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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Loudspeaker perception
Loudspeaker perception
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Old 23rd September 2008, 06:40 PM   #11
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Markus, If you read again my post I'm suggesting to use only ONE channel from a recording to be played on both of the speakers, thus signals are identical. With identical signals you should hear phantom in the middle as assumed. The test will show you are NOT able to hear a phantom above, say, 1kHz. That is my point.

For the P.S. part I agree, but one should not forget that stereo as Blumlein intended works only below, say, 700Hz.

- Elias


Quote:
Originally posted by markus76

Why should I? You play back to incoherent signals, i.e. the hearing can't fuse the two signals to one. But summing localization and hearing a phantom sound source IS ONE THING. There can't be a phantom sound source without coherent signals arriving within the timeframe of 1 ms.

Best, Markus

P.S. Summing localization is the one phenomenon that makes stereophony (and multichannel playback) possible. We still have no good understanding why our brain is fusing coherent signals and little research has been done in that field.
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Old 23rd September 2008, 06:43 PM   #12
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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To be more specific, summing localisation mekes stereo to work, but NOT multi channel! Again due to pinna localisation, one cannot make stable phantom images at the side of the listener.

- Elias

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Originally posted by markus76
P.S. Summing localization is the one phenomenon that makes stereophony (and multichannel playback) possible. We still have no good understanding why our brain is fusing coherent signals and little research has been done in that field.
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Old 23rd September 2008, 06:47 PM   #13
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Elias, of course is it possible to hear a phantom image coming from exactly the middle with a high pass filtered mono signal. As we speak I'm experiencing that with mono music coming from my MacBook Pro. Maybe I still have not understood your test or maybe you inverted the cables running to your speakers?

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Old 23rd September 2008, 06:56 PM   #14
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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What corner freq you are using in high pass filter that allows you still hear the phantom? How high can you go?

The temporal spectral content of the music does have an effect. Broadband percussive sounds are the worst to form a phantom image at high freqs.

- Elias

Quote:
Originally posted by markus76
Elias, of course is it possible to hear a phantom image coming from exactly the middle with a high pass filtered mono signal. As we speak I'm experiencing that with mono music coming from my MacBook Pro. Maybe I still have not understood your test or maybe you inverted the cables running to your speakers?
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Old 23rd September 2008, 07:05 PM   #15
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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A high pass is per definition a filter that passes high frequencies and attenuates low frequencies. Do you agree with me?
I can sweep through the whole audible spectrum (using Protools). There's no change in imaging. There would be problems when setting the filter lower than 150 Hz but the MacBook speakers don't transmit anything usable below 200 Hz.

Best, Markus
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Old 23rd September 2008, 07:44 PM   #16
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Can you provide any info of speakers you are using to do the test? A picture perhaps? How is the high freq dispersion behaviour, narrow or wide?

- Elias

Quote:
Originally posted by markus76
A high pass is per definition a filter that passes high frequencies and attenuates low frequencies. Do you agree with me?
I can sweep through the whole audible spectrum (using Protools). There's no change in imaging. There would be problems when setting the filter lower than 150 Hz but the MacBook speakers don't transmit anything usable below 200 Hz.
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Old 23rd September 2008, 08:21 PM   #17
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Don't know what that has to do with the test "results" but I'm sitting in front of my MacBook which is a laptop.
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Old 23rd September 2008, 08:40 PM   #18
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally posted by markus76
Don't know what that has to do with the test "results" but I'm sitting in front of my MacBook which is a laptop.
You are sitting in front of your laptop and listening to it, it means 'speakers' are right under your chin and you call that a "test". Oh dear.
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Old 23rd September 2008, 08:55 PM   #19
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Why shouldn't your test work with me sitting in an extreme nearfield situation? The stereo triangle is about 30 cm so no early reflections disturb imaging despite the fact that those drivers have serious limitations in maximum level and a lack of frequencies below 200 Hz. Following your thoughts this should help in creating the phenomenon you're trying to describe!?
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Old 23rd September 2008, 09:43 PM   #20
markus76 is offline markus76  Germany
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Sorry, made a mistake in post Post #4477: As we're talking about a high pass filter there will be NO effect on summing localization when setting the cutoff frequency to about 150 Hz. By applying a low pass instead there would be of course localization problems because only frequencies below 150 Hz would be present.

Best, Markus
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