I'm sure it does LOL. I just wouldn't blame Siegfried Linkwitz' design principles like you do.
I'd place the blame squarely where it belongs. On the builder 😉 .
That's been my point all along.
cheers,
AJ
AJinFLA said:
Some Facts
Fact - you have never heard any of my speakers and have zero experiance or working concept with what I have achieved or how I have achieved it
Fact - you are a stalker that offers nothing but hot air
Fact - I have the right to place the blame where it rightfully belongs because I have have experianced the compromises
Fact - you are in this thread for one reason that should be clear to anyone that has had to go through the agony of reading it since you decided to 'participate'-
Fact - I find no reason to further communicate with you on an open forum about your stalking problem - this is not the place to argue about 'that' - email me and and provide me your phone number if you want to 'talk'
Bye Stalker
😉
AJ. & Mag.
- you DO have the ability to effectivly eradicate each others posts from your viewing..
There is a filter under your user section that allows you to do this.
I use this feature for Mac and works like a proverbial "charm". 🙂
VERY nice forum feature - wish other forums had this feature, it cuts down on "noise".
- you DO have the ability to effectivly eradicate each others posts from your viewing..
There is a filter under your user section that allows you to do this.
I use this feature for Mac and works like a proverbial "charm". 🙂
VERY nice forum feature - wish other forums had this feature, it cuts down on "noise".
Hi Magnetar,
TOTALLY agree that WMTMW is the absolute best topology using standard speakers, even for dipoles. My DIY experiments would have led me down a little different starting point. Maybe you can share where your experiments formed your choices. Thanks for sharing your education.
1) I favor monopole tweeters, even on dipoles, as I find the short wavelength rear waves reflected off rear and side surfaces fuzzy-up the sound stage.
2) I have never been able to get a uniform vertical soundstage on a WMTMW with a ribbon tweeter. Only a flush mounted dome with thick felt creates the correct presentation as the ear moves up and down in the vertical plane. Measurements and ears seem to agree on this for me, but I’ve never tried an AMT.
3) The baffle seems wide enough to cancel the 330 Hz midrange dipole wavelength if the midrange speakers are placed very near the center of the baffle. Moving the M's near one edge would seem to create an uneven response when one side loses dipole cancellation higher than the other. A challenging crossover.
4) I only design 3-way speakers and try to put as much of the human voice range on the midrange speaker, so I would have crossed the M lower even it a steeper slope was needed.
TOTALLY agree that WMTMW is the absolute best topology using standard speakers, even for dipoles. My DIY experiments would have led me down a little different starting point. Maybe you can share where your experiments formed your choices. Thanks for sharing your education.
1) I favor monopole tweeters, even on dipoles, as I find the short wavelength rear waves reflected off rear and side surfaces fuzzy-up the sound stage.
2) I have never been able to get a uniform vertical soundstage on a WMTMW with a ribbon tweeter. Only a flush mounted dome with thick felt creates the correct presentation as the ear moves up and down in the vertical plane. Measurements and ears seem to agree on this for me, but I’ve never tried an AMT.
3) The baffle seems wide enough to cancel the 330 Hz midrange dipole wavelength if the midrange speakers are placed very near the center of the baffle. Moving the M's near one edge would seem to create an uneven response when one side loses dipole cancellation higher than the other. A challenging crossover.
4) I only design 3-way speakers and try to put as much of the human voice range on the midrange speaker, so I would have crossed the M lower even it a steeper slope was needed.
AJinFLA and Magnetar: Gentlemen, please calm down. I'm sure you are both very excited by your respective loudspeakers and think that they wipe the floor with the competition. Please explain why this is so without losing your dignity by including personal attacks. We have our eye on this thread...
EC, All in good fun from my perspective😉
"I" don't like MTM's vertical and off-axis chaos. I much prefer a more point source like broadcast of power, like a coaxial tweeter/midrange arrangement and if you want to flank it with woofers above and below, I'm all for that also.
cheers,
AJ
"I" don't like MTM's vertical and off-axis chaos. I much prefer a more point source like broadcast of power, like a coaxial tweeter/midrange arrangement and if you want to flank it with woofers above and below, I'm all for that also.
cheers,
AJ
It does not come across that way from where I sit.
I am not a big fan of Magnetar, he has slammed me in the past on another forum. His posts, and his buddy's posts, caused me to stop posting on that forum. My choice.
You have shown he changes his position on speaker design over time. So have I, I have reversed or modified things in my old posts more than once. I chalk it up to learning.
