Get a real computer instead of a toy.
Or if you are a child at heart, an Apogee Groove will do.
That is what I thought. Thanks SY always exactly to the point.
noun anach·ro·nism \ə-ˈna-krə-ˌni-zəm\ :something that is mistakenly placed where it does not belong.
So just hanging some "high end" DAC off the USB port does not necessarily mean you will experience above average-fi.
It would also depend somewhat on decoding software processing the FLAC or MP3 file converting its format into a common data stream that can be read by the DAC and converted to analog.
So can anyone tell me again why does one need an external DAC?
up !
The question is why one is needing an external pc for a DAC : what do you need : a dac or a treatment text ? There is not special difficulty in flac, mp3 decoding ?!
I'm not sure it's about decodind flac , mp3, etc ! If you hear a difference between two soft : your soundcard or dac is not good enough looking at the todays solutions .
You will not have nore problems with a sota soundcard if all is sota and not wasted by the external layout of the PC !
This conversation is bizare ! why a computer should be better for DAC ? it's not a question of calculation or power here ??? Putt a nano pc à la Rasberry like, it will make the same job as a Cray one supercomputer (not the Crayon dac... different !) as the process needed is low !
hummmm, Have I missed Something ! an aphorism doesn't say all the Truth !
http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/supercomputers/10/7 VS http://www.referenceaudio.co.nz/Crayon/crayon_ccd_index.html VS http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcamdenlanguages.lgfl.org.uk%2Fimages%2Fimages_fr_yr_4%2Fclassroom%252520objects%2Fun_crayon.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcamdenlanguages.lgfl.org.uk%2Ffr_year_4%2Flessons_9_10%2Fcrayon.html&h=300&w=300&tbnid=MM2an7qPoduwBM%3A&docid=7rGiN84me974fM&ei=COIbVs7QDcr9aby1muAJ&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=716&page=1&start=0&ndsp=23&ved=0CFQQrQMwC2oVChMIzvTnra-9yAIVyn4aCh28mgac (full analogic !)
The question is why one is needing an external pc for a DAC : what do you need : a dac or a treatment text ? There is not special difficulty in flac, mp3 decoding ?!
I'm not sure it's about decodind flac , mp3, etc ! If you hear a difference between two soft : your soundcard or dac is not good enough looking at the todays solutions .
You will not have nore problems with a sota soundcard if all is sota and not wasted by the external layout of the PC !
This conversation is bizare ! why a computer should be better for DAC ? it's not a question of calculation or power here ??? Putt a nano pc à la Rasberry like, it will make the same job as a Cray one supercomputer (not the Crayon dac... different !) as the process needed is low !
hummmm, Have I missed Something ! an aphorism doesn't say all the Truth !
http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/supercomputers/10/7 VS http://www.referenceaudio.co.nz/Crayon/crayon_ccd_index.html VS http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcamdenlanguages.lgfl.org.uk%2Fimages%2Fimages_fr_yr_4%2Fclassroom%252520objects%2Fun_crayon.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcamdenlanguages.lgfl.org.uk%2Ffr_year_4%2Flessons_9_10%2Fcrayon.html&h=300&w=300&tbnid=MM2an7qPoduwBM%3A&docid=7rGiN84me974fM&ei=COIbVs7QDcr9aby1muAJ&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=716&page=1&start=0&ndsp=23&ved=0CFQQrQMwC2oVChMIzvTnra-9yAIVyn4aCh28mgac (full analogic !)
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Well its a good start to getting better sound out of your computer? I have a few PCI soundcards and they sound like crap compared to my BOTL DAC.That is what I thought. Thanks SY always exactly to the point.
noun anach·ro·nism \ə-ˈna-krə-ˌni-zəm\ :something that is mistakenly placed where it does not belong.
So just hanging some "high end" DAC off the USB port does not necessarily mean you will experience above average-fi.
It would also depend somewhat on decoding software processing the FLAC or MP3 file converting its format into a common data stream that can be read by the DAC and converted to analog.
So can anyone tell me again why does one need an external DAC?
Have you heard "bit-perfect"? No problem in encoding and decoding into PCM. The problem is in achieving high dynamic and resolution from 16 bit. That process is usually inside the DAC chip.
So can anyone tell me again why does one need an external DAC?
