in some ways], though with their ~zero Xmax and low electrical power rating they obviously are no match to current drivers without a huge horn to amplify them and even then won't play nearly as loud. I haven't auditioned one, but supposedly some of the GOTOs are on a par with them except can handle more power, but I don't see how since they have modern suspensions that have much different compliance, friction curves.
Heck, you can get a 'peek' just by removing the thick mounting gasket and bolting the driver directly to the baffle [with spacers for other than the old webbed/braced frames] just tight enough to indent the wood, create a seal.
Anyway, so you're saying you want a TL rather than MLTL alignment for the 416-8B?
GM
We should let Dandee, the original poster answer that, because were totally highjacking his thread!!
My suggestion was for him to consider a TL or MLTL (I thought they were roughly the same concept) instead of building a model 19 from scratch. I've seen empty shells of 19's go dirt cheap, although waiting to find one locally is likely not ideal for the original poster. Also, should consider resale value. A "built to spec" 19 enclosure with extra bracing would likely see a return on investment over a custom design, especially with all the new GPA parts.
I;m still here,,, just been shopping for Christmas...
I had not though of resale...??? I hope to keep these...
but ya never know...
I should have joined here and posted before I decided to build...
but at the time I did not know this site was here............
Buying a Altec 19 cabinets in good shape?? not easy to find....
I had looked for more then a year.. The only thing I found was
Altec 19s that were 40 years old..thats the last time they made them new. maybe replaced diaphragms or reconed woofers..or just plain used up...
and then the crossovers ?? electronics over time change value ..
I think just replacing the caps would fix the crossovers...
thats usually what goes bad or changes value the most...
IF I was lucky enough to find a really good looking set that has not been abused
they wanted 2-3 times what they are worth...and then there is the shipping...
so I would have ended up with 4 or 5 thousand dollar in 40 year old speakers...
Maybe I should build a different speaker..?? I just like how the Altecs made everything sound... The horns.. sound real... the voices up front and open.. $15,000 Acoustic guitar... it can reproduce the sound and make it seem its in the room..
The main thinking ......why build the Altecs 100% like the old ones ???.
Its a proven design that works...
I did not want to have to change it after
it was built and re engineer it.. maybe moving the woofer up... making the cabinet
deeper or more shallow or taller might change it.. and then how to fix that?? if it does not work like the factory 19.....Then I am back to square 1.........
GPA made me a great deal on all the parts.. IF I bought everything at once..
and it saved me lots...LOTS....
And with a new solid wood cabinet.. all of it is 3/4 of a inch... They are being built out of Elm..Some Elm wood is soft...... This is Hard ELM.. and I could match it to the other
things already in my living room.....That will keep my wife happy...
I could not get away with putting a set of A-7 Altecs in my living room...
See my wife thinks of these as furniture ..she likes the sound for movies.. and she does like music..
For me.. I just wana listen to all kinds of music,,, except,, no polka.. I gota draw the line somewhere........
I thought it best to just build 100% new and I would end up with 2500.00 or less in everything.... and not have to mess with it again...move on to next project...
tube amp.... I will post photos when the cabinets are done and I have everything done..
I do have one question....I have most everything else covered..
what do I put inside for damping???? and how much???
I had not though of resale...??? I hope to keep these...
but ya never know...
I should have joined here and posted before I decided to build...
but at the time I did not know this site was here............
Buying a Altec 19 cabinets in good shape?? not easy to find....
I had looked for more then a year.. The only thing I found was
Altec 19s that were 40 years old..thats the last time they made them new. maybe replaced diaphragms or reconed woofers..or just plain used up...
and then the crossovers ?? electronics over time change value ..
I think just replacing the caps would fix the crossovers...
thats usually what goes bad or changes value the most...
IF I was lucky enough to find a really good looking set that has not been abused
they wanted 2-3 times what they are worth...and then there is the shipping...
so I would have ended up with 4 or 5 thousand dollar in 40 year old speakers...
Maybe I should build a different speaker..?? I just like how the Altecs made everything sound... The horns.. sound real... the voices up front and open.. $15,000 Acoustic guitar... it can reproduce the sound and make it seem its in the room..
The main thinking ......why build the Altecs 100% like the old ones ???.
Its a proven design that works...
I did not want to have to change it after
it was built and re engineer it.. maybe moving the woofer up... making the cabinet
deeper or more shallow or taller might change it.. and then how to fix that?? if it does not work like the factory 19.....Then I am back to square 1.........
