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Another (ultimate?) Behringer mod - what can  do to DEQ2496  (PART 1)
Another (ultimate?) Behringer mod - what can  do to DEQ2496  (PART 1)
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Old 10th September 2021, 09:02 AM   #51
DBMandrake is offline DBMandrake  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TasoTaso View Post
Hi, you did a great job! Which capacitors did you fit exactly? I mean part number / make / model / specifications. Thanks
Sure, these are the ones I used:

47uF 25v:
Panasonic Electrolytic Capacitor, 47 F, 25 V, EB Series, 20%, Radial Leaded, 5000 hours @ 105C - EEUEB1E470S

https://cpc.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/s...0180&langId=69

10uF 50v:
Panasonic Electrolytic Capacitor, 10 F, 50 V, EB Series, 20%, Radial Leaded, 5000 hours @ 105C - EEUEB1H100S

https://cpc.farnell.com/panasonic/ee...1mm/dp/CA08331

Both are rated at 5000 hours at 105C while the originals were only rated for an unknown number of hours at 85C, so they are higher temperature rated.

My unit runs quite hot because it's in an enclosed cabinet running 24/7 with other equipment sitting on top, so it's possible heat has been a factor.

There are 15x 47uF caps and 1x 10uF and because these are multiples of 10 only I ended up ordering 30 of the 47uF and 10 of the 10uF, but it's still pennies.

Because I had quite a few extras I was able to do my own bin sorting to find 15 that were all very close to 47uF. (There were a few outliers reaching out to 44 and 49uF)

They're a perfect size match to the originals. Keep in mind that my unit is an original revision 1.x unit (one of the very first in fact) so later revisions may not have the exact same capacitors in the I/O board, but I'm sure suitable capacitors could be found from the same Panasonic EB series.
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Last edited by DBMandrake; 10th September 2021 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 10th September 2021, 09:17 AM   #52
DBMandrake is offline DBMandrake  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Thanks for very nice presentation of data and good write-up.

How old is your device?
Bought 2003 or 2004. If I remember right it was within a year of release.

Can't find my original purchase receipt as I don't have access to the email address that I used back then any more.

I ordered it all the way from B&H Photo in the USA to New Zealand as it was the only seller I could find with a decent price who would ship all the way to NZ...
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Old 10th September 2021, 10:16 AM   #53
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Another (ultimate?) Behringer mod - what can  do to DEQ2496  (PART 1)
Thanks.

Running a "value priced" device 24/7 in an under-ventilated space for 18 years does provide a benchmark for aging of electrolytic caps resulting in plus and minus .7dB loss.

Your parts resources are in great shape to have 16 caps on hand for replacement and a magnifying glass and leisure time too. Others may find buying a new DSP a better move to correct the plus and minus .7dB failure.

BTW, it occurs to me that since your DSP is a crossover, the freq error really has to be looked at band by band, not a loss from top to bottom. And any gain differences can be readily managed by the input attenuators on the 6 amps.

So actually, viewed in three bands, the failure is more like plus and minus .2 dB within each of three bands. That would be astonishingly wonderful by the standards of many other audiophiles* before the cap replacement.

B.
* and monumentally better than the results at your chair on the best of days
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Last edited by bentoronto; 10th September 2021 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 10th September 2021, 10:53 AM   #54
DBMandrake is offline DBMandrake  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Thanks.

Running a "value priced" device 24/7 in an under-ventilated space for 18 years does provide a benchmark for aging of electrolytic caps resulting in plus and minus .7dB loss.
For the last 3 years it has been in a closed cabinet that does does have a partially open back where cables come in but there is also a lot of other equipment in the cabinet generating heat including an Xbox Series X, Tivo, stereo amp etc...so the inside of the cabinet is around 30C when things are turned on. However prior to this it spent most of its life sitting out in the open.

Not sure where you're getting +/- 0.7dB from, the loss at low frequencies in the bad channel was well over 3dB as shown in my graphs.
Quote:
Your parts resources are in great shape to have 16 caps on hand for replacement and a magnifying glass and leisure time too. Others may find buying a new DSP a better move to correct the plus and minus .7dB failure.
I didn't have them on hand - I ordered them in specifically for the repair - see the post prior to the one with the graphs in it where I said I was ordering them.

If you can suggest another DSP with the same functionality as the DEQ2496 that doesn't cost the earth I'm listening. I've had a quick look and there doesn't seem to be anything even 17 years later...

