Ha! Indeed. Like many of you here (I presume) I have several turntables of various ages and makes, and all serve their purpose one way or the other. I like the Frankenstein Califone just because of the huge sound it gets out of mono discs, and often they play far better here than on other tables. The midrange and bottom end especially are really nice when you hear it on a decently big speaker with a tube amp. It's probably obvious in the video but I long ago removed anything related to the amp section so it's just the simplicity of the motor, spindle and tonearm and I think that helps the overall sound. But that said, that noise...
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Just following up on this a month or so later; I've purchased new motor mounts and intend to install them over the weekend. Meanwhile, though, I've realized that the idler is wobbling - not wow or anything, but literally wobbling on the shaft as it turns which seems to be introducing noise as well. I can't tell if the shaft is bent, or the idler itself is faulty, although I'm wondering if that might be part of the issue. Is there any way to determine this? It's very obvious at 78, although it's not causing any noticeable speed problems, but you can hear the clank clank clank under the platter, and with the platter off you can see it bobbing up and down as it turns.
Its possible the spacers on the idler are worn /missing also make sure the platter is secure as worn spacers are an issue on them .
In any case contact-
Voice Of Music, V-M Audio Enthusiasts
he (Gary Stork ) holds or will make up idlers.
The Califone company announced they got rid of their old stock and new stock is much changed and made in China.
The platter spindle is inclined to jam so make sure its running free.
In any case contact-
Voice Of Music, V-M Audio Enthusiasts
he (Gary Stork ) holds or will make up idlers.
The Califone company announced they got rid of their old stock and new stock is much changed and made in China.
The platter spindle is inclined to jam so make sure its running free.
Thats a different model ,the ones I was referring to were the older versions and not made in Japan as the platter seems to refer to .
I would assume that its a brass bush if the spindle rotates with the platter if its an "interference fit " IE- its a tight fit otherwise if the platter rotates with the spindle fixed then any wear will take place in the platter insert depending on how case hardened it is.
Check the platter is entirely round as some are very slightly oval .
If you take hold of the idler can you move it from side to side to check for wear ?
The deck looks in good condition and you are not alone in liking its "sound " ---cheap or not , its what you like not what somebody else likes or not as its you that's listening to it not them.
I would assume that its a brass bush if the spindle rotates with the platter if its an "interference fit " IE- its a tight fit otherwise if the platter rotates with the spindle fixed then any wear will take place in the platter insert depending on how case hardened it is.
Check the platter is entirely round as some are very slightly oval .
If you take hold of the idler can you move it from side to side to check for wear ?
The deck looks in good condition and you are not alone in liking its "sound " ---cheap or not , its what you like not what somebody else likes or not as its you that's listening to it not them.
The platter appears to wobble slightly as it turns, which I've not been able to solve.
And yes, the spindle fits tightly.
The idler does wiggle side to side slightly, and visibly moves up and down when turning.
I LOVE how this sounds on old mono records, especially 78s. Mine's been hod rodded long ago, it has a Stanton 500 cartridge and I have an assortment of low compliance (i.e., DJ-line) styli that I use with it, and also replaced the tonearm wire with just a single strand of silver wire for + and - run through tubing. If I could just get the noise issues under control, now.
And yes, the spindle fits tightly.
The idler does wiggle side to side slightly, and visibly moves up and down when turning.
I LOVE how this sounds on old mono records, especially 78s. Mine's been hod rodded long ago, it has a Stanton 500 cartridge and I have an assortment of low compliance (i.e., DJ-line) styli that I use with it, and also replaced the tonearm wire with just a single strand of silver wire for + and - run through tubing. If I could just get the noise issues under control, now.
If the platter wobbles slightly when turning its either the platter is not completely round or there is some wear in the bearing .
With the platter on take hold of it at either end and see if it moves side to side --it shouldn't.
To test in a simple way to check if the platter is round place a pen or pointer very close to the edge of the platter and turn it on .
watch the edge of the pointer to see if changes distances as it turns .
Also try oiling the bearing that holds the shaft in place .
With the platter on take hold of it at either end and see if it moves side to side --it shouldn't.
