Hi to everyone.
Initially, I found information that the best HF and MF are planar and isodynamic emitters, the best of which are AMT (Heil as a type of emitter), then searching for which of them is the best, I found that Beyma TPL is better than the rest, (excludes RaaL in last octaves) continuing to search I found that some users it is not as good against the best compression drivers, on a beryllium membrane.
I have collected a lot of information on the search, both here and on sites in Google. If anyone is interested, I can throw the contents under the spoiler, what I managed to find, although I am sure most will find it meager and uninteresting.
Therefore, I decided to create a separate topic.
I ask everyone to speak out - your driver rating, and in what frequencies, for example, it is clear that 3 inches have a better response due to less weight, and 4 inches have more power and a lower cutoff frequency, (what are the conditions in general, because for example I found that some people prefer the sound of a driver without a horn) but this is all theory, and what kind of sound is interesting.
Initially, I found information that the best HF and MF are planar and isodynamic emitters, the best of which are AMT (Heil as a type of emitter), then searching for which of them is the best, I found that Beyma TPL is better than the rest, (excludes RaaL in last octaves) continuing to search I found that some users it is not as good against the best compression drivers, on a beryllium membrane.
I have collected a lot of information on the search, both here and on sites in Google. If anyone is interested, I can throw the contents under the spoiler, what I managed to find, although I am sure most will find it meager and uninteresting.
Therefore, I decided to create a separate topic.
I ask everyone to speak out - your driver rating, and in what frequencies, for example, it is clear that 3 inches have a better response due to less weight, and 4 inches have more power and a lower cutoff frequency, (what are the conditions in general, because for example I found that some people prefer the sound of a driver without a horn) but this is all theory, and what kind of sound is interesting.
I have used both the Beyma TPL150/H and Radian 850PB (not beryllium) and although the Radian is more efficient and can play much louder, I prefer the Beyma's sound quality, which I found better at 1.8kHz crossover than the much lower limit of which it is capable, which surprised me. The low distortion of the Beyma makes it a very capable driver to my ears but it needs a good amp to take full advantage - no cheap Class D!
Having said this, the Radian is the best compression driver I have heard.
Having said this, the Radian is the best compression driver I have heard.
Hi Kashtan,
sound quality is not only some particular driver, but the whole implementation of a speaker and it's suitability for an application, and how well it is positioned in a room. So, room acoustics and suitability is also involved in decision of what is best. Best driver for one system might not be best for another so best for one person could be exactly wrong choise to you.
Chasing best driver can be done only after there is sufficient understanding of what makes a good system in particular application, in your application. This means one has to have some idea about directivity and SPL and bandwidth it has to work with, what kind of processing is available, budget, what you are able to manufacture and this kind of stuff. Now you'd know whether you need a dome, or ribbon, or compression driver, or something exotic, or any at all. Even then, for example best brand make and model for low SPL listening at home is different than best for high SPL listening in a growd. Understanding the goal and requirements from a system to meet it is mandatory, only then one can go after for a best driver.
