This is why a 1 watt DHT or even a 20 watt DHT will not excite the 100 or 1000 or 10 kW of total power involved in moving body and eardrums. It is why I do not generally use earphones. How can you pay £2000 for earphones that only wag your eardrums.
The ability of moving lots of air below 800 cycles or so is where it gets difficult and most systems miss the important bottom octave (this is really the foundation of "feel" begins)and ultra important 80 to 300 Hz range where direct radiators don't interface with the rooms airload efficiently like a horn and normally have major dips in the response due to floor, ceiling and sidewall interference. A well placed front midbass horn in my experience (even with a 8"driver) can pull this off better then a 7 foot array of four good pro sound 15's. The difference is not subtle when it comes to the body saying "is this live?" it's really worth the time to build a horn to try this for yourself. Just build one and listen in mono first to save time
A good horn system will scare the crap out you (meaning you actually will be fooled into believing the sound is real- as in being startled or shocked) and you'll like it. This is why you see hornys building these big systems, they work!
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Thank you very much.
I didn't hear before about Prof. Kanneman, his work and his book(s). I will read it.
Yet, my views (or my own philosophy) are/is based on my own experiences, observations and realizations -- not on the words or thoughts of others.
There are two things, which often, many people don't distinguish between.
One thing is Reality, or 'reality-in-itself'.
The other thing is perception of reality.
Usually, most people, most of the time, don't know and cannot know Reality, or 'reality-in-itself'.
Usually, what most people have, most of the time, is only the perception of reality. That perception of reality is constructed by a combination of sensory input plus the interpretation of the mind about that sensory input.
The interpretation of the mind is given to, and influenced by, or shaped by, a myriad of factors. We may label that myriad of factors as 'belief system'.
The outcome of the above is that often, different people differ on what reality is. What appears as real, or as reality, to one person, may well appear as not real, or non-reality, or false, or illusion, to another person.
I find it useful, when in debate, to bear in mind the last paragraph. That is, to bear in mind that it is the way things are, that different people have 'different realities' (actually, different views about what is reality, or about what is real versus what is false, or illusion).
Indeed. It's one of the basic traits of the human nature. Actually, most often, it cannot be otherwise, since each one's 'reality', or 'view of what reality is', is based on, and constructed by, one's belief system. It is one's belief system that shapes one's perception of reality -- while many people treat their perception of reality as if it is the actual reality, or 'reality-in-utself'.
Agreed, though I don't view it as 'logic', but as the way things actually work in us. That is, it's our actual inner mechanism, which (to my view) has nothing to do with logic.
Now, the word logic calls for a scrutiny.
I try to avoid phrasing my own conclusions, I tend to encourage others to observe, each one on one's own -- and by this, for each one to get to one's own conclusions.
My conclusion is that 'logic' is the story each person tells oneself, in order frame 'reality' (which is, actually, one's perception of reality) into a coherent picture in one's mind.
Yet again, my own personal conclusion should be utterly meaningless to anyone else.
I found observations to be useful, while accepting others' words at face value to be non-productive.
That being said, the words of others aren't necessarily useless, not always. They may be useful in those cases when they enable, or trigger, a different angle to our own observations.
The ability of moving lots of air below 800 cycles or so is where it gets difficult and most systems miss the important bottom octave (this is really the foundation of "feel" begins)and ultra important 80 to 300 Hz range where direct radiators don't interface with the rooms airload efficiently like a horn and normally have major dips in the response due to floor, ceiling and sidewall interference. A well placed front midbass horn in my experience (even with a 8"driver) can pull this off better then a 7 foot array of four good pro sound 15's. The difference is not subtle when it comes to the body saying "is this live?" it's really worth the time to build a horn to try this for yourself. Just build one and listen in mono first to save time
Yeah. I have ascertained that. That is what I have in one system and it is with more amps than I'ver had hot dinners. In a demo home a visitor had brought along Mahlers ?7th Symphony The bass drum stroke with electric cooker amps made me wince. I never go that high but it went there with alacrity. The piano with the mids also give proper piano transients, but \i still want to knock out a horn midtreble for fun
CS Lewis said God is without time, and the science is there to explain that without mass, time does not exist. There is much in math to substantiate a possibly fundamental eternity and unification of all people
Thank you very much, Scott.
Indeed, the way we relate to one another is very important.
Differences in views are unavoidable. See my above post.
You proved yourself to me as a very decent human being by your actions (you mailed me, free of charge, some transistors, without me asking you to do it).
The ability of moving lots of air below 800 cycles or so is where it gets difficult and most systems miss the important bottom octave (this is really the foundation of "feel" begins)and ultra important 80 to 300 Hz range where direct radiators don't interface with the rooms airload efficiently like a horn and normally have major dips in the response due to floor, ceiling and sidewall interference. A well placed front midbass horn in my experience (even with a 8"driver) can pull this off better then a 7 foot array of four good pro sound 15's. The difference is not subtle when it comes to the body saying "is this live?" it's really worth the time to build a horn to try this for yourself. Just build one and listen in mono first to save time
In live concert, at times, when the timpani (or base drum, or big drum -- I'm not familiar with the terminology) strike, the air movement is being felt in one's body.
Edit: it should be 'bass drum'.
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Thank you for bringing it up.
I'm unfamiliar with neither CS Lewis, nor with the scientific explanations you mentioned.
I do know that various people, from various cultures and various millenniums, say similar things -- similar but not always identical.
