Hello,
I've been fixing some audio equipment for the last few years and wanted to get a bit more serious about it, so I decided to buy some equipment.
The bare minimum would be a good multimeter and a soldering iron but I want to be able to calibrate a few things if possible (r2r's, compressors, analog crt scopes etc.. ) . My budget for now is around 2k max which I know isn't too much but I hope to make do.
After looking at the options I'm completely lost but have settled on some possibilities.
Keithley 2015 can be found for around 600 bucks and does seem to be worth it for me because of the extra thd functionality.
I'm not really sure though if the thd function is adequate , I think it goes down to 0,001% noise with external generator, but is this enough ?
Other option would be a new 5 1/2 digits dmm around the same price but I would need to find instruments for thd/noise/db measurements.
On the soldering side I can find the jbc cd-1bqe for about 300 euros which seems good. I would love to have a desoldering pump but can't find any station under 1k so that again is not an option .
I already have a ds1054z and for now it serves me fine so not looking to upgrade that right now.
I can see for audio analysis and signal generation a computer with a sound card could be adequate(?) . I have an orion 32 I could use.
Also looking at the de-5000 for my lcr needs.
Is any of this really a good idea ???
Thank you .
I've been fixing some audio equipment for the last few years and wanted to get a bit more serious about it, so I decided to buy some equipment.
The bare minimum would be a good multimeter and a soldering iron but I want to be able to calibrate a few things if possible (r2r's, compressors, analog crt scopes etc.. ) . My budget for now is around 2k max which I know isn't too much but I hope to make do.
After looking at the options I'm completely lost but have settled on some possibilities.
Keithley 2015 can be found for around 600 bucks and does seem to be worth it for me because of the extra thd functionality.
I'm not really sure though if the thd function is adequate , I think it goes down to 0,001% noise with external generator, but is this enough ?
Other option would be a new 5 1/2 digits dmm around the same price but I would need to find instruments for thd/noise/db measurements.
On the soldering side I can find the jbc cd-1bqe for about 300 euros which seems good. I would love to have a desoldering pump but can't find any station under 1k so that again is not an option .
I already have a ds1054z and for now it serves me fine so not looking to upgrade that right now.
I can see for audio analysis and signal generation a computer with a sound card could be adequate(?) . I have an orion 32 I could use.
Also looking at the de-5000 for my lcr needs.
Is any of this really a good idea ???
Thank you .
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A have a triple channel hameg psu, can't really remember the model right now. A unit-61e and a smaller uni-t for DVM. For signal generation I use an old farnell lfm-4 and also have a variac. As mentioned I own a rigol ds1054z with the included attenuator probes.
Hi,
I've been in a similar situation and eventually bought some new as well as used stuff, some cheap ebay stuff and some (formerly expensive) A-brand stuff .... and I'm not finished ... rather TEA infected
On my website under 'Test-Lab' some of my devices are presented and reviewed.
I'd be happy if it helps You in the decision process.
Building the lab will take time, patience and often requires some luck, especially when You intend to get some used A-brand gear.
For audio analyzing a soundcard based system suffices ... most professional systems are basically just that ... a bit pimped though with signal conditioning circuitry and specialized software package.
Two 'affordable' commercial solutions I know of are the Quant Asylum QA401 and Digilent AD2 ... the latter more of a onefitsall mobile lab while the QA401 concentrates on audio.
jauu
Calvin
I've been in a similar situation and eventually bought some new as well as used stuff, some cheap ebay stuff and some (formerly expensive) A-brand stuff .... and I'm not finished ... rather TEA infected
On my website under 'Test-Lab' some of my devices are presented and reviewed.
I'd be happy if it helps You in the decision process.
Building the lab will take time, patience and often requires some luck, especially when You intend to get some used A-brand gear.
For audio analyzing a soundcard based system suffices ... most professional systems are basically just that ... a bit pimped though with signal conditioning circuitry and specialized software package.