So, chasing for best will make you run in circles and leave you confused, until you understand to first examine your context, to understand what kind of playback system in a particular room and acoustics and positioning would make such sound your auditory system makes good perception out of it in your use case. Then after you understand your context, for which you need a tweeter solution for, then you can understand preferences of others, assuming they communicated their context! This is 90% missing in all posts you've read, so, most recommendations are for some system but if no one knows / communicates which one it's just irrelevant information, noise, and you'll run in circles until studying some 😀
Meanwhile, if you fancy a planar or isodynamic, or compression driver, then buy one, and make a system out of it, perhaps you'll be very happy with it. At least you'll get your project done since the driver is interesting to you and learn things with it. It's not very interesting to think and test stuff endlessly to get proper understanding of what's best and never get anything done 😀 so, that part comes in time, at some point, if ever. It's not important to have best, fine is good enough! And having fun time! it's a hobby after all so remember to have fun what ever that is to you!🙂
Example:
HF10AK seems be nice 1" compression driver, I have them, but they only work if crossover is relatively high compared to SPL and there is DSP to control the frequency response. If I didn't think this stuff, I'd probably recommend the driver because I have not used other compression drivers with my system, even though I have some in the closet. I've measured the other drivers and know they would be likely easier to make work in a system in with a passive xo, but haven't gone further as I'm using DSP. I also know that if my system had to play louder, or was different size, this might not be very good option but I'd look for something else. Also price of these is very high today, and there is very good cheaper options available. So, while the driver is currently the best for me, it's not best for almost all other speakers and people, at leat if they have to go and buy them. These I already own and there is no problems with the sound after I've integrated the whole system they work fine. My system is particular size, as I needed very good sound in a normal living room and came up with a system that needs a compression driver and these suffice. Now, if I designed the system again, i'd be likely just fine with a dome tweeter (in a waveguide), because since then technology and knowledge has evolved and I could make waveguide for dome quite as easily as for a compression driver. So, I don't recommend this driver, although it's likely quite best for me right now it's not likely best for you.
ps. you'll probably get 10 different answers from 10 different people, that's how this kind of things work, everyone posts something they know and no others has already posted about, you'll see 😉 I bet very few read my long posts so it'll happen.
sound quality is not only some particular driver, but the whole implementation of a speaker and it's suitability for an application, and how well it is positioned in a room. So, room acoustics and suitability is also involved in decision of what is best. Best driver for one system might not be best for another so best for one person could be exactly wrong choise to you.
Chasing best driver can be done only after there is sufficient understanding of what makes a good system in particular application, in your application. This means one has to have some idea about directivity and SPL and bandwidth it has to work with, what kind of processing is available, budget, what you are able to manufacture and this kind of stuff. Now you'd know whether you need a dome, or ribbon, or compression driver, or something exotic, or any at all. Even then, for example best brand make and model for low SPL listening at home is different than best for high SPL listening in a growd. Understanding the goal and requirements from a system to meet it is mandatory, only then one can go after for a best driver.
So, chasing for best will make you run in circles and leave you confused, until you understand to first examine your context, to understand what kind of playback system in a particular room and acoustics and positioning would make such sound your auditory system makes good perception out of it in your use case. Then after you understand your context, for which you need a tweeter solution for, then you can understand preferences of others, assuming they communicated their context! This is 90% missing in all posts you've read, so, most recommendations are for some system but if no one knows / communicates which one it's just irrelevant information, noise, and you'll run in circles until studying some 😀
Meanwhile, if you fancy a planar or isodynamic, or compression driver, then buy one, and make a system out of it, perhaps you'll be very happy with it. At least you'll get your project done since the driver is interesting to you and learn things with it. It's not very interesting to think and test stuff endlessly to get proper understanding of what's best and never get anything done 😀 so, that part comes in time, at some point, if ever. It's not important to have best, fine is good enough! And having fun time! it's a hobby after all so remember to have fun what ever that is to you!🙂
Example:
HF10AK seems be nice 1" compression driver, I have them, but they only work if crossover is relatively high compared to SPL and there is DSP to control the frequency response. If I didn't think this stuff, I'd probably recommend the driver because I have not used other compression drivers with my system, even though I have some in the closet. I've measured the other drivers and know they would be likely easier to make work in a system in with a passive xo, but haven't gone further as I'm using DSP. I also know that if my system had to play louder, or was different size, this might not be very good option but I'd look for something else. Also price of these is very high today, and there is very good cheaper options available. So, while the driver is currently the best for me, it's not best for almost all other speakers and people, at leat if they have to go and buy them. These I already own and there is no problems with the sound after I've integrated the whole system they work fine. My system is particular size, as I needed very good sound in a normal living room and came up with a system that needs a compression driver and these suffice. Now, if I designed the system again, i'd be likely just fine with a dome tweeter (in a waveguide), because since then technology and knowledge has evolved and I could make waveguide for dome quite as easily as for a compression driver. So, I don't recommend this driver, although it's likely quite best for me right now it's not likely best for you.
ps. you'll probably get 10 different answers from 10 different people, that's how this kind of things work, everyone posts something they know and no others has already posted about, you'll see 😉 I bet very few read my long posts so it'll happen.