GPA made me a great deal on all the parts.. IF I bought everything at once..
and it saved me lots...LOTS....
And with a new solid wood cabinet.. all of it is 3/4 of a inch... They are being built out of Elm..Some Elm wood is soft...... This is Hard ELM.. and I could match it to the other
things already in my living room.....That will keep my wife happy...
I could not get away with putting a set of A-7 Altecs in my living room...
See my wife thinks of these as furniture ..she likes the sound for movies.. and she does like music..
For me.. I just wana listen to all kinds of music,,, except,, no polka.. I gota draw the line somewhere........
I thought it best to just build 100% new and I would end up with 2500.00 or less in everything.... and not have to mess with it again...move on to next project...
tube amp.... I will post photos when the cabinets are done and I have everything done..
I do have one question....I have most everything else covered..
what do I put inside for damping???? and how much???
I wouldn't do solid hard wood. Been there, done that. Use 3/4" or 1" baltic birch plywood, aka marine plywood, aka russian birch. Far better and more consistent acoustic properties. Then veneer them in whatever you want. (Walnut is always nice for that vintage).
I don't think the 19 cabinets were anything special. A simple bass reflex that fit with the times. I think if you at least keep the same internal volume and porting (approx locations) the results will be the same, just better, more modern looking. I also think you could potentially squeeze more high fidelity bass out of a proper designed MLTL, but I think that's probably more for an advanced user.
Did you get a tube amp? I have dual kt88 triodes and they are perfect with Altec.
I don't think the 19 cabinets were anything special. A simple bass reflex that fit with the times. I think if you at least keep the same internal volume and porting (approx locations) the results will be the same, just better, more modern looking. I also think you could potentially squeeze more high fidelity bass out of a proper designed MLTL, but I think that's probably more for an advanced user.
Did you get a tube amp? I have dual kt88 triodes and they are perfect with Altec.
The cabinets.. as I left instructions with my Amish builder...
3/8 marine grade plywood and 3/8 elm outside...
I think he has already starthing building.. but the amish do not have
phones...... So the only way I know anything is drive down there..
its only 60 miles from me.. so its not all that bad.
There might have been better speaker I could have built or
just buy a set of new some kind of speakers...
I always thought the Altec 19 was 1 fine sounding home speaker..
Do I have a tube amp??? nope.......
everyone says it will work great with the Altecs...
so i'll take thier word on that.
I would even be willing to build one... I have the skills.....
It took me a while to slowly get my wife into me spending that much on speakers.. and now the cabinets are going to be just over 1200.00..
(but they will be first class)
I cant mention a tube amp yet...I want to live until at least Christmas..lol
I have the money... I have the time to build it..
I woke one morning 3 and 1/2 years ago to get ready for work...52 years old..got outa bed and slid down the bed into the floor,, my whole middle
left side numb and my left leg would not move...not a stroke,, I been checked manny times......now I walk just fine but not for more then 200 -300 feet at a time..,, its just my middle left 1/2 is always numb,,and my breathing is affected that makes me very tired if I dont pace myself...and I look the same as before unless I try to walk to far...........Then I feel 100 years old..
SO the bottom line is I cant work.. all I have is time......
Thats why the speakers are so Important to me.
SO the next stop ,,,is Maybe in Feb.. I will start talking tube amp to my wife so I can break her in easy..lol.. ohhhhh sure I am the boss.. she said that would be ok... can you understand that???
I could just order one in 5 min... and for the next 60 days get that look....
in the mean time I wana know what you have in tube amps.. and
did you build it?? photos..??
I cant see the posts above or I could see who was talking to me about tube amps.. and was helping me....
3/8 marine grade plywood and 3/8 elm outside...
I think he has already starthing building.. but the amish do not have
phones...... So the only way I know anything is drive down there..
its only 60 miles from me.. so its not all that bad.
There might have been better speaker I could have built or
just buy a set of new some kind of speakers...
I always thought the Altec 19 was 1 fine sounding home speaker..
Do I have a tube amp??? nope.......
everyone says it will work great with the Altecs...
so i'll take thier word on that.
I would even be willing to build one... I have the skills.....
It took me a while to slowly get my wife into me spending that much on speakers.. and now the cabinets are going to be just over 1200.00..
