I know this not strictly full range but I think it falls within the domain.
I found this old busted Hammond L101 in the streets of Frederiksberg.
Definitely not worth anything in itself since it's pretty badly banged up and the internals while complete and in relatively good shape will probably need more repairs and adjusting than anyone is willing to invest.
There is however a few of the components, among others the tube amp, the spring reverb and the drivers that seems worth salvaging.
The drivers are probably these: NOS Pair 12" Heppner Alnico Speakers Black Frame 20w | Reverb
Are there anyone who has experience with using one or both for general music?
I'm thinking mostly in an open baffle sub, but a set of these might also be interesting with a small FR driver for the top.
Haven't been able to find anything other than people using them in guitar amps.
I found this old busted Hammond L101 in the streets of Frederiksberg.
Definitely not worth anything in itself since it's pretty badly banged up and the internals while complete and in relatively good shape will probably need more repairs and adjusting than anyone is willing to invest.
There is however a few of the components, among others the tube amp, the spring reverb and the drivers that seems worth salvaging.
The drivers are probably these: NOS Pair 12" Heppner Alnico Speakers Black Frame 20w | Reverb
Are there anyone who has experience with using one or both for general music?
I'm thinking mostly in an open baffle sub, but a set of these might also be interesting with a small FR driver for the top.
Haven't been able to find anything other than people using them in guitar amps.
1st: Scrapping an electromagnetic Hammond is a sacrilege by itself :eek!.
2nd: The highest tone that a tone wheel generator can produce has a frequency of about 8 kHz (7898.88 Hz, to be precisely, for B5) and is sine wave. And that's the highest tone of a H-100 with it's extended 96 tone generator. The smaller generator in a L-100 won't even reach that frequency. Of course, due to key click the organ's frequency spectrum goes higher. But in the ancient days Hammond regarded key clicking as unwanted. So, why should the speakers in those organs have a wider frequency range than absolutely necessary?
In other words: Your speaker maybe useful as a guitar gear, but not for high fidelity reproduction.
Best regards!
2nd: The highest tone that a tone wheel generator can produce has a frequency of about 8 kHz (7898.88 Hz, to be precisely, for B5) and is sine wave. And that's the highest tone of a H-100 with it's extended 96 tone generator. The smaller generator in a L-100 won't even reach that frequency. Of course, due to key click the organ's frequency spectrum goes higher. But in the ancient days Hammond regarded key clicking as unwanted. So, why should the speakers in those organs have a wider frequency range than absolutely necessary?
In other words: Your speaker maybe useful as a guitar gear, but not for high fidelity reproduction.
Best regards!
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About your first point. Absolutely agree!
It's just not worth much to anyone in this shape. It's just too costly and involved to get working and presentable again.
Good specimens are not expensive on the used market either.
I'd be glad to give the whole thing away, provided I could have some kind of guarantee that the receiving party wouldn't just do the same thing I'm about to.
The model is one of the lowest end ones anyway. People who are serious about Hammonds go for larger models.
Keith Emerson bought these just to trash them in stage shows AFAIR.
Second point. Remember I'm talking about the drivers themselves, not the filters and amp.
These drivers where also used in church organs and other organ like instruments at the time, often in conjunction with FR drivers to cover the upper octaves.
As I wrote that is exactly what I'm contemplating.
Just looking for inspiration and advice.
It's just not worth much to anyone in this shape. It's just too costly and involved to get working and presentable again.
Good specimens are not expensive on the used market either.
I'd be glad to give the whole thing away, provided I could have some kind of guarantee that the receiving party wouldn't just do the same thing I'm about to.
The model is one of the lowest end ones anyway. People who are serious about Hammonds go for larger models.
Keith Emerson bought these just to trash them in stage shows AFAIR.
Second point. Remember I'm talking about the drivers themselves, not the filters and amp.
These drivers where also used in church organs and other organ like instruments at the time, often in conjunction with FR drivers to cover the upper octaves.
As I wrote that is exactly what I'm contemplating.
Just looking for inspiration and advice.
Only in the sense that it's suitable for a FAST system same as a '30s - '50s large radio, etc., single driver [~] open back console, so 'HIFI' for the period and still so into the '60s with an added [Motorola, Foster, etc.] tweeter horn, often with just a [then super cheap] PIO 2.2 uF cap.
I built quite a few fairly tall TL-like 'tower' speakers using these types of 'curb queen' parts for friends, coworkers wanting cheap 'HIFI'/party speakers with a small 'footprint' [college dorms, super small apartments], yet able to pound out what passed for the 'deep' bass of the day [prominent mid-bass].
Anyway, not 'HIFI' by today's standards, but if driven with a decent quality high output impedance, especially one with [tube] variable DF tone controls, it just might surprise you if you haven't ever been exposed to such systems.
GM
I’ll let it pass that you are using that awful backronym because it’s you GM ;-) but yes, as indicated that was the general idea I had.
And thank you for the insights and experience!
They where often used in a setup like that in commercial products, and the one in the organ they are currently in, is kind of like that already with the two drivers sharing duty. Only they are low passed quite a bit higher than you’d do in a speaker with fullrangers usually.
Some of the unanswered questions is:
And thank you for the insights and experience!
They where often used in a setup like that in commercial products, and the one in the organ they are currently in, is kind of like that already with the two drivers sharing duty. Only they are low passed quite a bit higher than you’d do in a speaker with fullrangers usually.
Some of the unanswered questions is:
- Are there any major peaks in these guys?
