For myself, the most important part of being involved with HiFi, and producing a System,
is that the System is enjoyed.
Along with others, I am fortunate to be able to enjoy that aspect of my Hobby.
As a TT Set Up has always been a priority within my System, my learning about the fundamentals of this has developed across many years and is firmly set as a Secondary Interest.
Where I am Taking Part in discussions, as wall as furthering this, by travelling to a Host or inviting guests, to meet with Socially individuals who carry out work on the Vinyl Chain.
A lot can be gained by all parties from ssuch interactions.
The Learning Process, as I have maintained my involvement, has been the spark that has continuously reignites the Interest.
The TTS 8000 came on the Radar through my ownership and it was not long before amonalies were being discovered that were quite separated from TT Engineering Discussions that had been undertaken and when comparing to other owned TT's, the amomalies were raising a concern.
It is these anomalies and the results of the follow up discussions that is the drive to report through this Thread.
The TTS 8000 can make a very good impression, there are users who will stand by that.
I even know of a owner who has recently had the Modifications I have made known carried out on their own 8000.
Prior to this and Pre COVID, this 8000 had be used at Vintage DD TT Comparisons Meetings.
My contributions are to bring to the forefront a few conditions being discovered with a TTS 8000, that in the most basic of TT Design Talk are best not to be present.
Additionally as I have been instrumental in encouraging a work to take place to overcome these conditions that have raised a concern.
I have chose to make it known that there is in place a working design to overcome a proportion of the discovered anomalies.
I see this as a Positive outcome, as I have witnessed that there another Forum Member who has contributed to this Thread, that is making inquiries to another Engineer on this Forum about a Method to produce replacement Bearing Parts for the TTS 8000.
The fact that others with recognised TT Engineering Skills are being invited to contribute,
is in my mind a positive encouragement for this Thread.
is that the System is enjoyed.
Along with others, I am fortunate to be able to enjoy that aspect of my Hobby.
As a TT Set Up has always been a priority within my System, my learning about the fundamentals of this has developed across many years and is firmly set as a Secondary Interest.
Where I am Taking Part in discussions, as wall as furthering this, by travelling to a Host or inviting guests, to meet with Socially individuals who carry out work on the Vinyl Chain.
A lot can be gained by all parties from ssuch interactions.
The Learning Process, as I have maintained my involvement, has been the spark that has continuously reignites the Interest.
The TTS 8000 came on the Radar through my ownership and it was not long before amonalies were being discovered that were quite separated from TT Engineering Discussions that had been undertaken and when comparing to other owned TT's, the amomalies were raising a concern.
It is these anomalies and the results of the follow up discussions that is the drive to report through this Thread.
The TTS 8000 can make a very good impression, there are users who will stand by that.
I even know of a owner who has recently had the Modifications I have made known carried out on their own 8000.
Prior to this and Pre COVID, this 8000 had be used at Vintage DD TT Comparisons Meetings.
My contributions are to bring to the forefront a few conditions being discovered with a TTS 8000, that in the most basic of TT Design Talk are best not to be present.
Additionally as I have been instrumental in encouraging a work to take place to overcome these conditions that have raised a concern.
I have chose to make it known that there is in place a working design to overcome a proportion of the discovered anomalies.
I see this as a Positive outcome, as I have witnessed that there another Forum Member who has contributed to this Thread, that is making inquiries to another Engineer on this Forum about a Method to produce replacement Bearing Parts for the TTS 8000.
The fact that others with recognised TT Engineering Skills are being invited to contribute,
is in my mind a positive encouragement for this Thread.
I'm owning two TTS-8000. One is NOS, the other one has some use but is still in a very good overall condition.
Both have noticable side play in the spindle / bushing interface. Both bearings are creating a grinding metallic noise when the platter is spun. Interestingly the noise from the NOS sample is higher than that of the used sample. IMO the "tumbling" spindle, erratically touching the bushings are the root cause for the noise.
Both samples have some grease on the thurst pad / spindle ball interface. The rest of the bearings is dry.
In my opinion this is simply what Sony delivered those days!
On the NOS sample I took the bushings out of the bearing housing. Giving them some heat let them immediatly leak some oil. So they got a vacuum cleaning in Aceton and vacuum relubrication with appropriate sinter bronze oil. I didn't refit them so far.
Using engine oil SAE30W5 on the used sample improved side play and lowered the grinding noise. I'm with Jogi that grease might be the best intermediate solution.
Having tighter bushings would be the best solution, maybe of different material like TORLON (non metallic interface as a noise barrier).
