Hi guys, been a while since I last posted 🙂
Im looking at getting a Yamaha receiver or AVR and I've narrowed my choices down to the Yamaha RX-V383 (5.1 AVR) or the R-S202 (stereo receiver).
The RX-V383 states the rated power as:
(2ch driven) 20Hz-20kHz, 6 Ohm, 0.09% THD - 70W + 70W
Dynamic output power (IHF)
110/130/150W (6/4/2Ohms)
Maximum effective output power (per channel)
1kHz, 6Ohm, 10% THD - 135W/ch
The R-S202 rated power:
(2ch driven) 40Hz-20kHz, 8 Ohm, 0.2% THD - 100W + 100W
Dynamic output power (IHF)
125/150/165/180W (8/6/4/2Ohms)
Maximum effective output power (per channel)
1kHz, 8Ohm, 10% THD - 140W/ch
So i'm trying to work out which one is better in terms of raw stereo output, desregarding any 5.1 specifications as I will mainly be using it for stereo operation. Im tempted to go for the R-S202 as its 100+100W but why is it only specifying from 40-20kHz? If we try to convert this to 20-20kHz how would it compare with AVR power rating? and it has the higher THD of 0.2% as oppose to 0.09% of the AVR. Am I safer to go with lower distorition and wider frequency range of the AVR?
Thanks for any input 🙂
Im looking at getting a Yamaha receiver or AVR and I've narrowed my choices down to the Yamaha RX-V383 (5.1 AVR) or the R-S202 (stereo receiver).
The RX-V383 states the rated power as:
(2ch driven) 20Hz-20kHz, 6 Ohm, 0.09% THD - 70W + 70W
Dynamic output power (IHF)
110/130/150W (6/4/2Ohms)
Maximum effective output power (per channel)
1kHz, 6Ohm, 10% THD - 135W/ch
The R-S202 rated power:
(2ch driven) 40Hz-20kHz, 8 Ohm, 0.2% THD - 100W + 100W
Dynamic output power (IHF)
125/150/165/180W (8/6/4/2Ohms)
Maximum effective output power (per channel)
1kHz, 8Ohm, 10% THD - 140W/ch
So i'm trying to work out which one is better in terms of raw stereo output, desregarding any 5.1 specifications as I will mainly be using it for stereo operation. Im tempted to go for the R-S202 as its 100+100W but why is it only specifying from 40-20kHz? If we try to convert this to 20-20kHz how would it compare with AVR power rating? and it has the higher THD of 0.2% as oppose to 0.09% of the AVR. Am I safer to go with lower distorition and wider frequency range of the AVR?
Thanks for any input 🙂
I would reject both on the grounds that from the specification the output voltage collapses when the current demand increases.
Take the 70W+70W @ 0.09% THD
This tells you the maximum power with both channels driven into 6ohms+6ohms. and tells you the output is 29Vpk when the current is 4.8Apk
Now look at the IHF ratings where the duty cycle is reduced drastically to try to keep the PSU voltage high and make the amplifier look good in the specifications compared to all the other current crippled competition.
@ low duty cycle and probably one channel driven:
110W into 6ohms is 41.9Vpk & 7Apk
130W into 4ohms is 32.2Vpk & 8.1Apk
150W into 2ohms is 24.5Vpk & 12.2Apk
note that the output voltage has collapsed when trying to drive the lower impedances.
If the data for 0.1% THD were given these results would be even worse.
Repeating this exercise for the S202 will show similar voltage collapse.
Take the 70W+70W @ 0.09% THD
This tells you the maximum power with both channels driven into 6ohms+6ohms. and tells you the output is 29Vpk when the current is 4.8Apk
Now look at the IHF ratings where the duty cycle is reduced drastically to try to keep the PSU voltage high and make the amplifier look good in the specifications compared to all the other current crippled competition.
@ low duty cycle and probably one channel driven:
110W into 6ohms is 41.9Vpk & 7Apk
130W into 4ohms is 32.2Vpk & 8.1Apk
150W into 2ohms is 24.5Vpk & 12.2Apk
note that the output voltage has collapsed when trying to drive the lower impedances.
If the data for 0.1% THD were given these results would be even worse.
Repeating this exercise for the S202 will show similar voltage collapse.
The R-S202 spec also states THD (CD, etc to Speakers) of 0.2% or less (20-20kHz, 50W/8Ohms).
Can we flip this around to get the actual power is 50W+50W for 20-20kHz, 8Ohms, 0.2%THD?
