Hi Vlad - Jim has provided three MLTL designs for the Eikona 2 - a 30, 35 and 40" high designs. Jim has given us permission to put these on the website, which we'll do in the near future.
Jim's 30" design has already been built by one of our customers who also has our existing 38" MLTL design. He reports that despite the smaller size cabinet, the two compare very well for bass extension.
Colin
Jim's 30" design has already been built by one of our customers who also has our existing 38" MLTL design. He reports that despite the smaller size cabinet, the two compare very well for bass extension.
Colin
Closing this out. I scrapped the first set of enclosures in favor of something prebuilt. I purchased a pair of these:
http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-audio-knock-down-mdf-116-cu-ft-tower-speaker-cabinet--300-7066
Then quickly got to work
This was my first veneering attempt, so I went with a paper-backed veneer and a water-based contact cement. All in all, I believe the results were quite acceptable:
I used Arm-R-Coat oil based finished and applied three coats with 280g sanding in between, then two coats with #0000 steel wool burnishing in between. I then used plasti-dip aerosol to paint the baffle a flat black, and did the final assembly
Lastly, I purchased a pair of outriggers from Sound City and installed. I am very happy with these - worth their price. Here is the final setup - I still need to run the speaker cable under the floor:
I have run them with both my Tubelab 300B as well as my 805 SEs and have excellent results with both. Coming from the JX25s the bass is impressive, and a much smoother treble. Thanks again to Colin for all of his help and patience over the life of this project!
-Steve
http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-audio-knock-down-mdf-116-cu-ft-tower-speaker-cabinet--300-7066
Then quickly got to work
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This was my first veneering attempt, so I went with a paper-backed veneer and a water-based contact cement. All in all, I believe the results were quite acceptable:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I used Arm-R-Coat oil based finished and applied three coats with 280g sanding in between, then two coats with #0000 steel wool burnishing in between. I then used plasti-dip aerosol to paint the baffle a flat black, and did the final assembly
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Lastly, I purchased a pair of outriggers from Sound City and installed. I am very happy with these - worth their price. Here is the final setup - I still need to run the speaker cable under the floor:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have run them with both my Tubelab 300B as well as my 805 SEs and have excellent results with both. Coming from the JX25s the bass is impressive, and a much smoother treble. Thanks again to Colin for all of his help and patience over the life of this project!
-Steve
Sorry guys - bad links. Updated below:
Closing this out. I scrapped the first set of enclosures in favor of something prebuilt. I purchased a pair of these:
Denovo Audio Knock-Down MDF 1.16 cu. ft. Tower Speaker Cabinet
Then quickly got to work
This was my first veneering attempt, so I went with a paper-backed veneer and a water-based contact cement. All in all, I believe the results were quite acceptable:
I used Arm-R-Coat oil based finished and applied three coats with 280g sanding in between, then two coats with #0000 steel wool burnishing in between. I then used plasti-dip aerosol to paint the baffle a flat black, and did the final assembly
Lastly, I purchased a pair of outriggers from Sound City and installed. I am very happy with these - worth their price.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is the final setup - I still need to run the speaker cable under the floor:
I have run them with both my Tubelab 300B as well as my 805 SEs and have excellent results with both. Coming from the JX25s the bass is impressive, and a much smoother treble. Thanks again to Colin for all of his help and patience over the life of this project!
-Steve
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The Jordan is my first DIY speakers. I'm going to eventually make my own topic about it and add more details and info as I go. The short for now is that I just threw them in some generic subwoofer box until I decide what I want to do or if I wanted to keep them. Or even like the full range speaker sound. Had some issues, wasn't impressed at first, But after lots of tweaks, 1/0 AWG wire upgrades, cardas pure copper binding post upgrades, 6% silver solder, damping adjustments, rags thrown in here and there.....WOW. Blown away!
By this point the sound stage is absolutely immense. Wall to wall sound, layered, voices and instruments floating in mid air. Amazing separation between instruments, amazing detail, even the most subtle detail and room ambiance is all there, and yet so incredibly natural. Deep, deep sound stage too. Getting holographic 3D kind of sound. The Roger waters songs throw large clear sounds out into the room right beside me where I'm sitting. Like someone is talking to my ear next to me.