(but they will be first class)
I cant mention a tube amp yet...I want to live until at least Christmas..lol
I have the money... I have the time to build it..
I woke one morning 3 and 1/2 years ago to get ready for work...52 years old..got outa bed and slid down the bed into the floor,, my whole middle
left side numb and my left leg would not move...not a stroke,, I been checked manny times......now I walk just fine but not for more then 200 -300 feet at a time..,, its just my middle left 1/2 is always numb,,and my breathing is affected that makes me very tired if I dont pace myself...and I look the same as before unless I try to walk to far...........Then I feel 100 years old..
SO the bottom line is I cant work.. all I have is time......
Thats why the speakers are so Important to me.
SO the next stop ,,,is Maybe in Feb.. I will start talking tube amp to my wife so I can break her in easy..lol.. ohhhhh sure I am the boss.. she said that would be ok... can you understand that???
I could just order one in 5 min... and for the next 60 days get that look....
in the mean time I wana know what you have in tube amps.. and
did you build it?? photos..??
I cant see the posts above or I could see who was talking to me about tube amps.. and was helping me....
Neat to hear your story dandee. Sad to hear of your health issues. I can understand how this can be very important to you. Music for me is very rewarding, lots of late night listening sessions. Many friends don't get the obsession, but then, they only think of music as something for the background and not something to just listen to.
You don't have to spend big bucks to get a good tube amp. The miniwatt n3 is $300, musical paradise is a step up at $500.
But I think the biggest scores are vintage 60's stereo tube consoles from Telefunken, grundig, philips, etc. I found a telefunken "opus" tube console for $120 with all original tubes. I removed the amp section, made a mini case, and it blows away any modern amp by a wide margin! So keep an eye out at thrift stores, kijiji, etc.
You don't have to spend big bucks to get a good tube amp. The miniwatt n3 is $300, musical paradise is a step up at $500.
But I think the biggest scores are vintage 60's stereo tube consoles from Telefunken, grundig, philips, etc. I found a telefunken "opus" tube console for $120 with all original tubes. I removed the amp section, made a mini case, and it blows away any modern amp by a wide margin! So keep an eye out at thrift stores, kijiji, etc.
Dandee,
Being no stranger to medical drama, I am excited for you. Your '19s will be grand. There is nothing more reliable to make me feel good than the immersive experience of music live, or from a good system.
I was just having fun with Greg last night. This man is incredibly generous and consistently supportive. "GM" has authority and perspective to be sure. But, honestly, I can't remember a post where he has been contemptuous or dismissive. And, this in the face of sometimes bizarre and mean spirited provocation. A class act.
The Altec M-19 is ambitious. I will have a similar top end but for my all-active Altec 2way I have very modest bass expectations. Over the years I have built different systems, mostly full range, so I am bothered more by phase and timing issues than lack of low register. That's what I build sub woofers for. As for alignment I am leaning towards a sealed box because I don't expect my 416-B to do much below 55hz.
It's funny and I go back and forth between an 8cu.ft sealed box and GM's 16cu.ft vented box. I have even drawn up GM's enclosure with a partially removable back so I can fill or empty it of 8cu.ft of foam swim noodles. Maybe I can have my cake and eat it too.
I wonder if there is any advantage to loading a 416-B in some particular alignment if the concerns are frequencies above 55hz?
Being no stranger to medical drama, I am excited for you. Your '19s will be grand. There is nothing more reliable to make me feel good than the immersive experience of music live, or from a good system.
I was just having fun with Greg last night. This man is incredibly generous and consistently supportive. "GM" has authority and perspective to be sure. But, honestly, I can't remember a post where he has been contemptuous or dismissive. And, this in the face of sometimes bizarre and mean spirited provocation. A class act.
The Altec M-19 is ambitious. I will have a similar top end but for my all-active Altec 2way I have very modest bass expectations. Over the years I have built different systems, mostly full range, so I am bothered more by phase and timing issues than lack of low register. That's what I build sub woofers for. As for alignment I am leaning towards a sealed box because I don't expect my 416-B to do much below 55hz.
It's funny and I go back and forth between an 8cu.ft sealed box and GM's 16cu.ft vented box. I have even drawn up GM's enclosure with a partially removable back so I can fill or empty it of 8cu.ft of foam swim noodles. Maybe I can have my cake and eat it too.
I wonder if there is any advantage to loading a 416-B in some particular alignment if the concerns are frequencies above 55hz?
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