Just thought I'd share this low tech junkyard project I recently started.
I recently acquired a Crate 12 watt practice amp with a 6.5 inch speaker. Nice little amp but ultimately useles for my needs.
So far my plan is this.
(1) Gut everything but the speaker (done)
(2) Glue in a 12 volt 5 AH sealed nonspillable batter (done)
(3) Install DoD Death Metal Pedal salvaged circuit as dirty preamp
(4) Install surface mount automotive tweeter on front grill cloth
(5) Install power amp and wire everything together
(6) Convert it from sealed to open enclosure by cutting the back panel in half before reattaching.
So far the project looks great but I'm totally undecided on the poweramp. I have a 15 watt low draw phono power amp type circuit lying around but I don't think it will yield enough power to really make this project shine. My next thought was pretty weird but really simple.
An automotive equalizer/power booster rated at 100 watts peak x 2. I've wired together such weird rigs in cars for playing guitar through before and they actually turned out great. Plenty of power and tone shaping headroom.
Thought this would be a nice project to share with any newbies here but also thought it better than going completely DIY and building my own power amp and pres. Minus the cost of what the junkyard parts once were, the EQ/amp is about a $24 investment.
I recently acquired a Crate 12 watt practice amp with a 6.5 inch speaker. Nice little amp but ultimately useles for my needs.
So far my plan is this.
(1) Gut everything but the speaker (done)
(2) Glue in a 12 volt 5 AH sealed nonspillable batter (done)
(3) Install DoD Death Metal Pedal salvaged circuit as dirty preamp
(4) Install surface mount automotive tweeter on front grill cloth
(5) Install power amp and wire everything together
(6) Convert it from sealed to open enclosure by cutting the back panel in half before reattaching.
So far the project looks great but I'm totally undecided on the poweramp. I have a 15 watt low draw phono power amp type circuit lying around but I don't think it will yield enough power to really make this project shine. My next thought was pretty weird but really simple.
An automotive equalizer/power booster rated at 100 watts peak x 2. I've wired together such weird rigs in cars for playing guitar through before and they actually turned out great. Plenty of power and tone shaping headroom.
Thought this would be a nice project to share with any newbies here but also thought it better than going completely DIY and building my own power amp and pres. Minus the cost of what the junkyard parts once were, the EQ/amp is about a $24 investment.
12v x 5a =60 watts. Your 12 volt 5ah battery can only give 60 watts of power for its rated time, which isn't enough to run your car amp.
I would keep the crate amp, if its only 12 watts then the 12 volt should be able to power it fine. Open it up and plug it in and test with your multimeter the secondary voltage of the transformer. I doubt its very high at all. You should be able to remove the transformer and find where the bridge rectifier is and run the 12 volt battery to it. 😉
I would keep the crate amp, if its only 12 watts then the 12 volt should be able to power it fine. Open it up and plug it in and test with your multimeter the secondary voltage of the transformer. I doubt its very high at all. You should be able to remove the transformer and find where the bridge rectifier is and run the 12 volt battery to it. 😉
Oh come on man I've powered 300 watt car amps off of 9 volt stomp box wall warts. Obviously I'm not delivering full power but the volume would shatter anything the Crate will dish out. I've actually gotten mass volume by connecting a 9 volt energizer to one.
Here's the proposed unit:
http://store.yahoo.com/bsless/403g.html
Not only does the car audio industry lie about the specs, they rate that peak power output with all frequencies boosted.
I'm willing to bet that a 200 watt peak power output of an in dash EQ/power booster with a voltage limiter will perform a whole lot better and give me easily the same amount of playing time, if not more. As it is, I'm thinking of scrapping the EQ/power booster on this project and using a low draw 15 watt phonograph power amp.
If I install a nice heavy duty 6.5 inch polypropylene woofer and high output piezo tweeter, I'll get twice the volume with the master at half level in comparison to the stock speaker driven at full volume. The 10 inch poly woofer I use for experimentation absolutely screams in comparison to driving the inferior paper guitar speakers of yesteryear.
