Hi,
Back in 2008 me and my wife decided to go separate ways, we parted as best of friends and it resulted among other things in me keeping our house. I the decided to move the music up from the basement and into the light
. I went all in and built a system i have very much enjoyed since. It was an infinite baffle system with Altec and P-audio 15" for the low end and Feastrex field coils for the rest, all DHT driven. About two years later Lotta comes into my life and she enjoys not only me but also my music system . Some time ago we decided to live in one place and that that place should be her apartment, and here comes the good part. One of the first questions she asked was "do we mount your speakers in this wall or?" and my first thought was...marry me!
After some more thought we came to the conclusion that it was best to tear down the above mentioned wall to make the living room larger and to go for another kind of speaker system.
So, here we stand with a very large living space (6.2x8.2x4.2m) and an old B&O system... The room is quite irregular along one side but not the other and except for the windows, all walls, floor and ceiling are at least 300mm of bricks or concrete.
I have for the past 25 years had different high sensitivity systems, most of them two way with horn loaded Lowthers or similar but for some reason never really anything based on compression drivers. With the room i have and hence the need to control directivity i guess it is time change that
My thinking is to try and make what essentially is a fully horn loaded two way system between ~50-60Hz and ~15kHz and with good directivity control between 200 and 7k or so.
I have listened to the Klipsch K402 horn once, can´t remember what driver but i liked what i heard I have also looked around quite a bit and this is what i have come up with soo far...quite inspired by some threads over at the Klipsch forum.
Low end:
A sort of corner horn with a low profile and one soft bend. The drivers i have for these are the GPA 416-16B or Altec 515B. 30mm Birch plywood.
Top:
My own interpretation of the K402, driven by a GPA288H?
WxHxD is 1000x556x507mm and it will be made from solid Beech. The main part of the horn is made up of the four sides + a detachable throat section that can be customized to fit other drivers. The idea is to bring this horn in from below 400Hz.
Any input to why i should or should not do it this way is most welcome!
BR,
Anders
Back in 2008 me and my wife decided to go separate ways, we parted as best of friends and it resulted among other things in me keeping our house. I the decided to move the music up from the basement and into the light
. I went all in and built a system i have very much enjoyed since. It was an infinite baffle system with Altec and P-audio 15" for the low end and Feastrex field coils for the rest, all DHT driven. About two years later Lotta comes into my life and she enjoys not only me but also my music system . Some time ago we decided to live in one place and that that place should be her apartment, and here comes the good part. One of the first questions she asked was "do we mount your speakers in this wall or?" and my first thought was...marry me!After some more thought we came to the conclusion that it was best to tear down the above mentioned wall to make the living room larger and to go for another kind of speaker system.
So, here we stand with a very large living space (6.2x8.2x4.2m) and an old B&O system... The room is quite irregular along one side but not the other and except for the windows, all walls, floor and ceiling are at least 300mm of bricks or concrete.
I have for the past 25 years had different high sensitivity systems, most of them two way with horn loaded Lowthers or similar but for some reason never really anything based on compression drivers. With the room i have and hence the need to control directivity i guess it is time change that
My thinking is to try and make what essentially is a fully horn loaded two way system between ~50-60Hz and ~15kHz and with good directivity control between 200 and 7k or so.
I have listened to the Klipsch K402 horn once, can´t remember what driver but i liked what i heard
I have also looked around quite a bit and this is what i have come up with soo far...quite inspired by some threads over at the Klipsch forum.Low end:
A sort of corner horn with a low profile and one soft bend. The drivers i have for these are the GPA 416-16B or Altec 515B. 30mm Birch plywood.
Top:
My own interpretation of the K402, driven by a GPA288H?
WxHxD is 1000x556x507mm and it will be made from solid Beech. The main part of the horn is made up of the four sides + a detachable throat section that can be customized to fit other drivers. The idea is to bring this horn in from below 400Hz.
Any input to why i should or should not do it this way is most welcome!
BR,
Anders
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Thanks Pano
Thanks for the advice, i know it is a bit of a challenge to go for such a low cross over point but i will try to make it work. I have worked allot with CD systems before but only for professional use, so thats a completely different situation. The system with the K402 i heard e few years back was crossed over even lower and it worked very well indeed and the 288 driver is almost flat to 100 on a PWT and the horn is designed to have at least fair loading and pattern control down to around 200 so i will at least give it a shot. There will be a build thread once i get started.