To test in a simple way to check if the platter is round place a pen or pointer very close to the edge of the platter and turn it on .
watch the edge of the pointer to see if changes distances as it turns .
Also try oiling the bearing that holds the shaft in place .
The platter is as solid as a rock trying to move it side to side - very secure. With a ruler next to it you can see it moves up and down around 1mm, or slightly less - a small amount but quite visible when it's turning, especially at the faster speeds.
The only way I could see to oil the bearing (which I did a few weeks ago) was to just put a drop of oil where the spindle enters the shaft - I couldn't see a way to disassemble the spindle mechanism. It unscrews from the platter easily and is just a shaft with the spindle coming out, and you can see there are two parts, but I couldn't get them apart...wasn't sure if they screwed together, or were attached some other way.
The only way I could see to oil the bearing (which I did a few weeks ago) was to just put a drop of oil where the spindle enters the shaft - I couldn't see a way to disassemble the spindle mechanism. It unscrews from the platter easily and is just a shaft with the spindle coming out, and you can see there are two parts, but I couldn't get them apart...wasn't sure if they screwed together, or were attached some other way.
If the platter is rock solid then there is no obvious wear in the bearing the reason it moves up and down is due to engineering tolerances in the deck which would take a bit of time to correct .
I take it we are talking of vertical variation when its turning ?
If so ( and the bearing is rock solid ) then check how parallel the platter is to the center metal insert that attaches to the spindle , both must be exactly parallel with each other but 1mm isn't much unless its causing distortion when playing , a vertical difference to the parallel between the two can be fixed but its a slow,careful job .
I take it we are talking of vertical variation when its turning ?
If so ( and the bearing is rock solid ) then check how parallel the platter is to the center metal insert that attaches to the spindle , both must be exactly parallel with each other but 1mm isn't much unless its causing distortion when playing , a vertical difference to the parallel between the two can be fixed but its a slow,careful job .
I had a bit of epiphany after reading what you wrote and wondered if the rocking idler might be causing the platter to wobble slightly. I don't have any spare fibre washers, but did have a slightly thicker plastic one that I replaced it with, and that greatly reduced both the wobble in the idler and the noise, plus it seems to have reduced the platter wobble somewhat as well, although it's definitely not flat - I'm not sure the platter itself is fully level. Could it be a new washer might fix most of this?
That machine isn't/wasn't meant for any high fidelity use, or with a magnetic cartridge.
It's simply incompatable to do.
Plus the motor is crude, likely a 2-pole type, and non-hifi qualified.
What you've done is modify it, resulting in poor operation.
I realize you want to "improve it" some, but in this case it's futile.
It's simply incompatable to do.
Plus the motor is crude, likely a 2-pole type, and non-hifi qualified.
What you've done is modify it, resulting in poor operation.
I realize you want to "improve it" some, but in this case it's futile.
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Look, nothing I can say would convince anybody that with some modifying this isn't a bad sounding table for mono discs, especially 78s. I appreciate the attempts to "teach" me as if I don't know better, but I've owned many tables in my many years, and there's just something about the heft this has with the old stuff I listen to that really appeals to my ears. The fi is all there, it's just coupled with more of a noise floor than I'd prefer. This isn't a cheap plastic player, it's all metal, and all the amp/mic/speaker circuitry was pulled out long ago, so it's just the motor and tonearm in the case.
I have a Rondine Jr with idler that is a far sight better made than your Califone and yet the motor noise is ridiculous. I can here the motor run from across the room. Some years back I took the motor apart and thoroughly examined and cleaned it. There wasn't much improvement.
I gave up and went to belt drive. If you do figure out how and why the motor noise is getting into the platter, you might give me hope for the Rondine.
I gave up and went to belt drive. If you do figure out how and why the motor noise is getting into the platter, you might give me hope for the Rondine.
Those old Rondine's used a big ole noisy 4 pole motor, crude by today's standards.
I had a Jr model too, made in the early 1960's, with the technology available at that time.
They were "battleship" type machines for sure.
But they had their limitations.