Two 'affordable' commercial solutions I know of are the Quant Asylum QA401 and Digilent AD2 ... the latter more of a onefitsall mobile lab while the QA401 concentrates on audio.
jauu
Calvin
Thank you, I understand that but there are things I need to do which I totally can't. Accurate volt meter for calibrating things I think is a must. Also it would be nice if it could measure db.
Basically I finished repairing my scamp s01, eventide h910, revox a77, tek 455. And I have no way to follow the service manuals on calibration instructions without the right equipment.
Hi,
I've been in a similar situation and eventually bought some new as well as used stuff, some cheap ebay stuff and some (formerly expensive) A-brand stuff .... and I'm not finished ... rather TEA infected
On my website under 'Test-Lab' some of my devices are presented and reviewed.
I'd be happy if it helps You in the decision process.
Building the lab will take time, patience and often requires some luck, especially when You intend to get some used A-brand gear.
For audio analyzing a soundcard based system suffices ... most professional systems are basically just that ... a bit pimped though with signal conditioning circuitry and specialized software package.
Two 'affordable' commercial solutions I know of are the Quant Asylum QA401 and Digilent AD2 ... the latter more of a onefitsall mobile lab while the QA401 concentrates on audio.
jauu
Calvin
Thank you Calvin, amazing resource.
I have experience with most of what you would be interested in. The Keithley 2015 is really capable but the THD is more of a go-nogo feature. It doesn't give analytical insight. There is a version with harmonic analysis but for audio servicing a 3 1/52 digit meter is more than enough for DC. I would recommend a QA401 and a good used bench DVM, Keithley or Fluke. 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 digits are almost too many and make for slower response.
A Fluke 8060A can be had for around $100 on eBay and they are exceptional with dB and frequency measurement well suited to audio. And very portable. Also good for the budget (they were not cheap new).
You will need probes, cables, a dummy load etc. which can go through more $$$ than it seems like it should.
A Fluke 8060A can be had for around $100 on eBay and they are exceptional with dB and frequency measurement well suited to audio. And very portable. Also good for the budget (they were not cheap new).
You will need probes, cables, a dummy load etc. which can go through more $$$ than it seems like it should.
If you want to do surface mount you need a good rework station
The 5 Best Hot Air Rework Stations Reviews and Buying Guide
The 5 Best Hot Air Rework Stations Reviews and Buying Guide
So the 2015 is out of the question if the THD isn't good enough.
What I don't like on the 8060a is that the db measurement is always referenced at 600ohm. I found the 8921a which seems to solve this problem but it's way overpriced for what it is, I'll see if I can find it locally.
Any suggestions for a good dummy load ? I really thought I could get away for some time by using bulbs, resistors etc...
Do you think the QA401 would make for much a better choice than the "autoranger for soundcards" and a good interface ?
For probes I'm already set for my scope and found a beautiful ProbeMasters set for a good price with a whole lot of accesories that will take care of the multimeter needs.
I have one of those atten everybody seemed to suggest a few years back and I'm pretty happy with. Mostly using the iron for soldering smd though. Useful on desoldering never the less.
I went down a similar path to yours.
Since audio is but a hobby for me, I didn't want to dedicate a large space for older test gear that might get used a couple dozen hours per year. I also don't mind spending a little more time to do a measurement than would be sensible in a time-equals-money environment. My results aren't part of any business. If I choose to publish any results in these pages or elsewhere, I make clear that they are the work of an amateur. If people don't like that, they can just ignore me - I'm used to that and find it perfectly reasonable.
On the other hand, I did want to be able to make good measurements that are repeatable and sensitive enough to be useful in testing out ideas.
Money wasn't the primary consideration, although it certainly did apply. Honestly, for me, I prefer finding an elegant and clever solution rather than throwing money at a problem. However, I fully acknowledge that is my own psychological flaw but I'm willing to go on regardless. As they say, Your Mileage Probably Does Vary...
Here's what I did.
I already owned a Fluke 87 series something, so that was a start. I also owned a suitable Powerstat for controlling AC line voltage. Plus, a computer with USB ports.
I've added a DE-5000 LCR meter that you mentioned. It compares very well with expensive routinely calibrated gear I have access to in my day job.