- What is the extension naked, up and down?
- T&S measurements, has anyone done any?
- Is it worth using the “high frequency” one?
- Are they really best run with a tube amp?
- Can they be used together in series to get down the ohms?
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i've up/re cycled a lot of organ loudspeakers.
Electric organ speakers
take a close look at the two drivers there's some differences in there construction, the cones first and the spider assemblies next, even though they are the same diameter one is tailored for bass the other for higher frequencies
Electric organ speakers
take a close look at the two drivers there's some differences in there construction, the cones first and the spider assemblies next, even though they are the same diameter one is tailored for bass the other for higher frequencies
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Thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for.
You did just what I’m contemplating.
Any further thoughts or experiments after a year?
And yeah, the drivers being different is quite apparent just by looking at them.
Is it worth taking them up to 6000 Hz or is it better to low pass at a more usual sub frequency?
PS. And of course in my previous post I meant parallel, not series.
You did just what I’m contemplating.
Any further thoughts or experiments after a year?
And yeah, the drivers being different is quite apparent just by looking at them.
Is it worth taking them up to 6000 Hz or is it better to low pass at a more usual sub frequency?
PS. And of course in my previous post I meant parallel, not series.
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i've used them as is and in a few instances added a fullrange or tweeter, personally i prefer the fullrange as a tweeter needs at minimum a cap for protection from low frequencies for me the drivers make a mechanical x-over that sounds smooth.
when it comes to mounting, open baffle or a box with no back(more like a U frame) gives good results with a minimum of fuss.
i've also used the bass drivers in traditional 2 and 3 way configurations with good results.
not by saying or raving about performance or special/magic just a good driver at an ultra cheap price that can still provide a good level of satisfaction, the secondary bonus for me is keeping stuff from going to the landfill!
when it comes to mounting, open baffle or a box with no back(more like a U frame) gives good results with a minimum of fuss.
i've also used the bass drivers in traditional 2 and 3 way configurations with good results.
not by saying or raving about performance or special/magic just a good driver at an ultra cheap price that can still provide a good level of satisfaction, the secondary bonus for me is keeping stuff from going to the landfill!
I don't follow your argument in that thread regarding the Percussion unit introducing additional 12 kHz harmonics. As the Percussion also receives it's tones from the TWG, no Percussion harmonic tone can be higher than the highest tone the generator produces.
And, as yet been said, Hammond certainly had no interest in reproducing the key click, as they regarded it as a fault that a pipe organ hasn't. In contrast they did everything to suppress it (decent HF roll off in both the amplifiers and the speakers, dedicated click filters in later organs, such as the E and H series).
Best regards!
And, as yet been said, Hammond certainly had no interest in reproducing the key click, as they regarded it as a fault that a pipe organ hasn't. In contrast they did everything to suppress it (decent HF roll off in both the amplifiers and the speakers, dedicated click filters in later organs, such as the E and H series).
Best regards!
have you tried them yourself the speakers that is?
for the record i've never said these where tremendous top end performers they cover the audio range reasonably well till approximately 8-10khz which works for me, so if your anal about top end you may think differently.
as to harmonics produced by the percussion module the next time i do a service call on an Hammond organ i'll see if i can get a measurement and see just where in the frequency range it is.
for the record i've never said these where tremendous top end performers they cover the audio range reasonably well till approximately 8-10khz which works for me, so if your anal about top end you may think differently.
as to harmonics produced by the percussion module the next time i do a service call on an Hammond organ i'll see if i can get a measurement and see just where in the frequency range it is.
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Don´t know how Percussion works, care to share a schematic?, but if as I suspect is some kind of switcher or triggered VCA to give envelope "attack" it would most probably be some kind of nonlinear circuit.
If so , such nonlinearity will definitely create harmonics which by definition are higher than fundamental note being played.
In general Hammond strove for linearity and low distortion but in a special effect unit such as a Percussion module, added harmonics might (should) be considered a bonus.
Under that premise, Audio response beyond highest fundamental should be expected/encouraged.
Just thinking aloud, I am thinking the sound difference between a drum skin being hit with fingertips/palm of your hand/soft (padded) mallet and,say, wood/metal/nylon tipped drumsticks.
Just for pleasure listen to what this accomplished master does with bare hands and a single skin
YouTube
Hayashi-Mamady duo. Grandmasters Mamady Keita (djembeföla) and Eitetsu Hayashi (taiko soloist)
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Yes, you're right with the VCA. As for organs such as B-3, C-3, RT-3, A-100, D-100, M-3 and M-100 the Percussion works as follows: A VCA, triggered by one of the existing key contacts and consisting of a 12AU7 in push-pull with input and output transformers, adds the 2nd (one octave higher than the 8' fundamental) or 3rd (one octave and one fifth higher) harmonics to the sound signal. It provides a rather fast attack and slow (selectable) decay characteristics without sustain.
Sorry, I don't have a schematic handy at the moment. Do you mind searching for one of the aforementioned organs, or for AO-14, AO-28, or AO-29?
Best regards!
Sorry, I don't have a schematic handy at the moment. Do you mind searching for one of the aforementioned organs, or for AO-14, AO-28, or AO-29?
Best regards!
Besides of those with integrated power stages, Hammond never ever provided NFB to their amplifier circuitries. As their first intention was a relatively cheap and lightweight substitution for a church organ, they relied in supressing unwanted harmonics by a limited bandwith of the amplifier circuitry and, as yet been said multiple times, by the speakers.
Best regards!
Best regards!
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