Yeah, it's been periodically pointed out that compression drivers in general and Altec's in particular, can go down a lot lower than normally used if the horn is large enough as proven by WE's early 1" throat horn systems, so guess most folks are unwilling to go bigger depth wise than a 311 sectoral or 1505 multi-cell at most.
GM
GM
True GM but there are exceptions, like Björn Kolbrek and his 200Hz exponential horn for the 288B.
Exponential Midrange 2
It is also a fact that just because you get good response it doesn't necessarily means it will sound good. I want to go for a wide response so i do not have a very deep horn, about 55cm, so the load will not be very good below say 4-500. I will at first start with the 288 that i have but am very tempted to try the Radian 951PB, but it is another 1200USD to get a pair to my doorstep...
I'm going to try to make a crude prototype to at least assess the low end performance before i make the woodworker busy.
//Anders
Exponential Midrange 2
It is also a fact that just because you get good response it doesn't necessarily means it will sound good. I want to go for a wide response so i do not have a very deep horn, about 55cm, so the load will not be very good below say 4-500. I will at first start with the 288 that i have but am very tempted to try the Radian 951PB, but it is another 1200USD to get a pair to my doorstep...
I'm going to try to make a crude prototype to at least assess the low end performance before i make the woodworker busy.
//Anders
Anders, I certainly understand your point of view and now know you've investigated the options. One of the horn profiles I really liked was the Iwata. I suppose you heard those in Paris? The JMLC profile is similar, and said to be even better.
Plenty of fun ideas for horns. You could make up a pair or two of paper horns profiles just to have listen before you commit to the shape in wood.
Plenty of fun ideas for horns. You could make up a pair or two of paper horns profiles just to have listen before you commit to the shape in wood.
You're so right Pano...there are many options out there, too many to make it a simple choice between this or that. One of the things that i want to achieve is a wide listening area, hence the aim for something close to constant directivity. Looking at different profiles, the JMLC way of plotting the exponential profile seems to give the best loading/lowest distortion but it will not really give me the directivity characteristics that i would want. So i figured if i make something that would be a compromise between good loading and CD it might get me there. I can also keep the final size down a bit if i don't make the horn round as i figure that i can stop the flare at 90 degrees with less ill-effects.
I'll probably make a few crude prototypes to measure on and listen to before going for the wood ones as you suggest. I'm in the lucky situation to be able to use the big un-echoic chamber in our acoustics lab at work to make the measurements in
//Anders
I'll probably make a few crude prototypes to measure on and listen to before going for the wood ones as you suggest. I'm in the lucky situation to be able to use the big un-echoic chamber in our acoustics lab at work to make the measurements in
//Anders
Just to tease you:
CH Audio Design
A few years back I almost bought a pair of little Pioneer wooden multi-cells at a show. They sold before I could make up my mind. Beautiful, they were.
CH Audio Design
A few years back I almost bought a pair of little Pioneer wooden multi-cells at a show. They sold before I could make up my mind. Beautiful, they were.
Hi Anders
Intresting Project you are emerging into!
I have used the GPA 288 alnico Version in a JMLC 200T horn and liked it a lot. It loads and measures okay to 350hz in that horn with a tremendous growl and grunt. I am sure that the enormous horn takes a lot of strain off the diagraphm. But ideally it should be crossed over much higher and will certainly sound better in the 500-600hz range.
Currently I am using the JBL D2430K from 1700hz and all the way up above JBL CMCD in a customized SEOS 24 horn.
I really like the D2430K, but it needs heavy compensation, and would not me usable below 800hz.
Yap, it is
Thanks for the input on the 2430.
Sounds like an interesting system! Does the CMCD deliver what one might hope for?
I will start to sort the horn out with what i have at hand, the 288K, but am very tempted to get a pair of Radian 950/951. As it looks i can remove the throat section and connect them to the horn right down at the phase plug.
//Anders
Thats it!
This is my setup
Yes i have measured it. It definately needs EQ, but correctly equalized it plays clean from 250hz to 2000hz. Practically no distortion and sweet sound imo. 3 PEQ is sufficient for a decent equalization in the passband
This is my setup
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yes i have measured it. It definately needs EQ, but correctly equalized it plays clean from 250hz to 2000hz. Practically no distortion and sweet sound imo. 3 PEQ is sufficient for a decent equalization in the passband
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True and why I qualified it as 'most folks'.
Yeah, at 55 cm, it will be too short for a wide response at its ~300 Hz 1/2 WL resonance without a second driver. The horn I experimented with was around 3 ft long terminating into an 1803 mouth area.
GM
Nice set-up Johan!