Side note: The noise is also lower when additional load is placed on the platter by a heavy mat or platter weight. Reducing the "tumbling" of the spindle?
Both have noticable side play in the spindle / bushing interface. Both bearings are creating a grinding metallic noise when the platter is spun. Interestingly the noise from the NOS sample is higher than that of the used sample. IMO the "tumbling" spindle, erratically touching the bushings are the root cause for the noise.
Both samples have some grease on the thurst pad / spindle ball interface. The rest of the bearings is dry.
In my opinion this is simply what Sony delivered those days!
On the NOS sample I took the bushings out of the bearing housing. Giving them some heat let them immediatly leak some oil. So they got a vacuum cleaning in Aceton and vacuum relubrication with appropriate sinter bronze oil. I didn't refit them so far.
Using engine oil SAE30W5 on the used sample improved side play and lowered the grinding noise. I'm with Jogi that grease might be the best intermediate solution.
Having tighter bushings would be the best solution, maybe of different material like TORLON (non metallic interface as a noise barrier).
Side note: The noise is also lower when additional load is placed on the platter by a heavy mat or platter weight. Reducing the "tumbling" of the spindle?
Your last sentence is a standard mechanical engineering point --it takes mechanical force to overcome movement in a lateral position , the more matter that is applied to resist this the more lateral force is needed to overcome this .
Your point ( in Red ) is an honest comment , while Sony could and did make quality products their "Top of the Line " stuff was expensive.
I am commenting on the prices in THAT era not what you pay now for an item.
Your point ( in Red ) is an honest comment , while Sony could and did make quality products their "Top of the Line " stuff was expensive.
I am commenting on the prices in THAT era not what you pay now for an item.
Thanks for your explanation on the platter load effect. I'm an electronic engineer with just basic mechanical knowledge.
To be precise on my red point: It is just related to the bearing of the TTS-8000. I'm sure that Sony did deliver very good quality those days. But when I look at my NOS PUA-1600L... This also has some issues out of the box.
To be precise on my red point: It is just related to the bearing of the TTS-8000. I'm sure that Sony did deliver very good quality those days. But when I look at my NOS PUA-1600L... This also has some issues out of the box.
hi to you all,i also own 2 sony tts-8000's. 1 of mine has the upgraded bearing and thrust bearing that johng has mentioned in his posts. it is a rare uk model rather than the typical japanese import.
here are some pics. the torlon bushes that replaced the oillite bronze ones are much better and have lowered the noise floor a lot.
here are some pics. the torlon bushes that replaced the oillite bronze ones are much better and have lowered the noise floor a lot.
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audiomusica and jamie123
Your reports are very in keeping with what was hoped would materialise within this thread.
A report on these types of conditions that are not commonly made known, and fortunately are being seen referred to more regular.
To own a Vintage TT, that needs a little extra TLC is not something to shy away from.
There are overhaul threads for numerous TT Brands.
The Sony TTS 8000 is no different, it has all the potential to benefit from a few additional Treatments.
There are Two TT's now made known with one owner.
These will most likely have different backgrounds and possibly quite different Usage Histories, both are with very similar conditions and both are able to produce a Noise that is seen to be a result of a Mechanical Spindles Interface within a Bearing Housing.
Both TT's have been capable to produce a Stimulus for the Owner to seek out a solution to overcome the unwanted mechanical Interfaces.
Finding a guidance to help produce a much improved method to the one that was acquired with the TT's has become a extension of the owners interest.
I am myself with this character.
The TTS 8000 Owners thoughts on the offerings of Sony from this period is very similar to my own, the DD TT during the era.
When this TT was released for sale, the Vinyl Media Format was coming to the end, it was being Superseded as a Media by CD, this new Format that was imminently to be released.
I assume Sony was very much invested in the Development of CD and were careful how much they were willing to invest in the Vinyl Replay Devices for the masses.
It was also deficient in Marketing Promotion and I have read where it has stated the
TTS 8000 was marketed as a DD TT with Belt Drive Like Qualities.
As a Wild Conjecture, It looks like the Company was not too sure of it as competitor to DD Models, and had a Stab at taking on the Belt Drive as customers were potentially growing in this area.
Again Good News, that is all in the Past and there are loyal owners wanting to thoroughly enjoy their TTS 8000, for one reason only thay own a Vintage DD TT.
Some owners are on the Look Out to discover methods to improve on their TT's Performance, inquiring about Bearing Servicing, Alternative Lubricants, Plinth Designs, etc.
