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The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)
The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)
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Old 15th June 2019, 12:58 PM   #5011
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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Yes they are. These are plots that resemble the way APL_TDA shows it's plots. I've nagged John about it for a long time and at a certain point he caved in and just included it (*). I find them handy to view the timing. I'll show the parameters I've used:

The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)-wavelet-jpg
As said, primary use is timing, nothing more, nothing less but it does show pré ringing and the room as well, be it that the focus lies on the peak.
Very comparable to/compattable with APL_TDA's way of showing the timing.

The plot a few pages back with a comparison between a Danley horn and the array were not done with these numbers! No normalising was used for that one and it showed SPL in dB, not in percentage. So that's using these wavelets for quite a different goal.

(*) In all honesty I can't even say if I played any role in his choice to add this feature but I did ask and discuss this feature with him a couple of times.
In this thread he showed early results which developed into that neat feature.
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Last edited by wesayso; 15th June 2019 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 15th June 2019, 01:07 PM   #5012
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thanks. now it looks familiar, for a chuckle, look at my last post

Full range line array for wall or corner placement
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Old 15th June 2019, 02:11 PM   #5013
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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Different graphs for different tasks . Looks like you'll be busy with some room adjustments. Some DRC tweaking may go a long way though. Your room is still adding energy, but it is quite even in balance (aside from the 200 Hz mode).
Does it (the dip) stay at the same spot if you move the array further from the back wall?

I used to go over the Fourier spectrograms while slowly increasing time to get a feel for what was happening out in the room, wavelets weren't introduced back then.
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Old 15th June 2019, 02:17 PM   #5014
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I'm still having trouble getting DRC to do what I want it to. I wonder if all that excess energy is what is keeping it from doing much
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:17 PM   #5015
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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It would certainly back down in areas where there's excess energy. It also skips the deep nulls from processing. As it should. The better the room conditions, the better the correction will look. While the frequency dependent views are excellent to see the first wave front, adjusting tonality needs slightly longer windows. Usually the room fills in the small stuff pretty well, see the predictions posted on your thread.
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Old 17th June 2019, 09:42 AM   #5016
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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I'm quite happy with this new form of processing. I think it's time to move on to finishing the subs. Who knows, this might increase the performance if I get it all to play well together.

The openness, dynamics and imaging as well as great tonality are all there. I think/believe the mid/side EQ is all that one needs to counter the Stereo cross talk after all. So no more crazy experiments for a while, this is the third time that mid/side EQ won the battle for me.

The measurements with the foam ball helped a lot, I'm glad I did those. While there may still be some finesse's to fine tune, this is the closest I've come to be able to incorporate all that I like into one mix of DSP.

Over the coming days I'll try and upgrade the HT mode too. That one still uses the old files and a shuffler. Not bad at all, but not as good as this new EQ scheme, derived from the foam ball measurements.

Due to busy schedules at work I've put off finishing the sub-woofers. So I hope to find the energy and time to get started in the coming weeks. I still need to order a few parts and then nothing stands in the way of getting it done.
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:35 PM   #5017
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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More listening, still pleased. Experimented with a linear phase target file vs minimum phase. Only slight differences in the plots, but I do have a favorite.
FR looks identical with 6 cycle or 25 ms gated and smoothed. It's the phase and thus the timing that differs. Even un-smoothed they are hard to tell apart.

I may have some ideas on improvement, time will tell...

For anyone interested on what they get pré peak or in other words: pré-ringing: Use REW's IR windows with these values:
The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)-pr-ringing-jpg

If you don't use any smoothing, it will show what happens before that first peak. Sort of a sanity check for those manipulating phase.
Or linearising crossovers for that matter...
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Old 26th June 2019, 09:23 AM   #5018
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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Still working on the mid/side EQ. Tricky business... if one makes the difference between mid and side larger, you actually reduce the dynamic range you have.
This is because the two are interlinked, no way around that.

A little goes a long way though. Still playing with it to hear what it does. Too aggressive settings eats up little details, but we might not need aggressive at all. It works wonders for the phantom part, it can make improvements for the tonal balance between center and sides but as said... it is a thin line.

- A boost of the side introduces an inverse signal in the opposite channel. As demonstrated before on this thread.
- A boost on the phantom mid also creates a boost of side panned material (also noted previously on this thread).

So why bother with it at all? Because of what it does for the phantom center as well as tonal balance. Get it right and you get a 3D holographic stage that is quite convincing.

Slowly but surely I'm trying to learn all of the inns and outs. Trying hard to remember my previous experiences and creating new ones. Right now I'm on a small break, the Dutch TT is coming up again. So my little town is turning into a sweet spot of festivities again .
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Old 26th June 2019, 10:20 PM   #5019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
...Right now I'm on a small break, the Dutch TT is coming up again. So my little town is turning into a sweet spot of festivities again .
Whatever is planned or happens have a best break or party
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:51 AM   #5020
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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I survived another TT-week here and I am back at it...
The mid/side tweaks remain a delicate matter. I do believe I'm making progress, though my listening time today got cut short.
I'm trying to learn what to compensate for and how to do it. Earlier I stated the mid/side might have to be minimum phase EQ, well, scrap that. It simply doesn't work, as the side info gets melted together too much and you end up with a sort of mono mix that extends to the sides.
Details that rely on phase differences fall off and you do notice that quite a lot. Here it's an advantage I use a set of songs I've heard a thousand times so I "know" or "feel" when something is missing. A check with headphones helps too.
As soon as I was back on linear phase EQ, things improved a lot. I found the cause of that in a lot of virtual sims. This made me aware of what's going on at the ears, and why I lost that amount of detail.

The tonal balance sounds sweet and good, after a few more tweaks. Tweaks that moved it further to the Harmon balance to be honest. Easy enough to try. World of difference in perception though.

I'm trying to learn what to compensate for and what to leave as is. That seems to be the trick to move forwards. Keeping in mind the "S-curve" theory seems to help a great deal. I'm going back trough a lot of previous measurements and data to look for clues. That, combined with sims shows what's really happening and why we hear what we hear.

Some tweaks are subtle, others do stand out. The difference between minimum phase mid/side EQ and linear phase for instance is more than subtle.
I'm going to take my time (as far as I have it ) to find the optimum balance.
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