So does the power drop from 100Wx2 to 50Wx2 going from 40-20kHz to 20-20kHz? quite a big drop... or have I got it confused :S
Can we flip this around to get the actual power is 50W+50W for 20-20kHz, 8Ohms, 0.2%THD?
So does the power drop from 100Wx2 to 50Wx2 going from 40-20kHz to 20-20kHz? quite a big drop... or have I got it confused :S
First off if you are only planning to listen to music forget AV amps , most are voiced to emphasize booming bass and shout in the midrange.
Yamaha have a tendency, like many other manufacturers, to quote outputs designed to attract novice users that want the biggest watt rating for their money and manipulate the figures accordingly.
Look for a ' proper ' 2 channel amp that quotes the max power @ 0.1 % THD+N into 8 ohms with 50 - 75 watt per channel which will be all most people would ever need , and 20Hz-20kHz is more than adequate .
Yamaha have a tendency, like many other manufacturers, to quote outputs designed to attract novice users that want the biggest watt rating for their money and manipulate the figures accordingly.
Look for a ' proper ' 2 channel amp that quotes the max power @ 0.1 % THD+N into 8 ohms with 50 - 75 watt per channel which will be all most people would ever need , and 20Hz-20kHz is more than adequate .
Thanks guys!
Been looking for a proper stereo amp (within budget) what do you think about this...
Sherwood AX-50 Integrated Amplifier
50 Watts x 2 @ 8Ω, 20Hz~20kHz 0.07% THD.
It's a small-ish amp although it has a toroidal transformer, some big caps and huge heat sink and weighs 6.5kg! (almost as much as the big Yamaha AVR - & costs $100 more than the AVR).
How can you compare the power rating of this to the Yamaha AVR which has 70Wx2 (2ch driven) 20Hz-20kHz, 8 Ohm, 0.09% THD. Is this still better even though it has lower power? What other factors should you look for when comparing raw power output other than thd, freq range and ohms. Does things like the size of the heat sink and the transformer type a better hint to look for in power/sound quality?
And just for comparison 🙂 I've also attached a photo of the Yamaha AVR internal - it has the smaller heatsink, standard transformer and the 2 caps...
Been looking for a proper stereo amp (within budget) what do you think about this...
Sherwood AX-50 Integrated Amplifier
50 Watts x 2 @ 8Ω, 20Hz~20kHz 0.07% THD.
It's a small-ish amp although it has a toroidal transformer, some big caps and huge heat sink and weighs 6.5kg! (almost as much as the big Yamaha AVR - & costs $100 more than the AVR).
How can you compare the power rating of this to the Yamaha AVR which has 70Wx2 (2ch driven) 20Hz-20kHz, 8 Ohm, 0.09% THD. Is this still better even though it has lower power? What other factors should you look for when comparing raw power output other than thd, freq range and ohms. Does things like the size of the heat sink and the transformer type a better hint to look for in power/sound quality?
And just for comparison 🙂 I've also attached a photo of the Yamaha AVR internal - it has the smaller heatsink, standard transformer and the 2 caps...
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Another important factor while looking at amps is this: what speakers will you be driving with that amp?
Simply put that Sherwood would leave the Yamaha for dead 🙂
Power supply is crucial to the performance of any amp the main factor being it's ability to supply and have current in reserve for big dynamic peaks .
Sherwood is one of those brands that tend to go ' under the radar ' , here in the UK at least , but people that have them are generally happy and they get very positive
feedback/reviews .
As the previous poster asked though , what are your speakers ?
Worth mentioning ... Sherwood was originally an American brand now owned and made by Inkel in South Korea.
Power supply is crucial to the performance of any amp the main factor being it's ability to supply and have current in reserve for big dynamic peaks .
Sherwood is one of those brands that tend to go ' under the radar ' , here in the UK at least , but people that have them are generally happy and they get very positive
feedback/reviews .
As the previous poster asked though , what are your speakers ?
Worth mentioning ... Sherwood was originally an American brand now owned and made by Inkel in South Korea.
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My plan is to use the amp to run a pair of Wharfedale AT-200 bookshelf speakers. They are a reasonbly priced entry level model
Drivers
Bass: 170mm
Mid: n/a
Tweeter: 28mm dome
Power Handling (RMS): 100W
Nominal Imp.: 6 ohm
Sensitivity: 88dB
Freq Response: 55Hz-20kHz
Size (HxWxD) mm: 385 x 210 x 245
Not sure how they would match up with either the sherwood or the Yamaha amps. Would it be worth the extra $100 in getting the Sherwood amp for these...would I need more power as these are 100Wrms each!