I may give the Crate a try with battery power but overall I believe my design will result in an overall superior performance. I'm thinking of using the EQ/Power booster with a cabinet I canibalized and installed a Behringer V Amp in. With a 12 volt 17 AH battery running the V Amp and EQ/power booster which will drive a 12 and piezo, I'm sure I'll get plenty of playing time for a semi convenient light duty porta amp.
My experience with car audio gear is they greatly lie about the specs, even if the device performs up to or beyond your expectations. I understand the math but in all my Frankenstein projects the results tend to exceed the projected specs. In this project the Crate just doesn't offer enough frequency boost to make up for the V Amps signal loss. Great modelers but not until you run them through an EQ to suck out the mids and boost the lost highs.
For now I'll just keep at it and return with my results to reveal whether this will all be worth the extra effort.
Here's the proposed unit:
http://store.yahoo.com/bsless/403g.html
Not only does the car audio industry lie about the specs, they rate that peak power output with all frequencies boosted.
I'm willing to bet that a 200 watt peak power output of an in dash EQ/power booster with a voltage limiter will perform a whole lot better and give me easily the same amount of playing time, if not more. As it is, I'm thinking of scrapping the EQ/power booster on this project and using a low draw 15 watt phonograph power amp.
If I install a nice heavy duty 6.5 inch polypropylene woofer and high output piezo tweeter, I'll get twice the volume with the master at half level in comparison to the stock speaker driven at full volume. The 10 inch poly woofer I use for experimentation absolutely screams in comparison to driving the inferior paper guitar speakers of yesteryear.
I may give the Crate a try with battery power but overall I believe my design will result in an overall superior performance. I'm thinking of using the EQ/Power booster with a cabinet I canibalized and installed a Behringer V Amp in. With a 12 volt 17 AH battery running the V Amp and EQ/power booster which will drive a 12 and piezo, I'm sure I'll get plenty of playing time for a semi convenient light duty porta amp.
My experience with car audio gear is they greatly lie about the specs, even if the device performs up to or beyond your expectations. I understand the math but in all my Frankenstein projects the results tend to exceed the projected specs. In this project the Crate just doesn't offer enough frequency boost to make up for the V Amps signal loss. Great modelers but not until you run them through an EQ to suck out the mids and boost the lost highs.
For now I'll just keep at it and return with my results to reveal whether this will all be worth the extra effort.
LOL ok you do what you want, if it works, hey more power to you. Hey by the way, if I might sugguest something...
Paper speakers are much better than poly- ESPECIALLY for guitar.
Maybe yours isnt all that great, but there are some that are. Because of the low power output of amps back in the 50's and 60's, they had to get creative and design speakers that were efficient enough to make lots of volume out of low power. A vintage 50 watt tube amp is almost twice as loud as a modern transistor amp of the same power. Most of the old speakers were rated at 100db @ 1w/1meter or more. I bet the one in your crate is only 87-90 db efficient
Get an old speaker, or even a new one from emminence, peavey or jensen thats efficiency is up in the 100's and you won't need as much power to make it louder. My 1 watt 50c5 tube amp I'm working on will get VERY loud into an efficient speaker, just to give you an idea.
Another comparison are my vintage Sansui sp-1500 floor speakers. They are rated at 60 watts max each- 12 inch woofer ( with an insane 6 inch magnet on the back and 2 inch voice coil😱 ) ...rated at 20 watts on the back I might add.. .6 inch alnico mid, 5 inch alnico upper mid, and two 40 watt metal dome tweeters. The pair is rated at 99db 1w/1m. They will blow you away when only running 15 watts into them , and is considerably louder than 50 watts into my 90db efficient marantz's.
I guess what I'm saying here is 15 watts into a very efficient speaker should be all you need, and will cut down on cost of materials, size, and power needed. 😉
TSD88~
Paper speakers are much better than poly- ESPECIALLY for guitar.