I know I need to eventually make some real cabinets that do this speaker justice, I'm almost afraid to touch anything right now though it's so incredible sounding. I still need to do some real damping and damping material to catch a couple peak decibels at certain notes. But hot dang I'm just enjoying them so much, my jaw is just on the floor every time I listen to them. Live recordings are my favorite, I hear the entire room and echos like I'm seriously there and the singer is right there on the stage. Like if someone blind folded you, sat you down, you'd think I brought you to the music venue.
With that said I would love to get that bottom end to be world class too. It's already so strong with bass you'd think big speakers or subs are hiding some place. But I realize these small drivers can only do so much. Would be nice to be able to incorporate some 10" drivers at some point.
Like I said I'll make a topic on everything I did one day, and this journey is far from over. Just wanted to share my experience with them so far.
By this point the sound stage is absolutely immense. Wall to wall sound, layered, voices and instruments floating in mid air. Amazing separation between instruments, amazing detail, even the most subtle detail and room ambiance is all there, and yet so incredibly natural. Deep, deep sound stage too. Getting holographic 3D kind of sound. The Roger waters songs throw large clear sounds out into the room right beside me where I'm sitting. Like someone is talking to my ear next to me.
I know I need to eventually make some real cabinets that do this speaker justice, I'm almost afraid to touch anything right now though it's so incredible sounding. I still need to do some real damping and damping material to catch a couple peak decibels at certain notes. But hot dang I'm just enjoying them so much, my jaw is just on the floor every time I listen to them. Live recordings are my favorite, I hear the entire room and echos like I'm seriously there and the singer is right there on the stage. Like if someone blind folded you, sat you down, you'd think I brought you to the music venue.
With that said I would love to get that bottom end to be world class too. It's already so strong with bass you'd think big speakers or subs are hiding some place. But I realize these small drivers can only do so much. Would be nice to be able to incorporate some 10" drivers at some point.
Like I said I'll make a topic on everything I did one day, and this journey is far from over. Just wanted to share my experience with them so far.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Steven - thanks for making the images visible. It looks like they've come out very well. Good find on the enclosures.
v1001 - I'm glad you're happy with the Eikona. I'll pass your comments onto Ted. From the looks of the cabinet, the Eikona is probably rolling off quite early if it's a sealed enclosure. What are the internal dimensions? We have a MathCad design here which might be a similar box size. Customer feedback is that it has a good bass response - almost as good as the taller MLTL designs for the Eikona.
v1001 - I'm glad you're happy with the Eikona. I'll pass your comments onto Ted. From the looks of the cabinet, the Eikona is probably rolling off quite early if it's a sealed enclosure. What are the internal dimensions? We have a MathCad design here which might be a similar box size. Customer feedback is that it has a good bass response - almost as good as the taller MLTL designs for the Eikona.
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V1001,
Thanks for sharing your story and welcome to the world of full range! It's nice to hear stories like this and helps remind us all why we got into full range. Given you are repurposing a sub box it looks quite nice and if you like the sound keep as is. You might find additional improvements to current box with some things to smooth out diffraction ripples. This will clean up the smoothness and improve imaging and clarity.
1. Flush mount the driver so bezel is same level as light brown wood baffle. If no power tools you can do this with a hand chisel and xacto. Alternatively, find a material suitable for exterior visual appeal that is same thickness as bezel (thin rare wood ply, linoleum, etc) and cut a perfect hole and glue on top of current baffle.
2. The stepped baffle with lighter wood has nice visual but that square edge step followed by step of main box adds ripples in frequency response. Maybe put round corner on it and make it same as outer box.
3. A square baffle intrinsically has more diffraction than a rectangular one. A rectangular is worse than a trapezoid. Actually a compromise may be a trapezoidal baffle for the driver fitted over the square box. Round over on baffle still. Trapezoid is still within extents of square box so a trapezoidal suprabaffle.
These seem like cosmetic things but for 800Hz to 7kHz range they can reduce ripple in 1 to 3dB range for free. That's significant and audible. You might want to invest in a calibrated mic. Get a third party calibrated one like a UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum Labs (ca $100). It and software like REW (free) is all you need. It will quantitatively show you when adjustments have a positive or negative effect.