A Digilent Analog Discovery 2 gives me an oscilloscope that covers most of my needs. If I was fixing gear most of my day, I'd buy something more sophisticated that is stand alone. But, the AD2 lets me make square wave measurements, frequency response measurements way beyond the audio band, capture glitches, and all that stuff. I built a small fixture that also allows me to make measurements of gain and phase margin for closed loop amplifiers. Another purchased fixture allows me to characterize passive components from DC to several MHz, complete with curves. That somewhat overlaps with the DE-5000, but each has its advantages.
A Peak Atlas DCA75 lets me measure most semiconductors. I can also attach it to the computer for curve tracing. Very easy to use.
I bought a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface to use with a calibrated microphone so that I could characterize and refine the performance of our listening/living room. The volume controls make it a little fiddly when trying to make distortion measurements on electronics, but an AutoRanger fixes a lot of that.
In order to make distortion measurements I bought a couple low distortion audio oscillators from our own Victor here on DIYAudio. These are really great, he's really great to deal with, and everybody just raves about these. I put them each in their own box. I also built some passive notch filters designed by Samuel Groner, with circuit boards purchased through a group buy here on DIYAudio. The combination of the Victor generators and the notch filters lets me measure well below -140 dB relative to the applied tone. That's pretty good.
Mostly because I liked the combination of performance and the integration with software, I also ended up buying a QA401. This is also a great product and gets around the fiddliness of the 2i2 approach. Of course, it's not the latest Audio Precision level, but very good indeed, especially for about 20 dB less money (40 dB if money is considered as potential - voltage - instead of power.) The QA480 generator and notch filter in combination with the QA401 lets me measure to around -150 dBc, and that's for the second harmonic. Other harmonics are better.
I also built a Quasimodo test fixture designed by Mark Johnson that along with the AD2 makes it easy to determine the best damping networks for power transformers.
More recently, I purchased a TinySA spectrum analyzer. This is mostly for some RF testing, but it also works very well for locating high frequency oscillations in audio amplifiers. This little gadget is really amazing when I compare it to what I used in my work lab for serious measurements just a couple decades ago.
Also, I bought a NanoVNA V2 Plus4 network analyzer. This is also an RF oriented piece of equipment, and it overlaps with some of the capabilities of the AD2. But, it works out to a couple GHz. The accuracy relative to the gear at work is astonishing. Certainly it's not any sort of limitation for any work I might do.
All the above, with the exception of the Powerstat, fits in two soft camera equipment cases that are each about the size of two shoe boxes. So, aside from the computer, this all fits on a single shelf in the closet. Naturally, there's also the usual collection of test leads, cables, adaptors, terminations, and so on. They seem to take up almost as much space as the modern test gear.
Adding that all up comes to about $3000 or thereabouts. Not including tools, the computer, a magnifying lamp, and the work table and chair. Those I had anyway for other purposes. Obviously, there's a fair amount of overlap in capabilities there and by choosing around that you can get to the $2000 level. Most of the software I use is either free, or very low cost. That's another topic...
The overall performance for each of these is better than what you could do twenty years ago, for almost any price. Before that, people used even less sophisticated equipment to do what they needed to in order to make repairs, develop products, and advance the field. Being clever and thoughtful about your approach counts a lot more than a pile of expensive test equipment. I'll also add that you can build a lot of what you might need, especially in the way of specialty items, that saves a bunch of money and gets around needing a dedicated box from a test equipment supplier.
I'm not suggesting that you should follow my lead - that's all up to you. I just wanted to point out that it can be done in a pragmatic fashion for your budget level and offer some encouragement. Hope it all works out for you!
Since audio is but a hobby for me, I didn't want to dedicate a large space for older test gear that might get used a couple dozen hours per year. I also don't mind spending a little more time to do a measurement than would be sensible in a time-equals-money environment. My results aren't part of any business. If I choose to publish any results in these pages or elsewhere, I make clear that they are the work of an amateur. If people don't like that, they can just ignore me - I'm used to that and find it perfectly reasonable.