//Anders
Thanks for the advice, i know it is a bit of a challenge to go for such a low cross over point but i will try to make it work. I have worked allot with CD systems before but only for professional use, so thats a completely different situation. The system with the K402 i heard e few years back was crossed over even lower and it worked very well indeed and the 288 driver is almost flat to 100 on a PWT and the horn is designed to have at least fair loading and pattern control down to around 200 so i will at least give it a shot. There will be a build thread once i get started.
//Anders
Women with good high frequency hearing do not "love" speakers with a 15Khz top limit. Can your wife listen to a GPA288 before you buy?
Women with any music background do not "enjoy" speakers with an off-axis 15Khz+ super tweeter producing non-coherent directivity room artifacts. "crazy tweeters"
Since you have accepted W=1000mm ~40"
CONSIDER:
A large 3-way Synergy(Unity) horn with a 60H x 60V pattern that covers ~20Khz down to ~120Hz from a (36"W x 36"H) to (40"W x 40"H) mouth x 32" Deep.
Producing 20Hz room equalized bass from a counter-force pair of 97db/w 18" woofers in a 9cuft sealed box supporting each horn.
A few diy builds to study. Help will come if you go "all-in" .
Attachments
My ex wife used to moan about me spending so much time playing guitar.
It was nice once she left and I was given peace to play as long as I liked and not feeling guilty about it.
10 years on and my house is full of disco and guitar gear.
Until I find someone happy to live with it then I wont be getting married again.
It was nice once she left and I was given peace to play as long as I liked and not feeling guilty about it.
10 years on and my house is full of disco and guitar gear.
Until I find someone happy to live with it then I wont be getting married again.
I just don't see how a 288 is going to play clean that low. I've never gotten one to do it. Even the 290 struggles that low. And I've tried on real 300Hz horns. If you can get it to work, more power to you. But I think you'll need a BIG horn.
Mt advice, forget about what you want it to do, and cross it over where it sounds best. It took me a long time to let go of my low horn crossover fantasies, but to get great sound, I had to.
Mt advice, forget about what you want it to do, and cross it over where it sounds best. It took me a long time to let go of my low horn crossover fantasies, but to get great sound, I had to.
@LineSource
The heart of the system will be these two horns and the top end will most probably be complemented above where the big horn starts beaming, the bottom end i do not know yet, but i do have a few Eminence Lab12 laying around
I have heard many good comments regarding Synergy horns. Time alignment and pattern control are strong points but they still leave me with an itch regarding how the wave front is developed down the horn. I want to cover as much of this range as i can with one driver. These horns can be modified into a Synergy if it comes to that.
@Pano
I know how a strained CD sounds and i do not want that, if i have to lift it, go for another CD, or both, i will. I fully understand your stand and i do appreciate you input.
I have heard the 288 play very well from 500 and up, although at moderate levels.
The horns are somewhere between a horn and a wg (hornguide?), a little more hornish in the beginning and end and conical 80x50 in between. The start of the horn without the throat adapter attached is large enough to take a cone driver or a small coax but that will make it a completely different animal. I want it to be flexible since the cost to make them is rather high, I´ve been quoted a bit over 2000USD+VAT for one pair from a local firm. They are made from 3 different partsx2 and manufactured in a CNC 5-axis router.
//Anders
The heart of the system will be these two horns and the top end will most probably be complemented above where the big horn starts beaming, the bottom end i do not know yet, but i do have a few Eminence Lab12 laying around
I have heard many good comments regarding Synergy horns. Time alignment and pattern control are strong points but they still leave me with an itch regarding how the wave front is developed down the horn. I want to cover as much of this range as i can with one driver. These horns can be modified into a Synergy if it comes to that.
@Pano
I know how a strained CD sounds and i do not want that, if i have to lift it, go for another CD, or both, i will. I fully understand your stand and i do appreciate you input.
I have heard the 288 play very well from 500 and up, although at moderate levels.