Then there are a smaller number that are looking to extend that experience and produce some changes in how it Mechanically Interfaces as Whole, and will consider New Parts for the Bearing Assembly along with the above inquiries.
Jamie123 has taken the plunge, we have shared similar curiosities, and as a result, Jamie has been introduced to a Work that was being undertaken on my behalf, and now has the very first TTS 8000, that I am aware of to have had a Treatment to the Bearing Housings Parts.
The Treatment to the Whole of the Bearing Assembly has satisfied one customer.
My intention is to use this Treatment as the starting point and work through other concerning areas as well.
Jamie has personally undertaken a few methods to try and make changes to the Bearing Housing on a owned TTS 8000.
So as a result of his Investigative Practices has acquired a first hand experience of why producing such changes are desirable and pursued.
Maybe Jamie123 can share on his experiences, hopefully sharing can be of a further to help others, and make it easier for them to identify with his experiences, and especially show that there is very good Treatments available that are quite affordable, and will serve as a betterment when incorporated for a TTS 8000.
I am patiently awaiting my opportunity to report back on the Treatment to the
TTS 8000, when mine are done.
Your reports are very in keeping with what was hoped would materialise within this thread.
A report on these types of conditions that are not commonly made known, and fortunately are being seen referred to more regular.
To own a Vintage TT, that needs a little extra TLC is not something to shy away from.
There are overhaul threads for numerous TT Brands.
The Sony TTS 8000 is no different, it has all the potential to benefit from a few additional Treatments.
There are Two TT's now made known with one owner.
These will most likely have different backgrounds and possibly quite different Usage Histories, both are with very similar conditions and both are able to produce a Noise that is seen to be a result of a Mechanical Spindles Interface within a Bearing Housing.
Both TT's have been capable to produce a Stimulus for the Owner to seek out a solution to overcome the unwanted mechanical Interfaces.
Finding a guidance to help produce a much improved method to the one that was acquired with the TT's has become a extension of the owners interest.
I am myself with this character.
The TTS 8000 Owners thoughts on the offerings of Sony from this period is very similar to my own, the DD TT during the era.
When this TT was released for sale, the Vinyl Media Format was coming to the end, it was being Superseded as a Media by CD, this new Format that was imminently to be released.
I assume Sony was very much invested in the Development of CD and were careful how much they were willing to invest in the Vinyl Replay Devices for the masses.
It was also deficient in Marketing Promotion and I have read where it has stated the
TTS 8000 was marketed as a DD TT with Belt Drive Like Qualities.
As a Wild Conjecture, It looks like the Company was not too sure of it as competitor to DD Models, and had a Stab at taking on the Belt Drive as customers were potentially growing in this area.
Again Good News, that is all in the Past and there are loyal owners wanting to thoroughly enjoy their TTS 8000, for one reason only thay own a Vintage DD TT.
Some owners are on the Look Out to discover methods to improve on their TT's Performance, inquiring about Bearing Servicing, Alternative Lubricants, Plinth Designs, etc.
Then there are a smaller number that are looking to extend that experience and produce some changes in how it Mechanically Interfaces as Whole, and will consider New Parts for the Bearing Assembly along with the above inquiries.
Jamie123 has taken the plunge, we have shared similar curiosities, and as a result, Jamie has been introduced to a Work that was being undertaken on my behalf, and now has the very first TTS 8000, that I am aware of to have had a Treatment to the Bearing Housings Parts.
The Treatment to the Whole of the Bearing Assembly has satisfied one customer.
My intention is to use this Treatment as the starting point and work through other concerning areas as well.
Jamie has personally undertaken a few methods to try and make changes to the Bearing Housing on a owned TTS 8000.
So as a result of his Investigative Practices has acquired a first hand experience of why producing such changes are desirable and pursued.
Maybe Jamie123 can share on his experiences, hopefully sharing can be of a further to help others, and make it easier for them to identify with his experiences, and especially show that there is very good Treatments available that are quite affordable, and will serve as a betterment when incorporated for a TTS 8000.
I am patiently awaiting my opportunity to report back on the Treatment to the
TTS 8000, when mine are done.
Honing the fitted bushings to the spindle diameter like jamie123 did is for sure the optimum solution, but not practical for everyone.
And for sure not the standard manufacturing process those days.
So how to improve the bearing with lesser effort?
Original bushings are 11 16 11 (ID OD Height) and non standard...
Closest shelf ware is 10 16 12. These have to be shortened by 1mm and the ID drilled to let's say 10,8mm. Finally honed to the Spindle OD.