Btw, glad your wires/solder/posts help. Around here in full range, many of us have been down this road and you may find not much agreement there with sonic audibility of those things. Where do you even get 1/0 gage wire? Is that automotive battery cable
Many of us use typically 20 to 24 gage solid core copper, 16 or 18 gage multi strand for hookup between amp and speaker. I agree good binding posts are helpful but the $10 gold plated brass is probably fine. These drivers operate at typically 1 watt to 10 or 15 watts. You just don't need that thick of a wire for typical operation. V=iR and typical volts at normal music is no more than 10 volts (loud). 10 volts / 8 ohms is less than 1 amp. Put a 6dB crest factor and 4 amps max. Hope that helps.
What amp are you using by the way?
Thanks for sharing your story and welcome to the world of full range! It's nice to hear stories like this and helps remind us all why we got into full range. Given you are repurposing a sub box it looks quite nice and if you like the sound keep as is. You might find additional improvements to current box with some things to smooth out diffraction ripples. This will clean up the smoothness and improve imaging and clarity.
1. Flush mount the driver so bezel is same level as light brown wood baffle. If no power tools you can do this with a hand chisel and xacto. Alternatively, find a material suitable for exterior visual appeal that is same thickness as bezel (thin rare wood ply, linoleum, etc) and cut a perfect hole and glue on top of current baffle.
2. The stepped baffle with lighter wood has nice visual but that square edge step followed by step of main box adds ripples in frequency response. Maybe put round corner on it and make it same as outer box.
3. A square baffle intrinsically has more diffraction than a rectangular one. A rectangular is worse than a trapezoid. Actually a compromise may be a trapezoidal baffle for the driver fitted over the square box. Round over on baffle still. Trapezoid is still within extents of square box so a trapezoidal suprabaffle.
These seem like cosmetic things but for 800Hz to 7kHz range they can reduce ripple in 1 to 3dB range for free. That's significant and audible. You might want to invest in a calibrated mic. Get a third party calibrated one like a UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum Labs (ca $100). It and software like REW (free) is all you need. It will quantitatively show you when adjustments have a positive or negative effect.
Btw, glad your wires/solder/posts help. Around here in full range, many of us have been down this road and you may find not much agreement there with sonic audibility of those things. Where do you even get 1/0 gage wire? Is that automotive battery cable
Many of us use typically 20 to 24 gage solid core copper, 16 or 18 gage multi strand for hookup between amp and speaker. I agree good binding posts are helpful but the $10 gold plated brass is probably fine. These drivers operate at typically 1 watt to 10 or 15 watts. You just don't need that thick of a wire for typical operation. V=iR and typical volts at normal music is no more than 10 volts (loud). 10 volts / 8 ohms is less than 1 amp. Put a 6dB crest factor and 4 amps max. Hope that helps.
What amp are you using by the way?
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I love Steven-H's speakers. Those cabinets are really nice. Would love to have something like that. Some day I'll do something nicer.
Colin - The boxes are .5 cubic feet. I did have to cut a port in the back, because it sounded really strange and off without a port. I know it's not the best dimensions for a cabinet but I think the temporary damping helped balance it out. I'll do a proper cabinet some day. But it still sounds fantastic so I'm just enjoying them. I actually think they still look nice for what they are.
LENGTH: 11 1/2"
DEPTH: 9 1/2"
HEIGHT: 11 1/2"
xrk971 - I definitely plan on doing a proper box some day and will do it right. It should look professional when I'm done. I do remodeling as part of my living, so have all the tools and such. Will still be a learning experience of course though as I've never built speaker cabinets before. I just don't have the time right now, I have a 3 story house I bought some time ago that I need to finish and am far enough behind as it is. And I wanted to get a feel for if this is the direction I want to go with my system.
I'll pick up a mic some day for testing too.
