Can you guys suggest an alternative for the P13?
I am currently using it as a mid from 400Hz to 4kHz. I got it because I wanted warmer mids... which i got. Now I have heard other branded speakers... I feel the P13 is not very "revealing"...
I would like to budget from $50 to $150/pr for a 5" to 5.5" replacement... with a smooth FR and no break up modes that I need to deal with..
Research has uncovered the SEAS Prestige MCA15RCY, has anyone heard it or better yet, compared it to the P13?
Oh yes another reason I want to change the P13 is I cannot get a rock solid center image with them... I can with $10 mids if I have lying around but not with the P13's... I suspect the P13's I have may not be matched or worse not made to tight specs.. Is this possible...?
Thanks!
I am currently using it as a mid from 400Hz to 4kHz. I got it because I wanted warmer mids... which i got. Now I have heard other branded speakers... I feel the P13 is not very "revealing"...
I would like to budget from $50 to $150/pr for a 5" to 5.5" replacement... with a smooth FR and no break up modes that I need to deal with..
Research has uncovered the SEAS Prestige MCA15RCY, has anyone heard it or better yet, compared it to the P13?
Oh yes another reason I want to change the P13 is I cannot get a rock solid center image with them... I can with $10 mids if I have lying around but not with the P13's... I suspect the P13's I have may not be matched or worse not made to tight specs.. Is this possible...?
Thanks!
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I got 3 more lower priced options I can consider..
Peerless Exclusive 831882 - 5.75" ($116 / pr)
JM Lab 5.25 PL - ( $40/ pr).... Is this an older model?
Dayton Ref (RS125S8) 5" - ($60 / pr)
Peerless Exclusive 831882 - 5.75" ($116 / pr)
JM Lab 5.25 PL - ( $40/ pr).... Is this an older model?
Dayton Ref (RS125S8) 5" - ($60 / pr)
The Dayton is metal, will be revealing but you have to deal with strong break up node. I do not think metal cone speakers are suitable for a midrange as to avoid the cone resonanse even with the Excels, you have to cut them low and steep.
The Peerless HDS uses nomex whose sound I do not like and they have large voice coil inductance value, which speaks about a bigger coil.
I do not expect the Seas coated cone to provide much better resolution, coated drivers have better damping properties and sound soft and unrevealing. What you hear is the sound of the coating, not the paper itself.
I know some paper drivers may sound harsh, but uncoated paper cone should be my choice If I am you. It will be a total gamble, but you may try the new NE123W-04 - Vifa 4" woofer - EUROPE AUDIO I do not know If anyone has tested these, but they look very good for this price. Of course, this is not a warranty that they will sound good, but you may give them a shot. unlike any other driver at this price point they offer neodymium multibar magnet system, opened cast frame, perforated voice coil former which should eliminate internal coil former resonanses and compression and uncoated paper/wood pulp cones. The dust cap is small and the vc inductance is very low which talks about a small and very light coil. On paper, this should be a great sounding driver but until i have heard it...
Other good contestor is the Tangband W4 - this is a very good sounding speaker for this price and may be cut at 9-10Khz which will allow you to use a cheap tweeter. The SB acoustics drivers also look interesting but I have no experience with them.
The Peerless HDS uses nomex whose sound I do not like and they have large voice coil inductance value, which speaks about a bigger coil.
I do not expect the Seas coated cone to provide much better resolution, coated drivers have better damping properties and sound soft and unrevealing. What you hear is the sound of the coating, not the paper itself.
I know some paper drivers may sound harsh, but uncoated paper cone should be my choice If I am you. It will be a total gamble, but you may try the new NE123W-04 - Vifa 4" woofer - EUROPE AUDIO I do not know If anyone has tested these, but they look very good for this price. Of course, this is not a warranty that they will sound good, but you may give them a shot. unlike any other driver at this price point they offer neodymium multibar magnet system, opened cast frame, perforated voice coil former which should eliminate internal coil former resonanses and compression and uncoated paper/wood pulp cones. The dust cap is small and the vc inductance is very low which talks about a small and very light coil. On paper, this should be a great sounding driver but until i have heard it...
Other good contestor is the Tangband W4 - this is a very good sounding speaker for this price and may be cut at 9-10Khz which will allow you to use a cheap tweeter. The SB acoustics drivers also look interesting but I have no experience with them.
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I don't think its the P13. Have you tried crossing lower at 2K5. I use Seas 27TDFC, Vifa D25AG35 and PL27TG35 for 2K5 (HP at 18dB). Avoid the older Vifas because they require a LCR to tame the resonance peak. Apart from that, they are as good as the newer 27TDFC.