Thing is that when pressed in the ID of the bushings will become smaller. Usually this is covered by tolerance specification of all parts (bearing housing, bushings, spindle).
Any ideas?
And for sure not the standard manufacturing process those days.
So how to improve the bearing with lesser effort?
Original bushings are 11 16 11 (ID OD Height) and non standard...
Closest shelf ware is 10 16 12. These have to be shortened by 1mm and the ID drilled to let's say 10,8mm. Finally honed to the Spindle OD.
Thing is that when pressed in the ID of the bushings will become smaller. Usually this is covered by tolerance specification of all parts (bearing housing, bushings, spindle).
Any ideas?
I am pretty sure that a bearing upgrade would be appreciated by quite some owners of this TT, myself included.
I agree with John that the build quality especially of the bearing is not top class, to put it mildly. My "solution" with the grease works, so that it is running free of audible noise, but i am afraid there is a sonic price to pay.
In former experiments with different viscosities with a Lenco bearing the sound was changing quite a bit using different oil. Thicker oil equalled a darker, slower, and at the same time quieter sound. The thinner oil opened up the high frequency considerably, and more detail was shining through.
As the greased Sony sounds a little shy of higher frequencies, I suspect that this would change with a better bearing and different oil.
Apart from the somehow darker sound it is really lovely, a fluid presentation which provides loads of musical insights; in general not sounding like a "typical" direct drive, as other mentioned before.
Compared to my Denon DP80 in the same plinth, same tonearm and cartridge, it falls short in dynamics, resolution and neutrality. The Denon shows differences between carts and records significantly more, it is the table which is more neutral no doubt. But I am happy I dont have to part with one or the other, as it would be a tough decision.
So if a bearing upgrade would adress dynamics and resolution, it would change a very good deck into a fantastic one I guess.
So, @ Jamie...to not further beat around the bush, do you see any possibility for a group buy?
I would be in for sure, and there are some other owners in Germany ...
I agree with John that the build quality especially of the bearing is not top class, to put it mildly. My "solution" with the grease works, so that it is running free of audible noise, but i am afraid there is a sonic price to pay.
In former experiments with different viscosities with a Lenco bearing the sound was changing quite a bit using different oil. Thicker oil equalled a darker, slower, and at the same time quieter sound. The thinner oil opened up the high frequency considerably, and more detail was shining through.
As the greased Sony sounds a little shy of higher frequencies, I suspect that this would change with a better bearing and different oil.
Apart from the somehow darker sound it is really lovely, a fluid presentation which provides loads of musical insights; in general not sounding like a "typical" direct drive, as other mentioned before.
Compared to my Denon DP80 in the same plinth, same tonearm and cartridge, it falls short in dynamics, resolution and neutrality. The Denon shows differences between carts and records significantly more, it is the table which is more neutral no doubt. But I am happy I dont have to part with one or the other, as it would be a tough decision.
So if a bearing upgrade would adress dynamics and resolution, it would change a very good deck into a fantastic one I guess.
So, @ Jamie...to not further beat around the bush, do you see any possibility for a group buy?
I would be in for sure, and there are some other owners in Germany ...
The idea of exchange parts being used does offer a Optimism to the method of overcoming the raised concerns about the Bearing Housing, especially the Spindles Side Ways Movement and the loss of lubrication.
I am all for the the investigation to see if the Parts are able to be more widely available.
It is important to keep in mind that Jamie has had a Turntable Specialist Sprinkle some of their Thought Processes onto the TTS 8000.
The Bearing Housing Sleeves as a result of this input are now exchanged and reproduced in a alternative material to the Sintered Bronze.
The Thrust Pad/Sump Plug is no longer the original Single Part, or is the New Trust Pad/ Sump Plug design in a similar method to the original.
The original can have incurred a wear multiple rotations taking place on it in a environment that could have developed into a condition that would be detrimental to the Plastic Part.
The Thrust Pad if Inspected in the Image, is now a Two Part Design, with one Part being a Sacrificial Thrust Pad and the Threaded Metal Part being the Sump Plug to retain a Lubricant and adjust the Platter to the correct height to Interface with the Magnetic Sensor.
This design makes the Long Term Maintenance of the Bearing Spindle Base Set Ball/ Thrust Pad much more user friendly.
Additionally it also allows for a easy exchange of Thrust Pad Materials to fine tune a Sound to the TTS 8000 users unique preference.
If the Method produced for Jamie is one that is desired to be used by others.