Drivers
Bass: 170mm
Mid: n/a
Tweeter: 28mm dome
Power Handling (RMS): 100W
Nominal Imp.: 6 ohm
Sensitivity: 88dB
Freq Response: 55Hz-20kHz
Size (HxWxD) mm: 385 x 210 x 245
Not sure how they would match up with either the sherwood or the Yamaha amps. Would it be worth the extra $100 in getting the Sherwood amp for these...would I need more power as these are 100Wrms each!
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With all respect you seem to have fallen into the widespread belief that speaker power ratings equal output wattage.
They don't , most speakers have two quoted figures .....
Continuous and maximum , the first being how much power it can handle for a prolonged period and the second the absolute maximum for a very very short period , ie milliseconds.
Speaker ratings are another trick manufacturers use to entice the novice , for example you often see all in one type systems boasting 1250 watts!
They achieve this figure by taking the rated output of each channel measured at something like 25% distortion into 2 ohms add the channels together then take the max speaker input rating add them together then add that figure to the output ratings for the total ' power '.
It's easy to manipulate a system with a ' real ' rating of say 25 watts into a monster 1250 watts by doing this.
Those speakers will work fine with any ' real ' amp of 30-50 watts .
In the real world in the average living room most people rarely listen at more than a handful of watts , the trick is getting an amp that will drive your speakers with ease and have plenty of headroom in reserve for when it's needed.
They don't , most speakers have two quoted figures .....
Continuous and maximum , the first being how much power it can handle for a prolonged period and the second the absolute maximum for a very very short period , ie milliseconds.
Speaker ratings are another trick manufacturers use to entice the novice , for example you often see all in one type systems boasting 1250 watts!
They achieve this figure by taking the rated output of each channel measured at something like 25% distortion into 2 ohms add the channels together then take the max speaker input rating add them together then add that figure to the output ratings for the total ' power '.
It's easy to manipulate a system with a ' real ' rating of say 25 watts into a monster 1250 watts by doing this.
Those speakers will work fine with any ' real ' amp of 30-50 watts .
In the real world in the average living room most people rarely listen at more than a handful of watts , the trick is getting an amp that will drive your speakers with ease and have plenty of headroom in reserve for when it's needed.
Just to add to what Konzentr8 said; the power ratings of the speakers are less important. How loud they will be is largely defined by their sensitivity. 88 dB is not that sensitive but not problematic. Since your speakers have a nominal impedance of 6 ohms, I would tend to look at amplifier specs at 4 ohms (since your speakers will most likely touch 4 ohms on some frequencies).
The Sherwood amp does not specify ratings lower than 8 ohms. Given its construction (tiny and packed enclosure), there might be a concern with heat dissipation at higher listening levels. Sound wise the amp will probably be okay. Just give it plenty of air so that it can cool properly if you would buy that amp.
The Sherwood amp does not specify ratings lower than 8 ohms. Given its construction (tiny and packed enclosure), there might be a concern with heat dissipation at higher listening levels. Sound wise the amp will probably be okay. Just give it plenty of air so that it can cool properly if you would buy that amp.
Thats a good point , if the amp only states 8 ohm and doesn't allow for much lower impedances then it might get hot or even overheat .
Although impedance of all speakers varies enormously during playback the fact that the Wharfedales have a nominal 6 ohm rating suggests they may drop quite low at times so you need an amp that states 4 -8 ohm to be safe .
Although impedance of all speakers varies enormously during playback the fact that the Wharfedales have a nominal 6 ohm rating suggests they may drop quite low at times so you need an amp that states 4 -8 ohm to be safe .
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Thanks for confirming that. I also just had a thorough look through the AX-50 user manual and found this hidden in the fine print .
Check the impedance of your speakers. Only connect speakers with an impedance of 8 ohms or more.
which confirms what you said above 🙂
Check the impedance of your speakers. Only connect speakers with an impedance of 8 ohms or more.
which confirms what you said above 🙂
100 watts is more than enough for any living room. I have used similar powers for pub sized venue mobile disco use.
The speakers make a huge difference.
Speakers with a bigger xmax will move more air and be louder.
My living room setup is just a USB DAC outputting less than a watt but into a 1970's 50WRMS FANE 12 inch folded horn speaker. Its fine for my medium size room.
The speakers make a huge difference.
Speakers with a bigger xmax will move more air and be louder.
My living room setup is just a USB DAC outputting less than a watt but into a 1970's 50WRMS FANE 12 inch folded horn speaker. Its fine for my medium size room.
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