Maybe yours isnt all that great, but there are some that are. Because of the low power output of amps back in the 50's and 60's, they had to get creative and design speakers that were efficient enough to make lots of volume out of low power. A vintage 50 watt tube amp is almost twice as loud as a modern transistor amp of the same power. Most of the old speakers were rated at 100db @ 1w/1meter or more. I bet the one in your crate is only 87-90 db efficient
Get an old speaker, or even a new one from emminence, peavey or jensen thats efficiency is up in the 100's and you won't need as much power to make it louder. My 1 watt 50c5 tube amp I'm working on will get VERY loud into an efficient speaker, just to give you an idea.
Another comparison are my vintage Sansui sp-1500 floor speakers. They are rated at 60 watts max each- 12 inch woofer ( with an insane 6 inch magnet on the back and 2 inch voice coil😱 ) ...rated at 20 watts on the back I might add.. .6 inch alnico mid, 5 inch alnico upper mid, and two 40 watt metal dome tweeters. The pair is rated at 99db 1w/1m. They will blow you away when only running 15 watts into them , and is considerably louder than 50 watts into my 90db efficient marantz's.
I guess what I'm saying here is 15 watts into a very efficient speaker should be all you need, and will cut down on cost of materials, size, and power needed. 😉
TSD88~
Oh come on man no need to assume I'm completely inexperienced here. I'm willing to bet my speaker knowledge is up to par with yours and in some areas likely exceeds it. As good as any paper musical instrument speaker may be, many speakers of modern designs will outperform them even with lesser dB ratings.
Besides, that information I relayed about peak ratings is quite accurate. You stressed the math but then said 100 watts RMS is equal to 200 watts peak. Not according to the math it isn't.
I'm thinking of loading it with a thick coned automotive grade 6.5 inch pure polypropylene speaker I'm familiar with and high output piezo bullet tweeter with limiter. I'll get twice the volume at half the wattage and achieve a much greater level of fidelity than a "classic" paper speaker. As it is, speaker technology has seen almost no changes over the last 100 years aside from the materials used.
Personaly I think the musical instrument industry is due for a major update into modern times. Paper sounds good but is far less dynamic when compared to other materials. One of the best cabinets I've built is loaded with 2 10 inch heeeeavy duty subs, 2 Jensen MOD 10's(greenback clones) and 2 high output piezo tweeters with an excellent frequency response and more importantly, performance.
With my knowledge I'm willing to bet I could choose a speaker of modern materials and design to replace those Jensens with no loss of sound quality or performance.
Paper is great but...I believe it's superiority is greatly exagerated in certain applications. Low wattage applications is ABSOLUTELY one of them. The right modern speaker will sound richer and fuller while delivering the same level of clarity a pure paper speaker of yesteryears design will.
I'm poor dude, I bet I've done a looooot of experimenting that is so far outside the box that guys learning by the book would never even consider.
Oh incidently, have you stayed current and followed solid wood cone technology?
The math and performance proves it to be far superior to any other cone material including paper. I'd love to see guitar speakers updated in design and utilize solid wood cone technology...and yes that's solid wood I'm referencing not wood pulp
Besides, that information I relayed about peak ratings is quite accurate. You stressed the math but then said 100 watts RMS is equal to 200 watts peak. Not according to the math it isn't.
I'm thinking of loading it with a thick coned automotive grade 6.5 inch pure polypropylene speaker I'm familiar with and high output piezo bullet tweeter with limiter. I'll get twice the volume at half the wattage and achieve a much greater level of fidelity than a "classic" paper speaker. As it is, speaker technology has seen almost no changes over the last 100 years aside from the materials used.
Personaly I think the musical instrument industry is due for a major update into modern times. Paper sounds good but is far less dynamic when compared to other materials. One of the best cabinets I've built is loaded with 2 10 inch heeeeavy duty subs, 2 Jensen MOD 10's(greenback clones) and 2 high output piezo tweeters with an excellent frequency response and more importantly, performance.
With my knowledge I'm willing to bet I could choose a speaker of modern materials and design to replace those Jensens with no loss of sound quality or performance.