As far as brass. For most systems it might be fine. But to get past to a whole other level I've found over and over that getting rid of brass and replacing all the brass in the entire system brings it to a level unreached before. Brass is such a horrible conductor and really does muck the sound up and should have no place in audio. It's like you're driving down a nice copper highway in a fast Lamborghini and then hit a brass mud pit. Which brings me to the wire. Which seems overkill at first I'll agree. I'm a big pusher of thick wire and I already had 4 AWG. I honestly thought that's got to be enough. But went with 1/0 AWG because I needed longer wires and the price was close enough, I thought, what the heck, why not, lets experiment more. That's when I was blown away by the difference in sound. But it takes having very resolving amps, replacing all the connectors, RCA's, binding posts, everything in the system with pure copper. The signal stays so pure and true and no loss or resistance that what comes out of the speakers is just an amazing difference. So much so that it's like I bought new amps and a new dac. That also means having a room that has room treatments too so the sound that comes out doesn't get mucked up. I have a bunch of sound panels I made spread around the room. Anyway I know people get in huge debates about wire size and such and I don't want to do that here. I'm just saying when brass is like 70% less conductive than copper it can't be good to have in the system. And from all my testing and experimenting I've had amazing results getting rid of brass, using 6% solder, and all that allowed for huge improvements when thicker wire is added. It's not even subtle, it's like a revelation. So for me it's the right thing to do and I could never go back. (oh to answer your question it's high grade welding cable).
My amps are Nuforce reference 9 V3SE.
These amps are just crazy resolving, fast, and powerful. Upgraded of course with the full copper binding posts, and full copper RCA's. Nuforce DAC 9. Direct to amps. I don't like preamps in the signal paths. Connected with custom made pure copper end RCA's interconnects that have 14 gauge solid core wire.
Anyway I could always hear the crossovers in speakers. It's always bothered me. Full range speakers are just so natural and smooth and real. And less in the signal path to get in the way with no crossovers. It's been a really pleasant and enjoyable change.
Colin - The boxes are .5 cubic feet. I did have to cut a port in the back, because it sounded really strange and off without a port. I know it's not the best dimensions for a cabinet but I think the temporary damping helped balance it out. I'll do a proper cabinet some day. But it still sounds fantastic so I'm just enjoying them. I actually think they still look nice for what they are.
LENGTH: 11 1/2"
DEPTH: 9 1/2"
HEIGHT: 11 1/2"
xrk971 - I definitely plan on doing a proper box some day and will do it right. It should look professional when I'm done. I do remodeling as part of my living, so have all the tools and such. Will still be a learning experience of course though as I've never built speaker cabinets before. I just don't have the time right now, I have a 3 story house I bought some time ago that I need to finish and am far enough behind as it is. And I wanted to get a feel for if this is the direction I want to go with my system.
I'll pick up a mic some day for testing too.
As far as brass. For most systems it might be fine. But to get past to a whole other level I've found over and over that getting rid of brass and replacing all the brass in the entire system brings it to a level unreached before. Brass is such a horrible conductor and really does muck the sound up and should have no place in audio. It's like you're driving down a nice copper highway in a fast Lamborghini and then hit a brass mud pit. Which brings me to the wire. Which seems overkill at first I'll agree. I'm a big pusher of thick wire and I already had 4 AWG. I honestly thought that's got to be enough. But went with 1/0 AWG because I needed longer wires and the price was close enough, I thought, what the heck, why not, lets experiment more. That's when I was blown away by the difference in sound. But it takes having very resolving amps, replacing all the connectors, RCA's, binding posts, everything in the system with pure copper. The signal stays so pure and true and no loss or resistance that what comes out of the speakers is just an amazing difference. So much so that it's like I bought new amps and a new dac. That also means having a room that has room treatments too so the sound that comes out doesn't get mucked up. I have a bunch of sound panels I made spread around the room. Anyway I know people get in huge debates about wire size and such and I don't want to do that here. I'm just saying when brass is like 70% less conductive than copper it can't be good to have in the system. And from all my testing and experimenting I've had amazing results getting rid of brass, using 6% solder, and all that allowed for huge improvements when thicker wire is added. It's not even subtle, it's like a revelation. So for me it's the right thing to do and I could never go back. (oh to answer your question it's high grade welding cable).
My amps are Nuforce reference 9 V3SE.