There are things like the MiniDSP which doesn't have its own UI and is designed to be programmed from a PC and then left alone. There are a lot of "room equaliser" units that are basically only designed for subwoofer integration so are only designed to adjust low frequencies - and these are usually 2x to 5x the price of a new DEQ2496 and do far, far less...

I could buy a second hand DEQ2496 on ebay - there are quite a few there for around 100, but it's very likely that they have the same dried out capacitor problem if they are older so I'd be back to replacing caps anyway. And they may have other problems mine doesn't.

Sometimes it's better to stick with the devil you know and just repair it. As a general rule I'm a repair stuff not throw it out and replace it at the first sign of trouble kinda guy.
Quote:
BTW, it occurs to me that since your DSP is a crossover, the freq error really has to be looked at band by band, not a loss from top to bottom. And any gain differences can be readily managed by the input attenuators on the 6 amps.

So actually, viewed in three bands, the failure is more like plus and minus .2 dB within each of three bands. That would be astonishingly wonderful by the standards of many other audiophiles* before the cap replacement.
You're confusing it with the DCX2496. The DCX2496 is a 3 band digital crossover, (having 6 channels) the DEQ2496 is not a crossover at all, it's "only" a stereo signal processor, which does graphic equaliser, parametric equaliser, compressor, stereo width enhancement among many other things... so there are only two channels to measure.
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Last edited by DBMandrake; 10th September 2021 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 10th September 2021, 02:54 PM   #55
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Another (ultimate?) Behringer mod - what can  do to DEQ2496  (PART 1)
"You're confusing it with the DCX2496... the DEQ2496 is not a crossover at all, it's "only" a stereo signal processor, which does graphic equaliser, parametric equaliser, compressor, stereo width enhancement among many other things... so there are only two channels to measure."

Oops.

But on the other hand, why go to all that bother when you can merely raise the low frequencies by less than a dB (which most of us couldn't possibly hear) and lower the upper frequencies by less than a dB (which most of us couldn't possibly hear).

B.
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Old 10th September 2021, 03:23 PM   #56
DBMandrake is offline DBMandrake  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
But on the other hand, why go to all that bother when you can merely raise the low frequencies by less than a dB (which most of us couldn't possibly hear) and lower the upper frequencies by less than a dB (which most of us couldn't possibly hear).
Given that one of the main input coupling capacitors was found to be nearly dead and progressively failing over the last year or so, arguing against repairing it is kind of silly, it was a fault that needed repairing before it died completely, and the degree of attenuation/shift in frequency response has been getting worse over time. (I've noticed it getting worse which is why I've finally got around to doing something about it)

It's not possible to compensate that slope correctly anyway even if it remained stable as the minimum step size for the graphic EQ and parametric EQ settings is 0.5dB, and there is no continuous slope function like a linear equaliser. The nearest is a 6dB/oct shelf function and it does a poor job trying to compensate a continuous slope - that is what I was previously using as a work around.

From reading a lot of your other responses to posts over time its clear that you're happy to accept a lot worse response errors that many other people are, and frequently wave it away with "well you won't hear it anyway", with no basis for that.

If you're happy with frequency response and gain imbalance between channels of that magnitude that's fine but I'm certainly not, and the error in both frequency response and channel balance that was there prior to the repair is plain as day, it was not subtle at all.
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Old 13th September 2021, 10:17 AM   #57
DBMandrake is offline DBMandrake  Scotland
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The DEQ2496 is back in service and all is well. There is a small channel imbalance on my amplifier itself of about 0.3dB so the total imbalance now is around 0.36dB down on the right with the two combined, so about 10x less than before and given all the other variables in an asymmetric room layout I can't hear any left/right imbalance subjectively anymore, where it was very obvious before with the fault.

I also notice there is subjectively a bit too much bass overall now - the right speaker was previously down quite a lot on bass due to this fault and had a rising frequency response that was making it sound thinner than it should have. Now that the right channel is working correctly the overall EQ settings for bass will need a slight tweak to compensate.
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Last edited by DBMandrake; 13th September 2021 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 14th September 2021, 09:14 PM   #58
TasoTaso is offline TasoTaso
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Thanks for the informations. I think you did a good job.
I would have done the same, in the sense that I would have fixed it.
I couldn't tolerate the flaw.
My deq is partially modified, upgraded, still open ... running.
I had considered, among other possibilities, to change those electrolytic caps with others of extreme quality.
As you well know, those of extreme quality do not fit physically.

Later I plan to replace the power supply with a linear one, the clock .... the A / D and D / A stage ... AND MORE!

thanks for the informations!
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