To get the most from it, I would suggest Two additional Measures are used in advance.
One is Inspecting the Interference Fit Ball set into the Base of the Platter Spindle.
The Ball can incur a Damage from being in a non prime environment for too many rotations.
To have a Contact Point on a Ball that is seen to be as perfect as perceivable will produce a Interface with the Thrust Pad that will be better than using a Ball with a imperfection on the Rotation Point.
Corrective works may need to be carried out if the discovery is made that the Ball has imperfections on the rotation point.
Second is the need to ensure the reassembly is as exact as the condition it was when dismantled,.
The Spindle really is best reset to the the Height that the Factory set it at.
I assume there were methods during the assembly of the TT, to ensure the correct electronic interface was created for the Speed Control Measurements.
This is achieved by adjusting the Height of the Platter, to align to the Sensor,
hence the option to Lift Lower the Spindle with the Thrust Pad/Sump Plug.
As said before there is a Limited Window to set the Height, as the Sump Plug will have a Thread Seal Applied to it, that will need to be left to cure and perform as a defence against Leeching Lubricant from the Sump.
I am all for the the investigation to see if the Parts are able to be more widely available.
It is important to keep in mind that Jamie has had a Turntable Specialist Sprinkle some of their Thought Processes onto the TTS 8000.
The Bearing Housing Sleeves as a result of this input are now exchanged and reproduced in a alternative material to the Sintered Bronze.
The Thrust Pad/Sump Plug is no longer the original Single Part, or is the New Trust Pad/ Sump Plug design in a similar method to the original.
The original can have incurred a wear multiple rotations taking place on it in a environment that could have developed into a condition that would be detrimental to the Plastic Part.
The Thrust Pad if Inspected in the Image, is now a Two Part Design, with one Part being a Sacrificial Thrust Pad and the Threaded Metal Part being the Sump Plug to retain a Lubricant and adjust the Platter to the correct height to Interface with the Magnetic Sensor.
This design makes the Long Term Maintenance of the Bearing Spindle Base Set Ball/ Thrust Pad much more user friendly.
Additionally it also allows for a easy exchange of Thrust Pad Materials to fine tune a Sound to the TTS 8000 users unique preference.
If the Method produced for Jamie is one that is desired to be used by others.
To get the most from it, I would suggest Two additional Measures are used in advance.
One is Inspecting the Interference Fit Ball set into the Base of the Platter Spindle.
The Ball can incur a Damage from being in a non prime environment for too many rotations.
To have a Contact Point on a Ball that is seen to be as perfect as perceivable will produce a Interface with the Thrust Pad that will be better than using a Ball with a imperfection on the Rotation Point.
Corrective works may need to be carried out if the discovery is made that the Ball has imperfections on the rotation point.
Second is the need to ensure the reassembly is as exact as the condition it was when dismantled,.
The Spindle really is best reset to the the Height that the Factory set it at.
I assume there were methods during the assembly of the TT, to ensure the correct electronic interface was created for the Speed Control Measurements.
This is achieved by adjusting the Height of the Platter, to align to the Sensor,
hence the option to Lift Lower the Spindle with the Thrust Pad/Sump Plug.
As said before there is a Limited Window to set the Height, as the Sump Plug will have a Thread Seal Applied to it, that will need to be left to cure and perform as a defence against Leeching Lubricant from the Sump.
I think it could be a pretty straightforward, not too complicated procedure. Pressing out the oilite bushings first, preferably after heating up the assembly.
Then pressing in the honed new torlon bushings, checking after that to ensure it runs smoothly.
And then, if still wanted and needed, the mounting of the new thrust pad to the correct height.
One thing I forgot to mention: the O ring which in theory should keep the oil in the bearing, seems to be old and hardened and probably shrunk due to the evaporation of softeners.
It would be interesting to find a fresh substitute for it to find out, if the bearing could be sealed, which would allow to completely fill it with a light oil. In my experience this adds to the longevity and to better sound as well, as the oil seems to further damp noise.
Then pressing in the honed new torlon bushings, checking after that to ensure it runs smoothly.
And then, if still wanted and needed, the mounting of the new thrust pad to the correct height.
One thing I forgot to mention: the O ring which in theory should keep the oil in the bearing, seems to be old and hardened and probably shrunk due to the evaporation of softeners.
It would be interesting to find a fresh substitute for it to find out, if the bearing could be sealed, which would allow to completely fill it with a light oil. In my experience this adds to the longevity and to better sound as well, as the oil seems to further damp noise.