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It has a objectionable resonance @1.6 khz ish. Do some modifications to the driver as shown in different threads on here to fix some of it's issues.
Like said above, "the best driver" does not exist, there are only best drivers for certain circumstances. Bot ribbon and compression drivers have their advantages and disadvantages and work best in different circumstances. There is not one way to good sound, there are many.
So always look at the situation and try to find the best solution for it. But what may be the best solution of one situation, can be a very bad solution for the an other one...
So always look at the situation and try to find the best solution for it. But what may be the best solution of one situation, can be a very bad solution for the an other one...
Thanks to everyone for their comments.
I was hoping that everyone would give their rating.
For example (from MrKlinky).
1. Beima TPL-150.
2. Radian 850- PB.
I was hoping that everyone would give their rating.
For example (from MrKlinky).
1. Beima TPL-150.
2. Radian 850- PB.
Do you fancy running in circles? 😊
Depending on the succes criteria, implementation and application I could give all the tweeters in my systems (and others I've evaluated) a 1. in ranking.
On top of that it will also still be directly related to my personal bias. - Well described by Tmuikku
If you have a special reference for us outlining the above listed parameters, we might be able to give somewhat of a hint or direction as to where some have strengths over the others.
I have been happy with Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater in 1966 at Long Point Cinema in Houston. These may have 807-8A CD, but my catalog is 1971 and the part # may have been different in 1966. I had perfect hearing in 1966, prior to Army training, and the source material was Lord Jim movie. Interesting that 1971 catalog brags that VOT can be heard at the Houston Astrodome, which had vile acoustics and a bad 2 second echo. My H.S. band played the opening ceremony of the Astrodome for Pres Johnson, and the sound was so bad we had to ignore our ears and look at the baton.
In 2014 I discovered the Peavey SP2-XT which looked like a VOT. The sound was great at the 1/4 to 5 watts I listen at. Test track Beethoven Appassionata R. Serkin supplimented by ZZ Top Woke up with Wood. CD was Peavey RX22, titanium. My hearing stops at 14000 hz now. In 2020 SP2-XT were stolen, and replaced with SP2(2004) which sound as good. SP2(2004) specification sheet shows Harmonic Distortion at 5 W 25 db down from response 60-12000 hz. Crossover was 1200 hz on SP2-XT and 1800 hz SP2(2004). I do not listen to the Peavey RX22 speakers at the 500 W AES they are capable of.
In 2014 I discovered the Peavey SP2-XT which looked like a VOT. The sound was great at the 1/4 to 5 watts I listen at. Test track Beethoven Appassionata R. Serkin supplimented by ZZ Top Woke up with Wood. CD was Peavey RX22, titanium. My hearing stops at 14000 hz now. In 2020 SP2-XT were stolen, and replaced with SP2(2004) which sound as good. SP2(2004) specification sheet shows Harmonic Distortion at 5 W 25 db down from response 60-12000 hz. Crossover was 1200 hz on SP2-XT and 1800 hz SP2(2004). I do not listen to the Peavey RX22 speakers at the 500 W AES they are capable of.
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Hi,
I've got no experience on either of these but a lot can be reasoned just by from their datasheets:
These two specimen have quite different properties and are not interchangeable in a system context. The radian driver has very large diaphragm and can do loud sound likely octave lower than the Beyma. But same goes for the top end, radian loses from the highs what it gains for the bottom. Beyma is optimized for the highs, instead of extended lows, so different compromises altogether.