Paper is great but...I believe it's superiority is greatly exagerated in certain applications. Low wattage applications is ABSOLUTELY one of them. The right modern speaker will sound richer and fuller while delivering the same level of clarity a pure paper speaker of yesteryears design will.
I'm poor dude, I bet I've done a looooot of experimenting that is so far outside the box that guys learning by the book would never even consider.
Oh incidently, have you stayed current and followed solid wood cone technology?
The math and performance proves it to be far superior to any other cone material including paper. I'd love to see guitar speakers updated in design and utilize solid wood cone technology...and yes that's solid wood I'm referencing not wood pulp
I guess I am mystified. If you already have all the answers, why are you here?
I can't quite spot where Speakerdude mentioned 100 watts and 200 watts.
Why on earth would you want tweeters on a guitar cab? Especially shrieky little piezos? The whole point of guitar speakers is they roll off somewhere in the 3k to 5k range. Piezos are efficient, and reduce the need for a crossover. They are the tweeter of choice for cheap equipment. But they sound awful. I have yet to hear a piezo that was worth a damn. I wouldn't want one in a guitar amp, but in PA speakers, they are sometimes used in entry level speakers, and they universally sound bad.
Fidelity is for hifi, not guitar speakers. Guitar amps are there to produce sound, not reproduce sound. The amp adds its own sound as does the speaker. That is why some players like a Fender and others like a MArshall - for the sound of the amp. The guitar amp and speaker is PART of the instrument.
I can't quite spot where Speakerdude mentioned 100 watts and 200 watts.
Why on earth would you want tweeters on a guitar cab? Especially shrieky little piezos? The whole point of guitar speakers is they roll off somewhere in the 3k to 5k range. Piezos are efficient, and reduce the need for a crossover. They are the tweeter of choice for cheap equipment. But they sound awful. I have yet to hear a piezo that was worth a damn. I wouldn't want one in a guitar amp, but in PA speakers, they are sometimes used in entry level speakers, and they universally sound bad.
Fidelity is for hifi, not guitar speakers. Guitar amps are there to produce sound, not reproduce sound. The amp adds its own sound as does the speaker. That is why some players like a Fender and others like a MArshall - for the sound of the amp. The guitar amp and speaker is PART of the instrument.
I think this could explain your lack of understanding?, presumably your experiences are with in-car equipment?.
This is a completely different environment, very unsuited to audio, for example it's too small to get any decent bass - hence the bump, bump, bump, bass you get in cars.
In-car speakers have wildly exaggerated power ratings, aren't very efficient, and are completely unsuitable for instrument use.
To get volume you need to pump air - either move a big cone small distances, or a small cone large distances, generally a large cone is FAR better at moving air. Small cones don't produce low bass, so you usually have to use 'tricks' to help them, generally by using bass boost and much more power than required.
If I was gonna build a battery amp I'd absolutely use class-D; top efficiency and valvey sound. A 10watt amp-3 or -6 from 41hz.com and a celestion vintage 30 would give portability and usable stage levels for small gigs. Your pedal board is your preamp.
Assuming electric guitar ?
Assuming electric guitar ?
float said:
Certainly class D is more efficient, but it's also generally more complicated - but why 'valvey sound', I wasn't aware of any such suggestion for class D amps?. Personally I would have thought clipping a class D amp is just as bad (if not worse?) as clipping a class AB transistor amp?.
Nigel Goodwin said:
I dont think they're complicated; the amps referred to are tiny, simple and only need a battery PS. I've not heard one myself, but comments suggest a sound between tube and SS; granted, clipping could sound awful.
Nigel Goodwin said:
Sorry but you're completely out of your league here. Why are you being so arrogant and assuming I not only know nothing about speakers but have done no experimenting with them??
I've been working with speakers of over 10 years.
If you know what to look for, you get the results I keep telling you...obviously I might as well be telling a wall.
