Haha .... i haven't read any preceding 'John Curl' posts which i assume are in play, but that quote alone is enough to make me laugh. Good post !
I've got some Stax LambaPro Signature headphones with the Class A triode amp.
About as clean, as clean can get, i think.
Sprung for Stax's silver wire cables, just to see/hear vs regular connects.
Nothing, no diff whatsoever to the regular copper.
I figure if i can't hear silver wire there, it's gotta be BS everywhere.
Well, I did not know he had said that, I've made my interconnects with silver for years. Make them yourself and they are not too expensive. Good turntables also have silver wiring to the stylus, some as original equipment.
Go figure..
I was not trying to bash John Curl. Just stating the obvious, that non of us are neutral arbiters.
From quick googleup: Silver has about 5% better electrical conductivity than copper, so less resistance. Silver is about as much heavier and more expensive than copper so there might be benefit to use silver on long high current connections. (Tube mic cable comes to my mind, bad 5m cable had too much resistance and heater didn't get enough voltage. With better cable all was fine). Both copper and silver oxidize, silver being faster than copper to oxidize. Gold doesn't oxidize but is expensive and its electrical conductivity is a lot less than copper. Copper is cheaper, more malleable than silver.
To sum up: silver has a bit lower resistance than copper, but there aren't too many use cases in audio world where there is real benefit to this (no high current long cables). Copper wire with same resistivity as silver wire is a lot cheaper, it is just a bit thicker. Otherwise silver is worse choice than copper since it is heavier, more expensive and degrades faster. So in my book silver is used because of marketing, not for audio.
Of course I'm not professional and might overlook things. Tried to come up with the relevant differences and listed them here. Carry on 😀
edit: wikipedia says that audio cable single most important factor is resistance. 5% being often used as statistical signifigance, there is a chance for silver. But it is just a lot cheaper to get same performance from copper, just use a bit thicker cable. To put this into some perspective: the difference in thickness to be meaningful in human perception scale, say 1mm for example, the cable thickness for silver would be around 4cm and for copper 4.1cm.
To sum up: silver has a bit lower resistance than copper, but there aren't too many use cases in audio world where there is real benefit to this (no high current long cables). Copper wire with same resistivity as silver wire is a lot cheaper, it is just a bit thicker. Otherwise silver is worse choice than copper since it is heavier, more expensive and degrades faster. So in my book silver is used because of marketing, not for audio.
Of course I'm not professional and might overlook things. Tried to come up with the relevant differences and listed them here. Carry on 😀
edit: wikipedia says that audio cable single most important factor is resistance. 5% being often used as statistical signifigance, there is a chance for silver. But it is just a lot cheaper to get same performance from copper, just use a bit thicker cable. To put this into some perspective: the difference in thickness to be meaningful in human perception scale, say 1mm for example, the cable thickness for silver would be around 4cm and for copper 4.1cm.
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Hi.
You make some good points, others though...
Oxidation is not a factor in my view because as used in audio with soldered or sealed connections no oxidation can take place (even on connector contact surfaces if they are not disturbed). (I suppose one does not use audio in the ocean). Other than in phono arm applications, I don't think weight is a major factor, is the fact that many high end cables using silver as the conductor could also use PTFE as the insulator? I do, some use cotton, though I have no experience of this. Resistance is lower yes, what are the other factors that can effect a signal in any way ?
Capacitance? Anything else?
All said and done, I can make 99.99 % silver cables insulated with PTFE tube for a fraction of the cost of medium priced OFC copper off the shelf ones. I'm happy with the sound of that, but we all have our own views.
You make some good points, others though...
Oxidation is not a factor in my view because as used in audio with soldered or sealed connections no oxidation can take place (even on connector contact surfaces if they are not disturbed). (I suppose one does not use audio in the ocean). Other than in phono arm applications, I don't think weight is a major factor, is the fact that many high end cables using silver as the conductor could also use PTFE as the insulator? I do, some use cotton, though I have no experience of this. Resistance is lower yes, what are the other factors that can effect a signal in any way ?
Capacitance? Anything else?
All said and done, I can make 99.99 % silver cables insulated with PTFE tube for a fraction of the cost of medium priced OFC copper off the shelf ones. I'm happy with the sound of that, but we all have our own views.
first the silver oxid conducT ,second you forgot to look at the electrons side ...cannot tell more I wont kill you 😛 is not sound the same
This is going everywhere..., waiting for the properly conducted ABX test of silver vs. copper cable. Have a hunch about that outcome. Sure the audience was tested, not the cable. 😀
Hehe, yeah 🙂 why not, one can use finer materials when ever possible. It is diminishing returns though which is against good engineering. What is against good engineering can be pro marketing though. No problem with that, each can make their own conclusion which way to go. It is nice to think through the trade-offs this way, gives clear view what is it that one is looking at.
Now that I think of it money vs. performance is often like transistor active region. Too much money and the performance goes into saturation. Copper biases conductors comfortably on the linear region of this metric 🙂 Allright, lunch break over
Now that I think of it money vs. performance is often like transistor active region. Too much money and the performance goes into saturation. Copper biases conductors comfortably on the linear region of this metric 🙂 Allright, lunch break over
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My conclusions are identical. If you cannot hear copper vs silver you should look for a more accommodating hobby. The difference is fundamental.
sorry for you, we Know why silver sound different ....as do resistor or caps and after 40year of diy's we dont need a stupid test
btw you can find some chat here with inventor of abx ArnyK 😛
I haven't taken an ABX test on cables, or anything. From engineer perspective there is no notable difference between copper and silver as material other than cost. On some edge case, the other could be better than the other if the resistance is different between the test subjects. If I take a Hifi magazine perspective there is huge difference, has to be, more expensive is better. On neutral view, I just use what is there at hand and concentrate the effort on more meaningful stuff. Jolly weekend everyone!🙂
Silver oxide is a conductor, just not a very good one.
It is also quite difficult to produce silver oxide, typically you'd combine silver nitrate with alkali hydroxide. The tarnish that so readily forms on silver is silver sulfide. Silver sulfide is famously the first known semiconductor.
As for John Curl's integrity I have one word: Bybee.
Indeed. Next they'll be claiming there isn't a black and white difference in sound that even the wife can hear between silver and black amplifier fascias. Is there no end to their suggestibility?
ArnyK has nothing to do with ABX testing.
That was devised in a 1950 paper by WA Munson and Mark B Gardner.
If Munson sounds familiar it is because some time earlier and together with some guy called Fletcher he came up with curves dealing in equal loudness contours.
Religion is only acceptable when the religious accept the heretics. I sure can hear ‘copper’ vs ‘silver’ by the way. Sounds completely different.
I can hear difference between copper and copper silver coated... uh ! nothing wrong with it. I have not melted the spouse full silver necklaces yet though, so I'm half a fanatic !
But it's weird, as soon as I use soldring with silver in it it's always giving me bad results, so I use normal soldering, with lead when I have it. I'm a an heretic who is prefering non golded printed pcbs... so I'm certainly in the "take it with some pepper camp !
But it's weird, as soon as I use soldring with silver in it it's always giving me bad results, so I use normal soldering, with lead when I have it. I'm a an heretic who is prefering non golded printed pcbs... so I'm certainly in the "take it with some pepper camp !
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Audiophiles are super humans with the power of super hearing but like all super heroes, they have one weakness..their super hearing goes away the moment their vision is blocked