Both would likely sound just fine in a system context, I think the Beyma has only positive writings on the forums during very long time so if it's narrow vertical pattern supports your system target, and you cross it over at suitable point I bet it sounds great, so amongst similar devices it should be fine.
The radian seems nice driver as well and likely compares to other similar devices fine, but quickly judging by eye it likely sounds little bit muffled in direct comparison to Beyma as the top octave response drops. Depending on your horn/waveguide and listening position, the Beyma top could drop even more though, although for hifi it likely wouldn't as you'd likely always listen at favorable listening axis.
The Beyma you'd likely want to use smaller midwoofers with it due to it's relatively low horizontal DI (wide coverage) and +1kHz crossover, so it likely makes a three way speaker system. Also smaller structure overall (for mids and highs) which might be important. Paired with 8" woofer perhaps ~20*40cm "baffle". The Radian could go with a 15" mid woofer, which could be a two way speaker with higher DI (narrower coverage), and a bit bigger structure as a horn to have directivity octave lower than Beyma has about twice the diameter. This could make as big as ~40*80cm "baffle". Baffle in quotes as waveguides could be freestanding.
You could of course use big woofer with the Beyma and small for the Radian, but these are kind of odds against their strengths in system context: the Radian is made to be crossed lower and to achieve that they had to sacrifice the top due to physics, and it would be silly not to cross it low because then one could use the Beyma and not sacrifice the top, right?
These, radiant 2 way and beyma 3 way, would be systems with quite different sound due to many reasons, everything is different, both for direct sound and also for sound to all directions (directivity) so they suit different rooms and use cases bit better while for some not so well. Both have potential to sound rather excellent and both could be further optimized for some particular use case. Depending on room and it's acoustics and freedom to position the speakers either could win I bet, either could sound very nice, and since there is million variables different between the two everything being different it's somewhat random which one is better. Neither is at the moment, you'd need to build both and compare.
BTW, same analysis would apply to a 2" compression driver and beyma sized AMT regardless of brands and makes and models, just assuming those drivers were ideal sound sources, they are physically different size and shape, so inevitably have different acoustic properties. Electrical properties as well, very different motors. In addition they have properties of real devices so all kinds of quirks on top of "ideal response". For 2" throat compressiond drivers there is possibly a cheat, coaxial compression driver which could extend the top frequency response, but the top is also feature of the waveguide, which the device phase plug is also part of. Now it would also make a three way system and somewhat level out differences, DSP more likely on both now, and so on.
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That would be like asking me who makes the better wire - a blonde or a redhead!
EVERY rating any person can give is entirely subjective so what sounds 'best' to my ear might not to yours. The drivers I mentioned were used in PA systems capable of 120dB+, but sounded better than most hifi speakers at domestic levels. If I had to make a choice for a domestic speaker I would choose the Beyma AMT every time; I happen to like the sound signature and limited vertical dispersion. (I know someone who built a PA system using 3 x TPL150/H on each side, where the laser-like vertical dispersion was useful in some 'difficult' venues). AMT waterfall plots show a very quick decay time, which I believe is most important right across the frequency spectrum, and the THD levels are exceptionally low, and stay low at higher sound levels, unlike the rising THD levels typical in compression drivers. (This is largely irrelevant at domestic reproduction levels, but can make PA systems 'tiring').
Efficiencies of drivers like these are such that you can use a truly tiny high quality amplifier - 10W would be ample - which could be an advantage, as is the case with most PA HF drivers used in domestic settings.
The beryllium Radian is unknown to my ears, but I suspect it is exceptional if the normal one is anything to go by. They are so expensive though, and I doubt if anyone could reliably identify in blind testing which of the three they were listening to...
Confirmation bias is an extremely powerful factor in our hobby, and if you have four-figure sums to spend on a pair of HF drivers, whichever you choose is likely to be 'The Best'.
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When I created this topic, I didn't hope for anything other than the expression of his own subjective opinion about rating sound quality of drivers. But apart from you, no one wanted to do even that, alas.