If you prefer to change your P13, consider the HiVi M5a and Zaph ZA14. They are excellent drivers. My ZA14 is paired with a Vifa XT25 whereas the M5a is with a D25AG35.
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Thank you all for your thoughts…
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Based on those and other research, I have decided to try 2 mids. (A third one thrown in only because it was rather cheap at $10.80 a pop).
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1)***** TB W5-1685 ($45.86) – Large underhung motor, low distortion.
2)***** Zaph ZA14 ($39.80) – Low dist, Zaph’s name, looks pretty… but gotta roll it off steeper .
3)***** *Dahlquist W5-KA538A – Good name (even if it is not the same Dahlquist).. and what do I lose for $10.80?
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I will test and report back once these ship out and have replaced my P13’s.
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Thanks!
K-amps
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Based on those and other research, I have decided to try 2 mids. (A third one thrown in only because it was rather cheap at $10.80 a pop).
*
1)***** TB W5-1685 ($45.86) – Large underhung motor, low distortion.
2)***** Zaph ZA14 ($39.80) – Low dist, Zaph’s name, looks pretty… but gotta roll it off steeper .
3)***** *Dahlquist W5-KA538A – Good name (even if it is not the same Dahlquist).. and what do I lose for $10.80?
*
I will test and report back once these ship out and have replaced my P13’s.
*
Thanks!
K-amps
The Tangband W4 is a better choice for the freq. range you look at ( If you want to stick with TB ). It will be more transparent than the larger one, has a phase plug and will allow you to cut it high.
If you decide to try the Vifa NE line, please keep me posted on this.
If you decide to try the Vifa NE line, please keep me posted on this.
Update:
The TB W5-1685 were delivered... as a first test I did a rudimentary listening test of the P13, the Dahlquist W5 and the TB W5. The Dahlquish sounded the worst, strained and glared at 500Hz to 2000Hz (or is it beamy?).. Followed by the P13, very similar in sonic signature to the Dahlquist, but not so strained, and soaks up much more power before sounding distorted. But even feeding it a non full spectrum signal, the sound in the 800-1800Hz range is overpowering... makes me turn my head away.
The TB was a completely different ball game. The details and balanced sound free of glare was eye-popping. I then proceeded to handicap the TB by inserting a 0.3mH in series to cut out the extra HF it had vs the other 2 andlevel the playing field a little, it still sounded better, open clearer , detailed and less fatiguing. There is less warmth compared to the P13 and also less sensitivity, but so far I am enjoying it very much. Even though I am not using it as a bass driver, it just delivers much more LF than the P13 or the Dahlquist... it seems to be a much more superior product. Much more faithful to the signal than the other 2... only issue is the lessor sensitivity... mean I will have to pad the tweeters down a bit.
The Zapg ZA14's will be delivered later today and then I will compare them again...
The TB W5-1685 were delivered... as a first test I did a rudimentary listening test of the P13, the Dahlquist W5 and the TB W5. The Dahlquish sounded the worst, strained and glared at 500Hz to 2000Hz (or is it beamy?).. Followed by the P13, very similar in sonic signature to the Dahlquist, but not so strained, and soaks up much more power before sounding distorted. But even feeding it a non full spectrum signal, the sound in the 800-1800Hz range is overpowering... makes me turn my head away.
The TB was a completely different ball game. The details and balanced sound free of glare was eye-popping. I then proceeded to handicap the TB by inserting a 0.3mH in series to cut out the extra HF it had vs the other 2 andlevel the playing field a little, it still sounded better, open clearer , detailed and less fatiguing. There is less warmth compared to the P13 and also less sensitivity, but so far I am enjoying it very much. Even though I am not using it as a bass driver, it just delivers much more LF than the P13 or the Dahlquist... it seems to be a much more superior product. Much more faithful to the signal than the other 2... only issue is the lessor sensitivity... mean I will have to pad the tweeters down a bit.
The Zapg ZA14's will be delivered later today and then I will compare them again...
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Got the ZAPH ZA14's... very nice indeed. Both the TB W5 and the ZA14's blow the Vifa P13 on details and realism.
Now the tough choice between the TB and the Za.... this will take time!
Now the tough choice between the TB and the Za.... this will take time!
I've used the MCA15RCY in several construction, and its very easy to deal with. But they dont sound good crossed higher than 3khz.
I also think they sound better with a bigger enclosure, or at least deaper enclosure because of standing waves reflects back through the paper cone.
My last discover was that they liked to be ported, why I dont know for sure.
(just in case someone read this post and likes to know) 🙂
I also think they sound better with a bigger enclosure, or at least deaper enclosure because of standing waves reflects back through the paper cone.
My last discover was that they liked to be ported, why I dont know for sure.