MrGuitardeath said:
Purely from what you've said!, but I don't consider myself arrogant, nor would I accuse other people of being so. I'm quoting basic facts backed up by supporting maths, whereas you don't even have the basic knowledge of the relationship between RMS and peak?.
Is that all?.
I'm happy to see you know more, and get better results, than all the speaker manufacturers and professional audio engineers in the world. I look forward to seeing your imaginative designs revolutionise the audio world!.
AUTOMOTIVE grade?? Audio suicide for a guitar amp!!
No car speakers in amps..
And no, speakers with less db ratings can NOT out perform a speaker with a higher db rating, its against the laws of physics. Yes they can sound better ( for sound reproduction and bass in small areas, but they will not be as loud, especially not in guitar applications.)
Two boom boom 10 inch bandpass subs, no matter what their made out of, yes they will be loud, but cannot out perform two well-designed 12 inch paper cone woofers in well designed enclosures for tighter, more accurate bass with faster transients (due to lighter cones) The main reason car speakers are rated at insane power ratings is because of their lack of efficiency, most car speakers dont reach the 90db efficiency mark. Thus they need more power to make the same amount of sound. This is mainly because your soundstage is much smaller in a car than on stage or at home. It is very very very small infact, and that is why the speakers don't need to be as efficient. Gosh if they could design car speakers 102db efficient we would only need 10 watt amps to do what 100 watts does! 😀
Seriously dude, for your project get rid of the crappy car speaker and use a proper guitar speaker- It will sound better and will be louder and you wont need as much power.
By the way, I can make you a bet that my old sansui floor speakers put out more, deeper, and more accurate bass than your car subs with WAYYYYY less power. I'm not talking 45 hz tuned bandpass sound, I mean sound that reaches all the way down into the gutteral 28hz regions- with only 15 watts of power, run their rated 60 into them and prepare for a heart attack. The reality is that they will produce more SPL's than any car sub for 1/10th the power.
P.S
I have been working with speakers for 5 years at least (not as long as you though Nigel Goodwin) , and have been working with electronics since I was 6, and building amplifiers and other items for years now.
And yes, I have seen the wood cones. They actually have been around for a while now. They might sound better than paper, but would have to be cut so thin they would not be flexable enough to withstand much abuse.
And no, you cannot win over the world by saying that other materials are more dynamic than paper, were not going by the book , rather by fact.
No car speakers in amps..
And no, speakers with less db ratings can NOT out perform a speaker with a higher db rating, its against the laws of physics. Yes they can sound better ( for sound reproduction and bass in small areas, but they will not be as loud, especially not in guitar applications.)
Two boom boom 10 inch bandpass subs, no matter what their made out of, yes they will be loud, but cannot out perform two well-designed 12 inch paper cone woofers in well designed enclosures for tighter, more accurate bass with faster transients (due to lighter cones) The main reason car speakers are rated at insane power ratings is because of their lack of efficiency, most car speakers dont reach the 90db efficiency mark. Thus they need more power to make the same amount of sound. This is mainly because your soundstage is much smaller in a car than on stage or at home. It is very very very small infact, and that is why the speakers don't need to be as efficient. Gosh if they could design car speakers 102db efficient we would only need 10 watt amps to do what 100 watts does! 😀
Seriously dude, for your project get rid of the crappy car speaker and use a proper guitar speaker- It will sound better and will be louder and you wont need as much power.
By the way, I can make you a bet that my old sansui floor speakers put out more, deeper, and more accurate bass than your car subs with WAYYYYY less power. I'm not talking 45 hz tuned bandpass sound, I mean sound that reaches all the way down into the gutteral 28hz regions- with only 15 watts of power, run their rated 60 into them and prepare for a heart attack. The reality is that they will produce more SPL's than any car sub for 1/10th the power.
P.S
I have been working with speakers for 5 years at least (not as long as you though Nigel Goodwin) , and have been working with electronics since I was 6, and building amplifiers and other items for years now.
And yes, I have seen the wood cones. They actually have been around for a while now. They might sound better than paper, but would have to be cut so thin they would not be flexable enough to withstand much abuse.