And if you have one person saying a driver sucks because they didn't do a good job on the horn compensation or crossed it to low.
Then you have another who did it right and thinks they are great.
Who do you believe?
The same compression driver on different waveguides or horns requires different compensation
Different horns and waveguides sound different with differing DI using the same compression driver.
Your question unintentional opens a can of worms
Rob 🙂
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I did have the Beyma TPL150’s but sold them because I just could not live with the just 30 degree vertical dispersion. That’s laserbeam dispersion and did not match at all with my open baffle midrange. For the same reason I sold my Raal 140-15’s, way too limited vertical dispersion. Both are good drivers but I just can’t live with these shortcomings
I'm not afraid of it, I'll sit in one place, although of course it doesn't make me happy.
Except for this circumstance, were these the best drivers you've ever listened to? Have you ever listened to beryllium compression ones?
Do your impressions of the sound coincide with the others? If you compare Beyma 150 and Raal 140-15 with each other - below 4-10 kHz Beyma is the leader in sound, and above that - Raal?
I have never had any beryllium compression drivers so can't comapre I'm afraid. I have listened to them on a proffesional base though. The PA system in the theatre I work in had the TAD berylium drivers in them, our new system has titanium drivers and sounds much better but that says nothing about the difference between berylium and titanium, it's a completely different system all together.
If these are the best drivers I have ever had? Well, the RAAL ribbon is in my opinion or according to my taste best above 8 to 10kHz, just like any other ribbon I have ever listened to. The 'problem' with ribbons is that they lack body and weight down there which makes it very hard to blend them in with a midrange.
If you decide to use something like the Raal ribbon down to 2kHz or so you have to start your system with these tweeters and build the rest around it, otherwise you will be very disappointed because you'll end up with a speaker that sound absolutely brilliant on some recording and not so good on others (Whenever some one says their system is so good it makes bad recording even sound worse, the system is at fault) Your midrange needs to have the same speed, the same dispersion characteristics and the same distillated water like sound character otherwise you'll end up with detached highs. Yes they do sound better on top than the TPL150. The amt's on the other hand have way more scale, body or flesh and bones. They have that "twack" that Tsjiiing" that real life instruments have and that the Raal simply does less, at least in my system that is. The Raals are more hifi sounding, more polite. AMT's are something in between a compression drivers and a ribbon. They do not have the same dynamics as a real good CD nor the ultimate detail of a good ribbon but they do have a very nice mix of both. Ultimately all of the big AMT's are lacking a bit in the top end. I have had TPL150's the big ESS AMT's and some tall Chinese muck-off amt's, all have that same character, it is in the dimensions. Maybe it is just the very limited vertical dispersion and with that a unbalanced in room power response or maybe it is the added weight of a taller AMT diaphragm I don't know to be honest. Fact is that I could not get used to it and I did not want to turn my fourway system into a five way system by adding another supertweeter. Others might not have this problem, in fact a lot of people don't according to the rave reviews of this driver. So yes, they are very very good drivers but definitely not without their own compromises. I would love to hear the Beyma's in a line array though, I think they would be brilliant for that.
So what's best? As always the answer is, It depends. No speaker is perfect so pick the compromise you can or can't live with and start from there. I have only stated mine but that doens't mean that these are the same as yours. Both are good drivers and if you can live with the compromise they are about the best you can get.
If these are the best drivers I have ever had? Well, the RAAL ribbon is in my opinion or according to my taste best above 8 to 10kHz, just like any other ribbon I have ever listened to. The 'problem' with ribbons is that they lack body and weight down there which makes it very hard to blend them in with a midrange.