On the other hand, I did want to be able to make good measurements that are repeatable and sensitive enough to be useful in testing out ideas.
Money wasn't the primary consideration, although it certainly did apply. Honestly, for me, I prefer finding an elegant and clever solution rather than throwing money at a problem. However, I fully acknowledge that is my own psychological flaw but I'm willing to go on regardless. As they say, Your Mileage Probably Does Vary...
Here's what I did.
I already owned a Fluke 87 series something, so that was a start. I also owned a suitable Powerstat for controlling AC line voltage. Plus, a computer with USB ports.
I've added a DE-5000 LCR meter that you mentioned. It compares very well with expensive routinely calibrated gear I have access to in my day job.
A Digilent Analog Discovery 2 gives me an oscilloscope that covers most of my needs. If I was fixing gear most of my day, I'd buy something more sophisticated that is stand alone. But, the AD2 lets me make square wave measurements, frequency response measurements way beyond the audio band, capture glitches, and all that stuff. I built a small fixture that also allows me to make measurements of gain and phase margin for closed loop amplifiers. Another purchased fixture allows me to characterize passive components from DC to several MHz, complete with curves. That somewhat overlaps with the DE-5000, but each has its advantages.
A Peak Atlas DCA75 lets me measure most semiconductors. I can also attach it to the computer for curve tracing. Very easy to use.
I bought a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface to use with a calibrated microphone so that I could characterize and refine the performance of our listening/living room. The volume controls make it a little fiddly when trying to make distortion measurements on electronics, but an AutoRanger fixes a lot of that.
In order to make distortion measurements I bought a couple low distortion audio oscillators from our own Victor here on DIYAudio. These are really great, he's really great to deal with, and everybody just raves about these. I put them each in their own box. I also built some passive notch filters designed by Samuel Groner, with circuit boards purchased through a group buy here on DIYAudio. The combination of the Victor generators and the notch filters lets me measure well below -140 dB relative to the applied tone. That's pretty good.
Mostly because I liked the combination of performance and the integration with software, I also ended up buying a QA401. This is also a great product and gets around the fiddliness of the 2i2 approach. Of course, it's not the latest Audio Precision level, but very good indeed, especially for about 20 dB less money (40 dB if money is considered as potential - voltage - instead of power.) The QA480 generator and notch filter in combination with the QA401 lets me measure to around -150 dBc, and that's for the second harmonic. Other harmonics are better.
I also built a Quasimodo test fixture designed by Mark Johnson that along with the AD2 makes it easy to determine the best damping networks for power transformers.
More recently, I purchased a TinySA spectrum analyzer. This is mostly for some RF testing, but it also works very well for locating high frequency oscillations in audio amplifiers. This little gadget is really amazing when I compare it to what I used in my work lab for serious measurements just a couple decades ago.
Also, I bought a NanoVNA V2 Plus4 network analyzer. This is also an RF oriented piece of equipment, and it overlaps with some of the capabilities of the AD2. But, it works out to a couple GHz. The accuracy relative to the gear at work is astonishing. Certainly it's not any sort of limitation for any work I might do.
All the above, with the exception of the Powerstat, fits in two soft camera equipment cases that are each about the size of two shoe boxes. So, aside from the computer, this all fits on a single shelf in the closet. Naturally, there's also the usual collection of test leads, cables, adaptors, terminations, and so on. They seem to take up almost as much space as the modern test gear.
Adding that all up comes to about $3000 or thereabouts. Not including tools, the computer, a magnifying lamp, and the work table and chair. Those I had anyway for other purposes. Obviously, there's a fair amount of overlap in capabilities there and by choosing around that you can get to the $2000 level. Most of the software I use is either free, or very low cost. That's another topic...
The overall performance for each of these is better than what you could do twenty years ago, for almost any price. Before that, people used even less sophisticated equipment to do what they needed to in order to make repairs, develop products, and advance the field. Being clever and thoughtful about your approach counts a lot more than a pile of expensive test equipment. I'll also add that you can build a lot of what you might need, especially in the way of specialty items, that saves a bunch of money and gets around needing a dedicated box from a test equipment supplier.