The horns are somewhere between a horn and a wg (hornguide?), a little more hornish in the beginning and end and conical 80x50 in between. The start of the horn without the throat adapter attached is large enough to take a cone driver or a small coax but that will make it a completely different animal. I want it to be flexible since the cost to make them is rather high, I´ve been quoted a bit over 2000USD+VAT for one pair from a local firm. They are made from 3 different partsx2 and manufactured in a CNC 5-axis router.
//Anders
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Hi Anders,
I have the original 288C, remagged by GPA with new aluminum 8Ω diaphragms and run them on Altec 1803 horns. I must agree with Pano that trying to get below 500Hz out of them is a stretch, it's not a pleasant experience. Not sure about the newer ones but a safe bet to stay above 500 and you should be fine. The 416 or 515 woofers have no trouble going that high. In fact, I run mine active and find that 800Hz with a 48 dB slope works for me.
I have the original 288C, remagged by GPA with new aluminum 8Ω diaphragms and run them on Altec 1803 horns. I must agree with Pano that trying to get below 500Hz out of them is a stretch, it's not a pleasant experience. Not sure about the newer ones but a safe bet to stay above 500 and you should be fine. The 416 or 515 woofers have no trouble going that high. In fact, I run mine active and find that 800Hz with a 48 dB slope works for me.
Cal and Pano,
I want to go as low as i can and maybe 500 or even 600 is the limit for the 288, in any incarnation. The reason for me to go with the 288 in the first place is simple, i have a pair of 288K´s to play with and one idea was to sort things out with that driver and if all turns out well, go for a pair of GPA 288H. I like the way the Altec bass drivers sound so i could easily run them higher but when they are in the horns i am a little more skeptic, but it might not be a problem to eq a bit for the mass roll off. I also have the possibility to use another CD of course. I could see myself giving up a bit of top end and use suitable 2" CD, but which one? Any ideas? I have listened to the BMS 4592 coax and i was not to impressed. Anyone with any experience with the JBL D2430K? There is a pair on epay for under 1kUSD.
//Anders
I want to go as low as i can and maybe 500 or even 600 is the limit for the 288, in any incarnation. The reason for me to go with the 288 in the first place is simple, i have a pair of 288K´s to play with and one idea was to sort things out with that driver and if all turns out well, go for a pair of GPA 288H. I like the way the Altec bass drivers sound so i could easily run them higher but when they are in the horns i am a little more skeptic, but it might not be a problem to eq a bit for the mass roll off. I also have the possibility to use another CD of course. I could see myself giving up a bit of top end and use suitable 2" CD, but which one? Any ideas? I have listened to the BMS 4592 coax and i was not to impressed. Anyone with any experience with the JBL D2430K? There is a pair on epay for under 1kUSD.
//Anders
In a home setting, a JBL 2441 driver in a proper 250-300hz horn can do 400hz and sound very good ---just do not try to EQ it any lower or push it too hard. You may prefer the sound at a slightly higher frequency. There is also the option to upgrade to the Tru-Extent beryllium diaphragms if you choose. Good luck.
I have listened to the Klipsch K402 horn once, can´t remember what driver but i liked what i heard
I'm not an expert (but I've owned K402 for about eight years)
Depending on the setup you listened to, I'd venture to guess the K402 had a K1133 hanging on it for midrange duty.
I think they use the K1133 when it's used in a 3-way format and they will use the K1132 when it's 2-way.
In my (home) application, they actually took the tweeter driver, K69 and placed it on the K402 and I'm crossing over at 400Hz (TAD 4002 driver). When using the stock Klipsch K69, we are crossing over at 380Hz. (active crossover)
I don't know if/what the values might be for a passive.
A driver that i looked at from the beginning is the Radian 950, but it was sort of written off for the much to wide exit angle, over 20 degrees! Browsing around i found the 951 at US Speaker, but not at the Radian site. Called them up and had a very nice talk to Mark and yes, the 951 is a 950 with a narrower 1.4" throat and they do manufacture it . This seems like a very capable driver with very low distortion figures in both ends of the spectrum.
Price is quite attractive also.