And no, you cannot win over the world by saying that other materials are more dynamic than paper, were not going by the book , rather by fact.
Nigel, you are a complete fraud. You stated that 100 watts RMS is 200 watts peak....maybe you don't realise those posts prior to this can be referenced again. Then you want to reference the math that I brought into the picture.
Laws of physics aye??
That's funny because I've witnessed dB readings off the board from a single 12 inch sub rated 90 dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter produce 130 dB levels...maybe you don't understand the concept of enclosure design and equipment like high voltage line driver??
You guys aren't staying current is the problem here. Sure your sansui's will outperform SOME modern designs but not ALL. You guys think you have all the answers but you don't...it's absolutely arrogant.
I've been working with speakers for over 10 years. I stay current, something you'd both like to believe you do as well but obviously do not. This arguement is absurd.
You don't know about the new methods being used to produce modern wood cones, that I am sure of. You have obviously not followed the new technology being used to produce these speakers and their performance & ratings that make your Sansui's sound like the dinosaurs they are. Every guy out there has some magical speakers from the 50's, 60's, or 70's that no modern speaker or enclosure can compare to.
Meanwhile I piece together the right speakers from the swelling sea of modern designs that make them sound like what they truly are, inferior.
There is probably over 100 different brands out there producing automotive, home audio, pro audio and musical instrument audio speakers. I've bought a LOT of speakers and worked with a variety of different enclosure types and configurations, some being rather unorthodox. Automotive grade speakers are actually MORE efficient than pro audio speakers. They are designed to have low SPL ratings for a reason. They are going to be used in confined spaces. They are designed to be extremely efficient in small enclosures but perform just as well in more practical designs. Funny you mentioned paper because I'm looking at a set of automotive grade speakers right now that are all paper with the classic foam suspension from the 80's.
The speaker I am intending to use is actually a general purpose speaker that has been marketed to the public primarily as an automotive speaker. About half a dozen major brands sell their version of it but they're all coming out of the same factory anyway. Some sell it for automotive use, some home use and some for pro audio. This is just absurd!
I've spent hours and hours comparing speakers, contacting the manufacturers, researching materials, manufacturing methods, enclosure types, wiring scenarios and crossover circuits and last but not least, actually buying what I had researched and then putting them to the tests. It's absurd to reference an SPL rating when it's based on a scale of 1 watt @ 1 meter. If you truly believe a speaker is reaching it's maximum efficiency at 1 watt @ 1 meter, you might as well just pack it in and buy from Bose.
Laws of physics aye??
That's funny because I've witnessed dB readings off the board from a single 12 inch sub rated 90 dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter produce 130 dB levels...maybe you don't understand the concept of enclosure design and equipment like high voltage line driver??
You guys aren't staying current is the problem here. Sure your sansui's will outperform SOME modern designs but not ALL. You guys think you have all the answers but you don't...it's absolutely arrogant.
I've been working with speakers for over 10 years. I stay current, something you'd both like to believe you do as well but obviously do not. This arguement is absurd.
You don't know about the new methods being used to produce modern wood cones, that I am sure of. You have obviously not followed the new technology being used to produce these speakers and their performance & ratings that make your Sansui's sound like the dinosaurs they are. Every guy out there has some magical speakers from the 50's, 60's, or 70's that no modern speaker or enclosure can compare to.
Meanwhile I piece together the right speakers from the swelling sea of modern designs that make them sound like what they truly are, inferior.
There is probably over 100 different brands out there producing automotive, home audio, pro audio and musical instrument audio speakers. I've bought a LOT of speakers and worked with a variety of different enclosure types and configurations, some being rather unorthodox. Automotive grade speakers are actually MORE efficient than pro audio speakers. They are designed to have low SPL ratings for a reason. They are going to be used in confined spaces. They are designed to be extremely efficient in small enclosures but perform just as well in more practical designs. Funny you mentioned paper because I'm looking at a set of automotive grade speakers right now that are all paper with the classic foam suspension from the 80's.