Attempts to put in words that which cannot be defined by words are bound to only partial success, at best. Yet, at times, by reading others' words, I get a sense that they are referring to the same reality I refer to. To me, it isn't the words used which counts, it's what those words may point at.
Anyhow, I found the word 'God' to be potentially misleading, because of the heavy and deep-rooted religious connotations this word has in so many of us. I prefer the term 'the source of the universe', or 'the essence of being'. Alternately, I use the term 'godhead', which may have less religious connotations.
I have been reading the discussion lately and the specific quality of low bass and the impact on the body and how we hear and interpret low frequencies. At one time most consumer audio speakers had a lower frequency bump at about 60hz and this was a very common way to convey the bass without actually getting down into the lower octave as low as say 30hz or so. Most pro drivers of the time also had higher fs values than anything we have been talking about in the past 10 years or so. At the same time we did have that hit you in the gut low frequency that some are talking about, it did not need to get into the extreme range to have that effect.
Now I have been working for quite some time on small format cone drivers that can do what you are talking about. The lower frequency cutoff is about 35hz from a 6 1/2" cone. If you have not heard the speaker and you haven't seen the speaker and I ask what size is the speaker that is making that sound I inevitably will hear that it must be a 15" speaker to do what it is doing. It hits you hard in the gut if the bass is in the recording. So I am not a true believer that you have to have a large bass horn or even a sub woofer to get the bass impact you are all talking about.
Now I have been working for quite some time on small format cone drivers that can do what you are talking about. The lower frequency cutoff is about 35hz from a 6 1/2" cone. If you have not heard the speaker and you haven't seen the speaker and I ask what size is the speaker that is making that sound I inevitably will hear that it must be a 15" speaker to do what it is doing. It hits you hard in the gut if the bass is in the recording. So I am not a true believer that you have to have a large bass horn or even a sub woofer to get the bass impact you are all talking about.
Last night during our dress rehearsal for tonight's symphony concert, one of the percussionists told me that the sound from one of my passages on timpani had caused his entire rib cage to vibrate. Usually I am situated further away from the percussion section, so he hadn't had this happen before.
The note that his body responded to wasn't really all that low -- the second A below middle C, written in the lowest space in the bass clef, 110 Hz. But this is on a head 29" in diameter. With about 4.58 square feet of vibrating drumhead, I can definitely move some air!
The range of the timpani (kettledrums) isn't very wide. Four drums (32, 29, 26 and 23 inches) are usually used. The lowest drum goes down as low as about 80 Hz, and the highest drum is rarely tuned higher than 175 Hz. When playing below 100 Hz, the amount of fundamental decreases rapidly.
The bass drum (or "gran cassa", big drum) is another beast entirely. It isn't tuned to a definite pitch, but the deepest part of the fundamental spread is often around 30 Hz or lower. Playing the drum very softly gives a higher proportion of fundamental; louder playing brings out more overtones. We use a bass drum with a 40" head on each side, and I believe it is 18" deep. One feels everything played on such a bass drum, especially when it's nearby. Fun!
The note that his body responded to wasn't really all that low -- the second A below middle C, written in the lowest space in the bass clef, 110 Hz. But this is on a head 29" in diameter. With about 4.58 square feet of vibrating drumhead, I can definitely move some air!
The range of the timpani (kettledrums) isn't very wide. Four drums (32, 29, 26 and 23 inches) are usually used. The lowest drum goes down as low as about 80 Hz, and the highest drum is rarely tuned higher than 175 Hz. When playing below 100 Hz, the amount of fundamental decreases rapidly.
The bass drum (or "gran cassa", big drum) is another beast entirely. It isn't tuned to a definite pitch, but the deepest part of the fundamental spread is often around 30 Hz or lower. Playing the drum very softly gives a higher proportion of fundamental; louder playing brings out more overtones. We use a bass drum with a 40" head on each side, and I believe it is 18" deep. One feels everything played on such a bass drum, especially when it's nearby. Fun!
g3dahl,
Thank you for those comments. You basically confirm what I am thinking that people seem to misinterpret that body sensation for much lower frequencies than in reality is required to create those body sensations. We have been bombarded by the use of and need for subwoofers for so long now that it seems that we have had buy-in to the premise that you need to get down into the extreme low frequencies to have that feeling. I remember that often in a live concert situation that the engineer would more than likely have a 60hz or there about filter cutting the extreme low bass to keep from a rumbling low frequency feedback situation. There was still plenty of bass energy even with the low bass cut from the signal to the PA.
Thank you for those comments. You basically confirm what I am thinking that people seem to misinterpret that body sensation for much lower frequencies than in reality is required to create those body sensations. We have been bombarded by the use of and need for subwoofers for so long now that it seems that we have had buy-in to the premise that you need to get down into the extreme low frequencies to have that feeling. I remember that often in a live concert situation that the engineer would more than likely have a 60hz or there about filter cutting the extreme low bass to keep from a rumbling low frequency feedback situation. There was still plenty of bass energy even with the low bass cut from the signal to the PA.
And please remember the forum rules.
Thank you Pano for reminding us.
At times, discussing the perception of sound may slide into discussing general perception of reality, which may touch sensitive topics.
I'll try to stick to audio topics, or, at least, avoid sensitive topics..
Thank you.
Felling the air move on the stage is one thing, while feeling the air move on the balcony, at the center-back of the concert hall (where I sit usually), is something different.
Indeed.
Feeling in one's body the air move may have to do more with the volume of sound played (combined with the hall's reverberation), than with the lowest notes.