These amps are just crazy resolving, fast, and powerful. Upgraded of course with the full copper binding posts, and full copper RCA's. Nuforce DAC 9. Direct to amps. I don't like preamps in the signal paths. Connected with custom made pure copper end RCA's interconnects that have 14 gauge solid core wire.
Anyway I could always hear the crossovers in speakers. It's always bothered me. Full range speakers are just so natural and smooth and real. And less in the signal path to get in the way with no crossovers. It's been a really pleasant and enjoyable change.
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Hi!
I'm considering building four pairs of the DCR for a digital organ project (Hauptwerk). With Hauptwerk you can use an 8 channel firewire box (MOTU etc) and direct particular instruments at particular channels. I've not decided what amps to put in between or whether to run series or parallel. Are there any 8 channel valve amps around?
A 16 feet stop has as lowest frequency 32 Hz. A 32 feet stop has as lowest frequency 16 Hz. I'd only get down there with my Definitive Tech SuperCube 6000 I think. It shakes the foundatons of the house!
Channels Instruments
1-2 All 16' & 8' pedals , reeds, midi notes 36-48 and 16' manual stops. Stereo mixed with sub.
3-4 Manuals, reeds and strings and 4' pedal stops - C,D,E,F#,G#,A# ... C#,D#,F,G,A,B
5-8 Manuals, principles, flutes - C,C#,D... D#,E,F... F#,G,G#... A,A#,B
Channels 1 - 4 will be at ear level and 5-8 above 1-4.
Would the Marantz MM8003 ( 8 ch 140W amp ) be ok to run the DCRs? I picked this up a few years ago for ~£300 ex demo.
I would be interested to work with anyone here to develop an organ console speaker system based on the Eikona-2. Maybe dropping back to a single driver for each channel.
Let me know your thoughts.
David.
I'm considering building four pairs of the DCR for a digital organ project (Hauptwerk). With Hauptwerk you can use an 8 channel firewire box (MOTU etc) and direct particular instruments at particular channels. I've not decided what amps to put in between or whether to run series or parallel. Are there any 8 channel valve amps around?
A 16 feet stop has as lowest frequency 32 Hz. A 32 feet stop has as lowest frequency 16 Hz. I'd only get down there with my Definitive Tech SuperCube 6000 I think. It shakes the foundatons of the house!
Channels Instruments
1-2 All 16' & 8' pedals , reeds, midi notes 36-48 and 16' manual stops. Stereo mixed with sub.
3-4 Manuals, reeds and strings and 4' pedal stops - C,D,E,F#,G#,A# ... C#,D#,F,G,A,B
5-8 Manuals, principles, flutes - C,C#,D... D#,E,F... F#,G,G#... A,A#,B
Channels 1 - 4 will be at ear level and 5-8 above 1-4.
Would the Marantz MM8003 ( 8 ch 140W amp ) be ok to run the DCRs? I picked this up a few years ago for ~£300 ex demo.
I would be interested to work with anyone here to develop an organ console speaker system based on the Eikona-2. Maybe dropping back to a single driver for each channel.
Let me know your thoughts.
David.
Hi - the Mathcad design we have is (internal size) 12 x 9 x 12". Port diameter is 3/4" x 4.5" long. Not far off the size of your box. We have had feedback from a customer who built it, who said:
"Mid range and upper response is a per normal for the Eikonas – clear, detailed and giving a stable well- defined stereo image. (As expected)
The design produces a low frequency response superior to the Reflex 7s. However, to my ears, the intensity (SPL) of extended response from the MLTL12s does not compare to that of the MLTL38s – despite the frequency response curves of the two designs being quite similar. I would estimate that below about 40HZ the 12s are -3 to -6db down compared with the 38s, with the ultimate low frequency limit being similar for both designs.
Nevertheless the 12s produce a surprisingly good bass response from what looks to be a small cabinet (viewed from the front in elevation)."
If you want more details, I have the Mathcad graph and photos of the build which I can try and post here.
SGPU - What size room are you planning to use the Eikonas in and what is the maximum SPL you wish to achieve?
https://www.hauptwerk.com
SuperCube 6000 | Definitive Technology
I'm glad to see the Supercube is a sub. Even the MLTL Eikonas won't get to 16Hz.