I'm not suggesting that you should follow my lead - that's all up to you. I just wanted to point out that it can be done in a pragmatic fashion for your budget level and offer some encouragement. Hope it all works out for you!
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Huge thanks CG for the time you spent giving such a detailed and informative answer.
I'll be ordering the DE-5000 today, seems really the best value for money. The DCA75 seems really convenient but I'm already in the process of ordering a uTracer which should cover both curve tracing on semiconductors and vacuum tubes characterization, actually this seems like a really good product to me at a very good price and being in the need of a tube tester I couldn't find a substitute.
I do have a ds1054z scope so with that in mind I think I could skip on the analog discovery and the tinysa and I'm not sure I'd have a use for the nanova.
Now I'm thinking if the QA401 would be better than a hp8903b. I'd really prefer fully standalone devices but performance comes first always.
I'll be ordering the DE-5000 today, seems really the best value for money. The DCA75 seems really convenient but I'm already in the process of ordering a uTracer which should cover both curve tracing on semiconductors and vacuum tubes characterization, actually this seems like a really good product to me at a very good price and being in the need of a tube tester I couldn't find a substitute.
I do have a ds1054z scope so with that in mind I think I could skip on the analog discovery and the tinysa and I'm not sure I'd have a use for the nanova.
Now I'm thinking if the QA401 would be better than a hp8903b. I'd really prefer fully standalone devices but performance comes first always.
Having experience with both the HP8903 and the QA401 the QA401 outperforms the HP and does more different tests and is getting continuous software improvements. And occupies 10% of the space of an 8903. (And is stereo!)
The Keithley does get to .001% THD and its internal oscillator is almost that good. But just not that useful for regular testing. It was really focused on manufacturing test for cell phones. The HD measurements is nice but not so useful.
The 8060A dB function can be relative. I have a Fluke 8922 which is a great instrument but pretty specialized and not cheap. Same designer that worked on the 8060A.
The Keithley does get to .001% THD and its internal oscillator is almost that good. But just not that useful for regular testing. It was really focused on manufacturing test for cell phones. The HD measurements is nice but not so useful.
The 8060A dB function can be relative. I have a Fluke 8922 which is a great instrument but pretty specialized and not cheap. Same designer that worked on the 8060A.
So the HP8903 is out as is the keithley (although I'm still considering the keithley just a bit since I get both a really good multimeter and the thd function for roughly the same money than just buying an analyzer)
On the h910 alignment instructions it reads :
"Adjust the HF Dist. control to obtain a distortion null. If a spectrum analyzer is available, null the second harmonic."
Am I correct to assume that any of these instruments would allow me to obtain a distortion null, also that the Q401 would allow me to null the second harmonic (maybe the keithley too?) ?
Would the orion32 with the autoranger be adequate doing all that ? (maybe I should just buy a Q401 and be done with it but being in Europe makes it an expensive endeavor plus I see the qa401 is no longer available so I'll have to wait for the qa402 to be released.)
On the h910 alignment instructions it reads :
"Adjust the HF Dist. control to obtain a distortion null. If a spectrum analyzer is available, null the second harmonic."
Am I correct to assume that any of these instruments would allow me to obtain a distortion null, also that the Q401 would allow me to null the second harmonic (maybe the keithley too?) ?
Would the orion32 with the autoranger be adequate doing all that ? (maybe I should just buy a Q401 and be done with it but being in Europe makes it an expensive endeavor plus I see the qa401 is no longer available so I'll have to wait for the qa402 to be released.)
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Any would allow a distortion null but only to the noise floor. The spectrum analysis would get you the HD2 null, but may be slow in response. I think a QA401 would really be the best option. If you can swing the Keithley its quite nice but fiddly. The feature set is quite extensive.