If you decide to use something like the Raal ribbon down to 2kHz or so you have to start your system with these tweeters and build the rest around it, otherwise you will be very disappointed because you'll end up with a speaker that sound absolutely brilliant on some recording and not so good on others (Whenever some one says their system is so good it makes bad recording even sound worse, the system is at fault) Your midrange needs to have the same speed, the same dispersion characteristics and the same distillated water like sound character otherwise you'll end up with detached highs. Yes they do sound better on top than the TPL150. The amt's on the other hand have way more scale, body or flesh and bones. They have that "twack" that Tsjiiing" that real life instruments have and that the Raal simply does less, at least in my system that is. The Raals are more hifi sounding, more polite. AMT's are something in between a compression drivers and a ribbon. They do not have the same dynamics as a real good CD nor the ultimate detail of a good ribbon but they do have a very nice mix of both. Ultimately all of the big AMT's are lacking a bit in the top end. I have had TPL150's the big ESS AMT's and some tall Chinese muck-off amt's, all have that same character, it is in the dimensions. Maybe it is just the very limited vertical dispersion and with that a unbalanced in room power response or maybe it is the added weight of a taller AMT diaphragm I don't know to be honest. Fact is that I could not get used to it and I did not want to turn my fourway system into a five way system by adding another supertweeter. Others might not have this problem, in fact a lot of people don't according to the rave reviews of this driver. So yes, they are very very good drivers but definitely not without their own compromises. I would love to hear the Beyma's in a line array though, I think they would be brilliant for that.
So what's best? As always the answer is, It depends. No speaker is perfect so pick the compromise you can or can't live with and start from there. I have only stated mine but that doens't mean that these are the same as yours. Both are good drivers and if you can live with the compromise they are about the best you can get.
I had a pair of the Radian 850PB and I agree with MrKlinky it's a killer driver but for HiFi use it can be improved by using a bigger back cover with good absorbing material.
Reflection of the back cover is to be avoided at all cause with any compression driver.
Klaus
Reflection of the back cover is to be avoided at all cause with any compression driver.
Klaus
Folks who are involved in this hobby are almost as variable as the reasons why. Some folks love the gear….others it’s nostalgia while for some it might be discovery….and the list goes on an on. But for each primary reason, there’s a speaker a user will love and another one despised and quite often those factors may have little to nothing to do with our baseline of measured performance.
But we CAN make some baseline statements about horn loaded compression systems and that they are resonant systems. From an analytical point of view say a working man’s perspective using a speaker for monitoring……abrupt phase shifts within a horn mouth and throat aren’t a worthwhile tradeoff For the low distortion character they’re often revealed for. Adding that IME, I have yet to come across a CD/Lens system that I could not excite to annoyance within an hour of listening through various tracks……it’s fatiguing and disappointing.
So for me, as an end user……all factors considered such as the above, larger size, required listening distance……..CD/Horns aren’t my thing…….and trust me…………….its not for a lack of trying.
I’ll add this……as a ribbon guy (yes crossed high as I too agree about the weightless bottom integration with mids) I’m finding AMT tech evolving and improving to the point of becoming the frontier high frequency transducer of this decade. Take all this with a grain of salt of course as I’m a sit down and shut up listener……..those that need to sashay around the room will need greater vertical dispersion to fuel the dance.
But we CAN make some baseline statements about horn loaded compression systems and that they are resonant systems. From an analytical point of view say a working man’s perspective using a speaker for monitoring……abrupt phase shifts within a horn mouth and throat aren’t a worthwhile tradeoff For the low distortion character they’re often revealed for. Adding that IME, I have yet to come across a CD/Lens system that I could not excite to annoyance within an hour of listening through various tracks……it’s fatiguing and disappointing.
So for me, as an end user……all factors considered such as the above, larger size, required listening distance……..CD/Horns aren’t my thing…….and trust me…………….its not for a lack of trying.
I’ll add this……as a ribbon guy (yes crossed high as I too agree about the weightless bottom integration with mids) I’m finding AMT tech evolving and improving to the point of becoming the frontier high frequency transducer of this decade. Take all this with a grain of salt of course as I’m a sit down and shut up listener……..those that need to sashay around the room will need greater vertical dispersion to fuel the dance.