Enter the Dual 1229, another idler machine of 1973 refinements.
This had an utterly silent, precision balanced motor, with a micro-polished shaft in a precision bearing assembly. - German engineering at its finest.
Granted, the tier level difference and design between these machines is substantial.
As it should be.
Bottom line: you get what you pay for.
I had a Jr model too, made in the early 1960's, with the technology available at that time.
They were "battleship" type machines for sure.
But they had their limitations.
Enter the Dual 1229, another idler machine of 1973 refinements.
This had an utterly silent, precision balanced motor, with a micro-polished shaft in a precision bearing assembly. - German engineering at its finest.
Granted, the tier level difference and design between these machines is substantial.
As it should be.
Bottom line: you get what you pay for.
In answer to your post #30 Typecrazy 789 -
If,as you say in that post re- the washer replacement "plus it seems to have reduced the platter wobble as well " and taking into account your comment on it "being rock solid " then that leaves the original platter engineering as being "not perfect " .
A new washer will not fix that unless it was perfectly level when new , the idler should wobble slightly , its on a spring tension to take into account internal platter machining inaccuracies .
What it should NOT do is run up and down the inner lip to any great degree as that will affect (very slightly ) the speed and therefore the perceived audio reproduction.
That can happen if the spindle /idler is worn and applying pressure at an angle ( not 90 degrees ) to the inner lip of the platter.
If,as you say in that post re- the washer replacement "plus it seems to have reduced the platter wobble as well " and taking into account your comment on it "being rock solid " then that leaves the original platter engineering as being "not perfect " .
A new washer will not fix that unless it was perfectly level when new , the idler should wobble slightly , its on a spring tension to take into account internal platter machining inaccuracies .
What it should NOT do is run up and down the inner lip to any great degree as that will affect (very slightly ) the speed and therefore the perceived audio reproduction.
That can happen if the spindle /idler is worn and applying pressure at an angle ( not 90 degrees ) to the inner lip of the platter.
Yes, a motor that you might expect to find on a drill press rather than a turntable.
Going to outboard belt drive made a world of difference.I might try to return to idler drive with a better motor. Maybe DC brushless.
Tapecrazy might be able to do the same with his Califone if its motor is hopeless.
The thing is..... that Califone unit uses a crude platter bearing assembly.
No ball bearings, no finely machined surfaces, just a shaft shoved into a hole with maybe a thrust washer.
The platter itself is stamped steel.
There are limitations inherent in the design.
They were made for use in places of public gatherings - school rooms, auditoriums, etc., not quiet home settings.
This was mentioned previously by someone earlier here.
Like those 1950's little RCA Victor "45 players", the design doesn't have the ability to satisfy a "critical ear" listener insisting on some idea of "better performance".
No matter what modifications are attempted on them.
Some modifications can help - but only a little.
I've gone there with them, and the results are dismal at best.
Yet, I see some stubborn people out there being insistant to try - whatever.
No ball bearings, no finely machined surfaces, just a shaft shoved into a hole with maybe a thrust washer.
The platter itself is stamped steel.
There are limitations inherent in the design.
They were made for use in places of public gatherings - school rooms, auditoriums, etc., not quiet home settings.
This was mentioned previously by someone earlier here.
Like those 1950's little RCA Victor "45 players", the design doesn't have the ability to satisfy a "critical ear" listener insisting on some idea of "better performance".
No matter what modifications are attempted on them.
Some modifications can help - but only a little.
I've gone there with them, and the results are dismal at best.
Yet, I see some stubborn people out there being insistant to try - whatever.
Yes, a motor that you might expect to find on a drill press rather than a turntable.
I might try to return to idler drive with a better motor. Maybe DC brushless.
Tapecrazy might be able to do the same with his Califone if its motor is hopeless.
Does your motor produce a lot of ambient noise, then? That's not the issue here, I can barely hear it from a couple feet away when it's on. The problem I'm having is it's showing up in the audio - the second the needle hits the groove there's a low-lying hmmmmmmm that's coming from the motor, it's not an electrical hum or anything since it's only there when the needle is on the record and in motion.
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