Here is how to retrieve the spectrum:
Retrieving magnitudes of individual harmonics (remote operation only)
The Model 2015/2015-P/2016 can return the levels of individual harmonics (relative to the level of the fundamental, in dB) over GPIB or RS-232. The arguments for this command are given as the starting harmonic and ending harmonic. Specifying 2,2 for the start and end harmonics will return the level of the second harmonic (twice the fundamental frequency). The harmonic levels returned correspond to the last triggered reading, and the unit has to be set for one-shot readings
Remote command:
:SENS
' <start> = 2 to 64
' <end> = 2 to 64
NOTE To query the level of one harmonic, use the same harmonic number for both <start> and <end>.
I have a mostly complete GPIB application for the 2015 which could easily be extended here: GitHub - 1audio/Keithley-Windows-10
the HP8903 with Pete Millett freeware is pretty good for me.
HP 8903 Software
Using The HP 8903 Audio Analyzer With Pete Millett's Programs - YouTube
/Paba
Years ago I bought a RSP1A and I noticed the other day that a spectrum analyzer has been developped for it.
Spectrum Analyser – SDRplay
The SDR will go all the way down to 1 Khz, don't know how practical that capability is but definitely the RSP1A can be put to use to detect RF oscillations floating around. Never gave it any further thought until the formentioned post, thanks!.
AM
The RSP1A suggestion is amazing, I do have a hackrf and will try this. I don't know why I never thought about it.
To give all an update of what I ended up buying here we go:
-JBC cd-2bqf, bought this brand new along with a few tips. I can only say good things about it. A major upgrade from whatever I've tried before.
-Brymen bm869s, mostly bad things about this one, auto ranging sucks and has a weird bug I think caused by EMI that doesn't let it decide on a range. This is particularly apparent when you measure resistance. Otherwise accurate with many functions available but this auto ranging thing is very bad.
-Keysight 4263b LCR, ok this really shouldn't be on my list but I found it on facebook ads for 200 euros so here it is. Amazing instrument, had to build a few test fixtures for it but it works great. I still have to hack the eeprom for transformer measurement option and extra frequencies .
Soldering iron and lcr just perfect and a descent multimeter. I did buy the keithley 2015P but the thd+n function wasn't what I was looking for, very troublesome and finnicky . Overall an amazing multimeter but I had to sell it since it didn't serve the original purpose I bought it for and was pretty expensive.
I decided to complete this puzzle by buying a qa401 and call it a day, but then qa401's became unavailable.
So now I'm waiting for the new quantasylum product to become available or looking for another audio analyzer.
Thank you everyone for the suggestions they were very helpful to me.
To give all an update of what I ended up buying here we go:
-JBC cd-2bqf, bought this brand new along with a few tips. I can only say good things about it. A major upgrade from whatever I've tried before.
-Brymen bm869s, mostly bad things about this one, auto ranging sucks and has a weird bug I think caused by EMI that doesn't let it decide on a range. This is particularly apparent when you measure resistance. Otherwise accurate with many functions available but this auto ranging thing is very bad.
-Keysight 4263b LCR, ok this really shouldn't be on my list but I found it on facebook ads for 200 euros so here it is. Amazing instrument, had to build a few test fixtures for it but it works great. I still have to hack the eeprom for transformer measurement option and extra frequencies .
Soldering iron and lcr just perfect and a descent multimeter. I did buy the keithley 2015P but the thd+n function wasn't what I was looking for, very troublesome and finnicky . Overall an amazing multimeter but I had to sell it since it didn't serve the original purpose I bought it for and was pretty expensive.
I decided to complete this puzzle by buying a qa401 and call it a day, but then qa401's became unavailable.
So now I'm waiting for the new quantasylum product to become available or looking for another audio analyzer.
Thank you everyone for the suggestions they were very helpful to me.
I second that, the 8060A is true RMS up to 100kHz and are trusty units if you get a good one.
Cheers,
1 Pascal=94dB
I understand this is a very good meter and would love to get one since I'm disappointed with the brymen but my experience with older gear hasn't been that great.
I saw some pictures of the 8060a and there are a few electrolytics in there, aren't these bad for sure just judging by age ?
If I replace them I'm pretty sure the meter won't be really calibrated after, but can I calibrate it with the equipment I currently have ? my only reference right now is the brymen and a cheap uni-t.
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