Vac already answered. Because your laptop didn't come with whatever DAC chip is better than what you have.
as an example
ASUS Essence STX II 7.1
https://www.asus.com/Sound-Cards/Essence_STX_II_71/
Uses quality DAC and other components
ASUS Essence STX II 7.1
https://www.asus.com/Sound-Cards/Essence_STX_II_71/
Uses quality DAC and other components
but i'm not sure why a quality PCI-E soundcard will outperform a USB dac with isolation and reclocking for a good DAC chip.
I mean its hard to beat the price of that soundcard. But ultimately the overall quality of implementation, clocks, power supply, layout, analog section all go in to deciding the overall performance
I mean its hard to beat the price of that soundcard. But ultimately the overall quality of implementation, clocks, power supply, layout, analog section all go in to deciding the overall performance
Red rooster, I do not disagree for a moment. A PC is not necessary the source of the music, however it contains some electronics software and firmware to output the data stream to the DAC. All that a DAC does is take a number and convert it to an equivalent analog level.
If anyone here tells me the project is to replace the DAC in your current player whatever it may be, to a more modern higher tech DAC then maybe I will be more convinced of the need for the little chip.
Moreover, if one bit is lost in a series of data into the DAC no matter how modern, accurate or fast or smart the DAC PCB layout is, the analog output is hash.
If you guys are saying that the outside DAC is galvanic isolated from the PC, then I will agree that an external DAC may be useful to get rid of the noises sitting on the PC power line, then yes it may be essential for the amateur audiophile.
I wonder if it would be OK to use in stereo? Or would a 2 channel one if available be cheaper?
Your are right, but I'm not sure it beats a 100 euros Subbu dac with a simple spidf input ! But it is maybe better ! Who knows ! it's as simple as a AB test, then a proce ratio
the Asus is certainly usefull for someone having a pc as a media center near the hifi/tv; certainly good enough for most of people, here the people are a little fanatics (me the first).
But the topic of the thread is the best dacs and here I'm sure as seing the list above than the Asus is very far from the best of the list ! (But as you say not the same price either !)
@ Nico ras : yest it's a question of layout around the chip : board, grounding, powersupply : all in a dac is made for the goal of a best sound, not to be a module of a computer... while the technology of the chip seems to be important also : agree with Abrax than the old PCM sounds better than sigma delta !
Here a designer of computer card made a discrete R2R dac : the best tech on the paper ! the result stock sounded crap ! It's not the same job than drawing a dac board than a pc board just because not the same needs. the lowest noise regs gave poor results ! Again not the same needs than a computer ! But you surely can design a sota soundcards today, the best result will be with a dedicated audio dac chip on it : the core chip of the pc will not help in the result !
Here a guy like JULF would say it simplier than I can...
just two cents !
the Asus is certainly usefull for someone having a pc as a media center near the hifi/tv; certainly good enough for most of people, here the people are a little fanatics (me the first).
But the topic of the thread is the best dacs and here I'm sure as seing the list above than the Asus is very far from the best of the list ! (But as you say not the same price either !)
@ Nico ras : yest it's a question of layout around the chip : board, grounding, powersupply : all in a dac is made for the goal of a best sound, not to be a module of a computer... while the technology of the chip seems to be important also : agree with Abrax than the old PCM sounds better than sigma delta !
Here a designer of computer card made a discrete R2R dac : the best tech on the paper ! the result stock sounded crap ! It's not the same job than drawing a dac board than a pc board just because not the same needs. the lowest noise regs gave poor results ! Again not the same needs than a computer ! But you surely can design a sota soundcards today, the best result will be with a dedicated audio dac chip on it : the core chip of the pc will not help in the result !
Here a guy like JULF would say it simplier than I can...
just two cents !
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I wonder if it would be OK to use in stereo? Or would a 2 channel one if available be cheaper?
The default card is 2CH. The remaining 6 CH are in an add on card.
The 2CH version is around $300 and 8CH around $400
The stereo ch DAC is of a slightly better spec than the DAC used in the other channels
Jay 'bit-perfect" is marketing hype. If the DAC misses a few bits input stream, no matter how perfect the bits are the output is hash.
If anyone says that jitter is overcome with reclocking and what not, I do not believe this either because the jitter may then be caused by the design and quality of the output clock.