(just in case someone read this post and likes to know) 🙂
After modeling the TB, it appears it is designed to go as low as 40Hz (-3dB) in a 20L BR. With its flat, extended FR, all it takes is a tweeter and you have an impressive compact 2-way. No subs needed, though some sensitivity will have to be sacrificed to get enough bass.
The ZA14 on the other hand is at 60Hz (-3dB) in a 23L BR. Mine is loaded in a 13L BR at 70HZ (-3dB). Good for vocal monitoring, MTM mains or center in HT (provided the amp is able to drive them). For music playback, a subwoofer is necessary to take care of the lower frequencies.
What tweeters and woofers are you using and at what frequency/slope do you plan to cross them with your midwoofers?
I have installed the ZA14 (will need to enlarge the holes for the TB W5 which I do not want to do... I feel cheated that the 5" W5 is actually a 6.1" driver... )
The center image is good, but compared to the P13,the soundstage has become smaller. Also there is a "horn" like anomaly in the 400Hz region... it is overemphasized... nothing like that shows in the FR... it is weird... it kills the details this driver can produce.
next step... return the W5 and get a real 5" driver (i.e. the W4 which is supposedly a 4" driver but measures in at 4.95"... go figure)
These drivers are supported by 4x TB W8-740's and a 15" jbl... so no worries on the bass... all I want is a great mid.
The center image is good, but compared to the P13,the soundstage has become smaller. Also there is a "horn" like anomaly in the 400Hz region... it is overemphasized... nothing like that shows in the FR... it is weird... it kills the details this driver can produce.
next step... return the W5 and get a real 5" driver (i.e. the W4 which is supposedly a 4" driver but measures in at 4.95"... go figure)
These drivers are supported by 4x TB W8-740's and a 15" jbl... so no worries on the bass... all I want is a great mid.
I appreciate your comments about your tests, I am also looking for a 5" mid for the 500-3kHz area for OB.
I used the Peerless 5" 830656, it is a good driver for it price, it distortion is not low in the midrange but it works very well. A replacement at decent price is not easy to find.
😉
I used the Peerless 5" 830656, it is a good driver for it price, it distortion is not low in the midrange but it works very well. A replacement at decent price is not easy to find.
😉
The flat response shown in their datasheet is with the ZA14 mounted on an IEC baffle. When in a box or OB, you will encounter a rising response at about 500Hz. I had to apply -2dB BSC on my ZA14. Otherwise, its quite fatiguing listening to it with so much mids.
Try to crossover lower than 4K. It may improve your soundstage. My usual range is from 2K5 to 3K5. I like to cross my tweeters as low as possible, usually 2K5.
Thanks Michael... that is very useful information. What crossover the components you used to tame the 500Hz? Care to tell me the crossover/ schematics?
Jerome... this is the 4th Mid i have tried this week... i am wary of trying something new, unless you have compared the Peerless to the ZA14 or TB W5. But TY for your thoughts . By the way does anyone know what mids/bass they use in the limited edition Piega's? They have two 4" bass drivers which seem to be Peerless's with truncated baskets..
Jerome... this is the 4th Mid i have tried this week... i am wary of trying something new, unless you have compared the Peerless to the ZA14 or TB W5. But TY for your thoughts . By the way does anyone know what mids/bass they use in the limited edition Piega's? They have two 4" bass drivers which seem to be Peerless's with truncated baskets..
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PS: If my application was nearfield, I would definitely prefer the TB W5 over the ZA14... it is more neutral.
The 5" Perless was not a suggestion, it is clearly a "less good" driver but for it price, it is a leader. The only thing I noticed is its "less good" transparency because the distortion is high.
It could be a custom driver. Should be this one (discontinued) 830851 | Tymphany
Exactly.... as a simple first experiment, I cut the lower xo point from 350Hz to 800Hz, sounds much better... but thinner... this is a good start because the overbearing mids are less...... but all this work and I feel like ordering the W4 now... 🙄
The BSC is 0.5mH // 2R. This is quite light, about 2dB. Just enough, as can be seen in the picture on the right. This plot is Ungated, normal SPL in-room sweep at 1W1M, smoothed 1/3 oct. From 100Hz to 1K, room boundary effects are clearly discernible.
The middle picture is a Gated Response of the crossover at 3K5. If the crossover is not right, this is where it'll show up.
I don't have a full picture of your speaker, so its quite difficult to offer anything constructive. Are your TB W8-740s boxed?
The middle picture is a Gated Response of the crossover at 3K5. If the crossover is not right, this is where it'll show up.
I don't have a full picture of your speaker, so its quite difficult to offer anything constructive. Are your TB W8-740s boxed?
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