That is a big horn GM, how did it work out? I know that what I am sketching on is a bit on the short side, not as short as SEOS of comparable size but still short. Looking at some of the FR measurements of the large SEOS WG they do perform a lot better than they "should" in the lower end. We will see how the tests with the crude proto's will turns out
//Anders
That is a big horn GM, how did it work out? I know that what I am sketching on is a bit on the short side, not as short as SEOS of comparable size but still short. Looking at some of the FR measurements of the large SEOS WG they do perform a lot better than they "should" in the lower end. We will see how the tests with the crude proto's will turns out
//Anders
Worked great with a 288B, so made it even longer for an 802B and it worked great also for getting it to play well below its Fs, but as I feared, its massive air mass 'bubble' rolled off the HF too much same as the early WE horns and the time delay error with a super-tweeter terminating at its mouth was just too dissident for me with either driver; so being decades before digital delay came along, I ultimately stacked two 511/802 combos together and rolled off the extreme HF of the top one to 'have my cake and eat it too' WRT getting a 'full' mids with an extended HF and a side benefit of having a 'tighter' vertical response than the 805/288 combos these replaced.
Today, it would be quite a bit cheaper too, but back then you couldn't hardly give away a pair of multi-cells around here, much less tar filled ones due to the downsizing, dividing up of large theaters and all the new multiplexes being built in every suburb, so was lucky to get an even swap for the 288s and AFAIK the horns went to a land fill.
GM
Today, it would be quite a bit cheaper too, but back then you couldn't hardly give away a pair of multi-cells around here, much less tar filled ones due to the downsizing, dividing up of large theaters and all the new multiplexes being built in every suburb, so was lucky to get an even swap for the 288s and AFAIK the horns went to a land fill.
GM
EXCELLENT horn system thread by PMA! demonstrates what is possible with the AutoTech fiberglass horns from Poland.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/267373-my-diy-horn-setup.html
Interesting System Paring...
BMS 4594ND coaxial compression driver on LeCleach JMLC 350 horn.
Jhorn bass horn for 15" woofer.
Have you studied or auditioned the BMS 1.4" Coax Neo Compression Drivers like the 4594ND? BMS measurements suggest that a 400-500Hz Xover can produce clean dynamic midrange response, along with 20Khz highs.
For bass, PMA! built a push-pull slot loaded dipole line array with eight 15" woofers. Around 1998 Martin Logan built a BalancedForce™ bass array by stacking push-pull sealed box woofer pairs with amps/Xover. This arrangement with amp+crossover+delay allows flexiblility to create: dipole or bipole or cardiod polar response.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/267373-my-diy-horn-setup.html
Interesting System Paring...
BMS 4594ND coaxial compression driver on LeCleach JMLC 350 horn.
Jhorn bass horn for 15" woofer.
Have you studied or auditioned the BMS 1.4" Coax Neo Compression Drivers like the 4594ND? BMS measurements suggest that a 400-500Hz Xover can produce clean dynamic midrange response, along with 20Khz highs.
For bass, PMA! built a push-pull slot loaded dipole line array with eight 15" woofers. Around 1998 Martin Logan built a BalancedForce™ bass array by stacking push-pull sealed box woofer pairs with amps/Xover. This arrangement with amp+crossover+delay allows flexiblility to create: dipole or bipole or cardiod polar response.
Attachments
I would love to see the results from a Radian 950/951 with a 1" opening. There is driver produce by Swen Pesch which is a WE 555 clone and should go low.
I think he sells a driver called the PE 666, not just complete systems.
Products - Physical-Emotions - Freude am aussergewöhnlichen Klangerlebnis
I think he sells a driver called the PE 666, not just complete systems.
Products - Physical-Emotions - Freude am aussergewöhnlichen Klangerlebnis
It is a nice thread Linesource! Not really what I aim for but interresting all the same.
Nope, never heard the 4594 but I take it that it is essentially the same as the 4592. I did not like the 4592 very much, if it was the driver or the implementation that was to blame, I don't know. It was the upper part of the spectrum that was sort of flat and lifeless, lacking in both tone and dynamics. I have gone ahead and actually ordered a pair of 951's
3GG, maybe it would be pushing it a bit to run a 4" driver thru a 1" throat?
Nope, never heard the 4594 but I take it that it is essentially the same as the 4592. I did not like the 4592 very much, if it was the driver or the implementation that was to blame, I don't know. It was the upper part of the spectrum that was sort of flat and lifeless, lacking in both tone and dynamics. I have gone ahead and actually ordered a pair of 951's
3GG, maybe it would be pushing it a bit to run a 4" driver thru a 1" throat?
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