The speaker I am intending to use is actually a general purpose speaker that has been marketed to the public primarily as an automotive speaker. About half a dozen major brands sell their version of it but they're all coming out of the same factory anyway. Some sell it for automotive use, some home use and some for pro audio. This is just absurd!
I've spent hours and hours comparing speakers, contacting the manufacturers, researching materials, manufacturing methods, enclosure types, wiring scenarios and crossover circuits and last but not least, actually buying what I had researched and then putting them to the tests. It's absurd to reference an SPL rating when it's based on a scale of 1 watt @ 1 meter. If you truly believe a speaker is reaching it's maximum efficiency at 1 watt @ 1 meter, you might as well just pack it in and buy from Bose.
Lost in Translation
OK..... Somewhere on this forum is an explaination that goes something like this:
Car stereo ratings are boosted for a few reasons...
They say "300 watt" it could mean "300 watt peak with unlimited amperage with the right humidity at 2 ohms and a 1 foot speaker cable run to a laboratory simulated speaker load..."
They say "400 watt" it could mean "Four speakers running at 100 watts peak per speaker using an unlimited amperage lab power supply at 2 ohms and a one foot cable run to a theoretically ideal speaker load."
I guess sales tactics have these numbers so inflated that trying to translate them to pro audio is a real beeatch. There are no standardized tests per the company selling the car speakers.
Plus speaker efficiency, loading, etc etc etc...
Basically car audio stuff isn't all it's hyped up to be by the advertisers...
OK..... Somewhere on this forum is an explaination that goes something like this:
Car stereo ratings are boosted for a few reasons...
They say "300 watt" it could mean "300 watt peak with unlimited amperage with the right humidity at 2 ohms and a 1 foot speaker cable run to a laboratory simulated speaker load..."
They say "400 watt" it could mean "Four speakers running at 100 watts peak per speaker using an unlimited amperage lab power supply at 2 ohms and a one foot cable run to a theoretically ideal speaker load."
I guess sales tactics have these numbers so inflated that trying to translate them to pro audio is a real beeatch. There are no standardized tests per the company selling the car speakers.
Plus speaker efficiency, loading, etc etc etc...
Basically car audio stuff isn't all it's hyped up to be by the advertisers...
MrGuitardeath said:
You're making yourself look even more silly!, ALL my posts have been correct, and I even explained to you where and why you were completely wrong in your attempt at maths. If you can't even manage the simple maths for converting RMS to peak, how do you expect to be taken at all seriously?.
I'm fully aware of the fact that previous posts are still there, I run a forum myself.
Just to keep you happy, I'll say it again - simple maths, 100W RMS is 200W peak!.
Nigel you lie so much you believe yourself!
This is ridiculous! You said 100 watts RMS is 200 watts peak. The word is MATH not maths and I was the one who put the math on the board in the first place!
You're a troll dude. Nothing more. A trolling liar out to stir up trouble. I've been coming to this forum for a couple years now and there is always some jerk like you on every forum with a huge inferiority complex trying to one up someone when given half the chance.
I've proven you're not only a liar but must be googling everything you retaliate with seeing as YOU said 100 watts RMS is 200 watts peak. I then bring in the formula 100/.707 and suddenly you know aaaaaaaaaall about calculating RMS power but of course being a troll say, I tend to use RMS x 1.414. Funny since you had previsously used the car audio industries method prior to this by simply doubling the RMS wattage to give the peak rating.
Then with the speaker business. It seems too many of you are not staying current with speaker technology. Things like high power ultra heavy magnets that are vented to reduce dampening. They are so high power and heavy because modern designs use more rigid cone material for more accurate sound reproduction and richer fuller tones when compared to paper. Being more rigid and dense doesn't even necessarily mean the cone will be heavier than paper! Get current you rubes.
Sure, you may have some math calculations to throw at me but ultimately you know half as much as you think you do.
Good luck with that chip on your should pal, you just made my ignore list.