Besides I have doubts any amateur audiophile can hear a few ppm of phase modulation or "jitter". We have far advanced from tape decks and turntables with big flywheels spinning at a few revolutions a minute.
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Nico,
I am not sure if i understood your question.
For PC based audio some DAC options are:
1. The ASUS Essence STX II sound card appears to be a high quality solution for off the shelf buying
2. A standalone external USB DAC
3. A quality pro-audio interface like MOTU.com - Overview
Personally i am working on an active loudspeaker with a fanless HTPC working as music source, player and DSP XO. I considered the 3 options mentioned above for DAC.
Finally i settled for option 2.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/grou...kbird-multi-channel-es9018-dac-group-buy.html
I am not sure if i understood your question.
For PC based audio some DAC options are:
1. The ASUS Essence STX II sound card appears to be a high quality solution for off the shelf buying
2. A standalone external USB DAC
3. A quality pro-audio interface like MOTU.com - Overview
Personally i am working on an active loudspeaker with a fanless HTPC working as music source, player and DSP XO. I considered the 3 options mentioned above for DAC.
Finally i settled for option 2.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/grou...kbird-multi-channel-es9018-dac-group-buy.html
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Jojip,
sorry I was not clear but thanks for the link I will follow the Blackbird. BTW I am not in the market for a sound card but would like to follow a DIY stand-alone-DAC project to see where it leads.
I am a member at Head-Fi also and all I see are DAC this and DAC that - it is almost as if the industry has latched onto the concept of everything can be solved by a DAC/Headphone amplifier, milking the public of hard earned cash for something that may be completely irrelevant as SY points out.
sorry I was not clear but thanks for the link I will follow the Blackbird. BTW I am not in the market for a sound card but would like to follow a DIY stand-alone-DAC project to see where it leads.
I am a member at Head-Fi also and all I see are DAC this and DAC that - it is almost as if the industry has latched onto the concept of everything can be solved by a DAC/Headphone amplifier, milking the public of hard earned cash for something that may be completely irrelevant as SY points out.
Where a computer seems usefull today is in the pre treatment of the digital signal before analog conversion in the dedicated chip.
As you say : you can load easily all the free soft dedicated to room treatment, equalisation, flat the phase in FIR domain,
a pc is cheap, most of the best soft are free for home use. You can even plug a mic on it for real time measurement. Sometimes it's mess up if you are not a Linux guy for some dedicated softs !
There also some stuffs not coming from the expensive pro world of studio with Minidsp & Hypex for active filters. The poor is the layout of the board are made around the audio needs : so connectivity with wires is easier and the board are more versatiles (soft & hardware plug ins).
More than an Asus sound card I will pick an Hypex DSP from Hypex if the needs are just to have both an active filtering and a good dac ! And a Minidsp if there are needs in FIR domain for correction (RePhase e.g.)
damned, it's totally off topic !
Me want a : Abbingdon Music Research - CD - 77 Reference Class Disk Processor
As you say : you can load easily all the free soft dedicated to room treatment, equalisation, flat the phase in FIR domain,
a pc is cheap, most of the best soft are free for home use. You can even plug a mic on it for real time measurement. Sometimes it's mess up if you are not a Linux guy for some dedicated softs !
There also some stuffs not coming from the expensive pro world of studio with Minidsp & Hypex for active filters. The poor is the layout of the board are made around the audio needs : so connectivity with wires is easier and the board are more versatiles (soft & hardware plug ins).
More than an Asus sound card I will pick an Hypex DSP from Hypex if the needs are just to have both an active filtering and a good dac ! And a Minidsp if there are needs in FIR domain for correction (RePhase e.g.)
damned, it's totally off topic ! Me want a : Abbingdon Music Research - CD - 77 Reference Class Disk Processor
The PC/PCI card combo I use has an insanely low noise level. I keep hearing about the awfulness of the PC environment, but I can't seem to hear or measure it.
FLAC is lossless but can be compressed. ALAC is developed on top of that and continues to be supported. MP3 is lossy and not high fidelity.
With the low cost of HDs these days there is little point in compression and the use of uncompressed FLAC, WAV (beware of loosing metadata) or AIFF are what make the most sense, no decoding required.
dave