Radian High Frequency Compression Drivers - Radian 951PB - Radian 951PB lightweight neodymium 1.4" high frequency compression driver that handles 100 watts RMS. Radian 951PB 1.4" high frequency compression driver is available here. Radian 951PB speak
http://www.behringer-electric.de/files/news/Radian_Truextent/Vergleichstest%20951PbTrExt4016%20vs%20476Be.pdf
round horns (scroll down for FR with the 950)
BR,
Anders
. This seems like a very capable driver with very low distortion figures in both ends of the spectrum.Price is quite attractive also.
Radian High Frequency Compression Drivers - Radian 951PB - Radian 951PB lightweight neodymium 1.4" high frequency compression driver that handles 100 watts RMS. Radian 951PB 1.4" high frequency compression driver is available here. Radian 951PB speak
http://www.behringer-electric.de/files/news/Radian_Truextent/Vergleichstest%20951PbTrExt4016%20vs%20476Be.pdf
round horns (scroll down for FR with the 950)
BR,
Anders
At the price quote for your horns, I'd be looking at a pair of vintage or reproduction multicell horns. E.G., the Altec 1005 or 1505. Cal's 1803 horns are huge. There are some guys making wooden replicas that ought to be nice, or have the made from thick paper. But I'm a fan of the mult-cell.
Whatever you do, the 288 on a big horn will sound great with the right crossover. You should be able to find the sweet spot without too much trouble. Let us know how it turns out!
Whatever you do, the 288 on a big horn will sound great with the right crossover. You should be able to find the sweet spot without too much trouble. Let us know how it turns out!
Consider the Heil ESS AMT as the tweeter. It can go down to 600Hz and sounds fantastic, no harshness or ringing and very wide and uniform directivity. I measured it as about 100dB at 2.83v and 1m but that is sub 4ohms impedance so more than a watt. But a good class D amp should handle it no problem.
@Pano
Big multi-cells have been on the shortlist and all you say make perfect sense and is probably what i should do...but...
I want the horns to be made from wood and i want them to be my own design, an ego thing to some extent i guess...
I do like the big multi-cell horns and can see why you are a big fan. I have listened to great systems with them and Onken W in Paris many years ago and that was truly stunning (think i read somewhere that you where involved somehow in the development of that or a similar system?). Buying or making a pair of 15 or 18 cell horns would probably be even more expensive then the quote i got. I have built quite a few horns over the years but only once for a CD and i am trying to use some of that experience and borrow from others to make these horns. There is a possibility that three pairs will be ordered and that would take the price down a bit.
All the above said i do wish i could have the luxury to test a multitude of different horns and drivers to go with the bass horns, but there aren't that many to try around here. The bass horns have been prototype'd, listened to, adjusted, tweaked and listened to again and they stay, along with the GPA/Altec bass drivers
@xrk971
Thanks for the tip, could maybe be used as a super tweeter but not lower in my case since it's dispersion is much to wide if used lower.
BR,
Anders
Big multi-cells have been on the shortlist and all you say make perfect sense and is probably what i should do...but...
I want the horns to be made from wood and i want them to be my own design, an ego thing to some extent i guess...
I do like the big multi-cell horns and can see why you are a big fan. I have listened to great systems with them and Onken W in Paris many years ago and that was truly stunning (think i read somewhere that you where involved somehow in the development of that or a similar system?). Buying or making a pair of 15 or 18 cell horns would probably be even more expensive then the quote i got. I have built quite a few horns over the years but only once for a CD and i am trying to use some of that experience and borrow from others to make these horns. There is a possibility that three pairs will be ordered and that would take the price down a bit.
All the above said i do wish i could have the luxury to test a multitude of different horns and drivers to go with the bass horns, but there aren't that many to try around here. The bass horns have been prototype'd, listened to, adjusted, tweaked and listened to again and they stay, along with the GPA/Altec bass drivers
@xrk971
Thanks for the tip, could maybe be used as a super tweeter but not lower in my case since it's dispersion is much to wide if used lower.
BR,
Anders
"maybe 500 or even 600 is the limit for the 288, in any incarnation"
Plane-wave tube measurements show the horn is the limit, not the driver.
http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net/publications/techletters/TL_231.pdf
Plane-wave tube measurements show the horn is the limit, not the driver.
http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net/publications/techletters/TL_231.pdf
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