This is ridiculous! You said 100 watts RMS is 200 watts peak. The word is MATH not maths and I was the one who put the math on the board in the first place!
You're a troll dude. Nothing more. A trolling liar out to stir up trouble. I've been coming to this forum for a couple years now and there is always some jerk like you on every forum with a huge inferiority complex trying to one up someone when given half the chance.
I've proven you're not only a liar but must be googling everything you retaliate with seeing as YOU said 100 watts RMS is 200 watts peak. I then bring in the formula 100/.707 and suddenly you know aaaaaaaaaall about calculating RMS power but of course being a troll say, I tend to use RMS x 1.414. Funny since you had previsously used the car audio industries method prior to this by simply doubling the RMS wattage to give the peak rating.
Then with the speaker business. It seems too many of you are not staying current with speaker technology. Things like high power ultra heavy magnets that are vented to reduce dampening. They are so high power and heavy because modern designs use more rigid cone material for more accurate sound reproduction and richer fuller tones when compared to paper. Being more rigid and dense doesn't even necessarily mean the cone will be heavier than paper! Get current you rubes.
Sure, you may have some math calculations to throw at me but ultimately you know half as much as you think you do.
Good luck with that chip on your should pal, you just made my ignore list.
Gentleman, drop the name calling and ego boosts. We are far more productive when cooperating the being each others opponents.
/Hugo
chrisr said:"They are designed to have low SPL ratings for a reason" ????
Yes Chris because they are being utilised in a small and confined area. You really want a 110 dB speaker aimed at you in a car??
I know I sure don't and besides, you can get speakers to exceed their dB rating which is tested by driving it with 1 watt and measuring it with a sound meter from one meter away. Now I don't know about you but I don't plan on running ANY speaker at 1 watt!
Think about it, of course paper will yield higher SPL's in such a silly test, it's paper! It's mass allows it to perform better even with such low power being applied. Now think about it this way. Compare a heavy cone material like wood pulp that is producing 90 dB @ 1 watt @1 meter. That's darn good considering the cone weight is probably 20 times the weight of the paper one, likely more. But now lets run some real current through that speaker and use a musical sound source rather than a wave produced by an tone generator. Suddenly the speakers are going to start showing that one does better at certain sound reproductions than the other. We're going to see that the rigid cone CAN deliver higher SPL's than it's been rated for. We're also going to see that overall, one is superior.
One poster sited that his Sansui 15's will blow away any automotive 15 in. woofer. This is beyond laughable seeing as it's not only a speaker from the 70's I believe he said but a speakers power handling dramatically changes as we drop down into the bass spectrum. That paper speaker couldn't handle 1/5 the wattage of the average modern 15 when getting into the 25-40 hz region. I guarantee that if he tries pushing it to the levels of the modern 15, he fries his speaker. I good rigid poly coated cone is going to handle a lot more wattage than a pure paper cone from the 70's when it comes to that frequency spectrum.
I'm not saying his paper isn't going to sound better, I'm saying overall it will not perform as well.
Paper speakers sound great because the cones deliver such a transparent sound(which is grossely and incorrectly abused with the term accurate) but they also are less accurate when driven to high volumes because their lack of rigidness which gets even worse if they use the classic accordion edge. Hence papers rep for being much more easily distorted.
Something all readers should note about PA speakers which are often models sold as musical instrument speakers as well is a PA is generally intended to be run with a subwoofer sytstem. While a lot of modern designs use woofers that can deliver sufficient bass, there is still no shortage of systems where your full range enclosures are intended to produce volume and clarity while the sub is used to add body and rumble to the systems overall tone.
There is a slight compromise in clarity with the type of set up I referenced using but ultimately your tone is richer and fuller..there is just so much more power to your playing. If these guys are the experienced guitarists they are claiming to be, they would realise a LOT of lead players run full frequency rigs. Many use full range speakers along side their guitar cabs and if you're talking live performance, 9 times out of 10 they're running through the venues PA system.
So Nigel if you're reading, do the math on that one. Don't be so naive to always trust the math
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