The DCR will go down to around 50Hz. Doubling the Eikonas gives greater power handling and sensitivity (if wired in parallel). The Marantz looks like it has plenty of power but is rated to 6Ω rather than 4Ω (correct me if I'm wrong) in which case series connection (12Ω) would be safer. I run a pair of Aurora 800s here with a Marantz AVR also wired in series and it works well and with much lower power than your 8003.
Marantz UK | MM8003
The 8003 looks a bargain for £300, btw.
Used that way and in conjunction with the sub, the DCRs should work well.
https://www.hauptwerk.com
SuperCube 6000 | Definitive Technology
I'm glad to see the Supercube is a sub. Even the MLTL Eikonas won't get to 16Hz.
The DCR will go down to around 50Hz. Doubling the Eikonas gives greater power handling and sensitivity (if wired in parallel). The Marantz looks like it has plenty of power but is rated to 6Ω rather than 4Ω (correct me if I'm wrong) in which case series connection (12Ω) would be safer. I run a pair of Aurora 800s here with a Marantz AVR also wired in series and it works well and with much lower power than your 8003.
Marantz UK | MM8003
The 8003 looks a bargain for £300, btw.
Used that way and in conjunction with the sub, the DCRs should work well.
Colin,
The organ practice room is 22ft x 15ft. With room for a dozen seats. SPL wise 70 peak to 80 ish would be OK. I believe two DCR speakers might do the trick, maybe four MLTL 38s.
I'm also investigating an organ speaker system for in the church itself. Ours is a 800yo doomsday church. We recently had the pews taken out, replaced by under floor heating and oak flooring.
The old organ in church is beyond economical repair so I've been tasked to remove it and build something digital. We'd like it to be discrete. I don't want big PA black boxes around or white metallic boxes. My first choice is Triad Gold 6s. They're less than 90mm off the wall. We could cover with with a nice acoustic fabric / banner / or tapestry. Dispersion is great too. Another option is Definitive Tech UIW.
Here's a digital organ to be wowed by.
Installations: A Higher Power | Sound & Vision
I'm guessing 10 to 14 Eikona drivers from a localised area would not be sufficient to fill a church 13m wide, 17m long with an full range beautiful organ sound peaking at 80 ish. The congregation averages 50 people so we want to hear it above singing voices.
Interesting project!
The organ practice room is 22ft x 15ft. With room for a dozen seats. SPL wise 70 peak to 80 ish would be OK. I believe two DCR speakers might do the trick, maybe four MLTL 38s.
I'm also investigating an organ speaker system for in the church itself. Ours is a 800yo doomsday church. We recently had the pews taken out, replaced by under floor heating and oak flooring.
The old organ in church is beyond economical repair so I've been tasked to remove it and build something digital. We'd like it to be discrete. I don't want big PA black boxes around or white metallic boxes. My first choice is Triad Gold 6s. They're less than 90mm off the wall. We could cover with with a nice acoustic fabric / banner / or tapestry. Dispersion is great too. Another option is Definitive Tech UIW.
Here's a digital organ to be wowed by.
Installations: A Higher Power | Sound & Vision
I'm guessing 10 to 14 Eikona drivers from a localised area would not be sufficient to fill a church 13m wide, 17m long with an full range beautiful organ sound peaking at 80 ish. The congregation averages 50 people so we want to hear it above singing voices.
Interesting project!
Some quick renders with four DCRs in place. First driver is 2m from floor level. The vertical angle from first driver to our new front row of seating is ~ 18'deg.
I would probably set all four as some instruments and stereo mix others. It would be a trial and error.
I would probably set all four as some instruments and stereo mix others. It would be a trial and error.
Attachments
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So he's saying whatever practical width * depth yields 56 square inches, e.g., 7" * 8".
Normally, a golden or acoustic ratio is a good plan from an acoustical POV, but not nearly as useful in a high aspect ratio cab as in a rectangular one, though a 0.618:1.0 or 1.0:1.414 ratio is known to be pleasing to the eye.
Personally, I want the widest baffle practical, though most folks here want the most narrow, so basically use whatever 'floats yer boat'.
GM
Personally, I want the widest baffle practical, though most folks here want the most narrow, so basically use whatever 'floats yer boat'.
GM
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