No matter what my past negative experience is with Magnetar, I find his current design interesting and his goals fairly reasonable. So I stop worrying about the past, read, and think.
In my opinion, your posts add no value to the discussion. If you have a technical position that is counter to what he is presenting by all means share it and provide a technical rational. Do not state speculation as facts, provide a verbal arguement that convinces the reader of the correctness of your observation(s). After reading your posts above, and your referenced posts, I really did not find contributions just attacks. For me that reduces your credibility significantly. It would be much more effective if you provided something constructive in your posts that advances understanding of your point of view.
LineSource said:
I already had some Heils and like them a lot above 3k - To use them below 3K you should notch out the peak that is centered around 2.5k. The back wave behind these is pretty well damped with two 24" diameter bass traps on each side and acoustic foam.With a hard surface behind the speaker I'd try dampening the back wave but no need IMO with the way they're setup. The Heils do have a problem with vertical dispersion - it does however mate well with the big 10" MTM and covers the whole listening area in my room sitting or standing well when the speaker is tilted a little back like I have it. There is a front projector unit and coffee table in front of where we listen and having the directional character of the Heil helps reflections. The mids work fine closer to the baffle edge. I can't decide if I like them to the inside or outside though.
I agree with tryng to cover a wide range with a mid, however in an MTM you want to keep the driver spacing and crossover frequencies matched - The Heil requires 6" of vertical spacing and I'm using 10" mids -I have asked 4 people now to try and identify the crossover points and all have guessed around 100 for the bass and 3k for the highs - this tells me I have a wide range midrange character (good) - using 4th order electronic crossovers with adjustable Q's can give excellent seamless crossovers. It's really hard to say where these are crossed over by just listening - I image if these same 4 people that commented did it blindly without seeing the big speakers first they would have been all over the map.
The JBL 2123's are very good sounding linear drivers with excellent dynamics and low distortion- but because of their high efficiency and huge motors and low QTS they really aren't the best driver below 300 Hz (unless horn loaded) even in a tuned box. I can adjust the crossover point very easily by changing out some resistors. 330 and 1400 is the best compromise after trying maybe 10 different frequencies for both the mid and treble.
EC8010 said:
AJinFLA and Magnetar: Gentlemen, please calm down. I'm sure you are both very excited by your respective loudspeakers and think that they wipe the floor with the competition. Please explain why this is so without losing your dignity by including personal attacks. We have our eye on this thread...
No problem.
You can call me a Siegfried Linkwitz Basher basher. I'm ok with that. As long as the moderators don't think I have overstepped my bounds, that will be my position.
I find it difficult to formulate a comprehensive technical rebuttal to his design based on just his pictures. Perhaps you are ascertaining more info from them than I am.
The design itself looks reasonable (albeit extremly large), especially since its a near full ranged Open Baffle dipole - just like SL espouses. My favorites too.
Like I said
I meant that sincerely.
cheers,
AJ
i want to make a few comments about magnetar and the speakers as i am probably one of the few people that have heard the speakers in question as well as some of his previous work.
first of all, magnetar is a very serious hobbyist who invests alot of time, energy and presumably money into testing his designs assumptions by building speakers. he also has a pretty good ear, because by the time i hear one of his latest and greatist, i can be relatively confident that it is sounding pretty good. he is very generous in terms of "handing over the controls" to guests to allow them to check out their fave cd's. and finally, he is open to constructive criticism and doesn't get wierded out if you don't like a particular aspect of his speaker/design.
second, magnetar is shooting for output levels that most people don't associate with hi-fi. we are talking live amplified music levels. i haven't heard any of danley's, geddes gear or maybe even the old jbl large format monitors, but i would suspect that they would be vendors of systems with similar output capabilities. we are talking loud beyond thx, as in peaks in excess of 110db - 115db at the listening position.
on to the speakers- when listening to one of magnetar's systems, you can pretty much be assured that you can listen to your music at any conceivable volume from moderate, to loud into painfully loud if you are so inclined with minimal perceived distortion. initially, when i saw that the speakers were dipole, i was somewhat skeptical that the dipole bass output would be comparable to the rest of the mid to upper range. i knew the drivers were 21", but i figured they would not have enough xmas to sound right. well, the bass was simply superb. it was not evident to me at what frequency the mains crossed over to the subs. the bass came across as very articulate and non-resonant. i was listening to amon tobin's bricolage cd which contains alot of synthesized low freq energy, and while i was listening i kept thinking that it might contain the "brown note" (for those of you familiar with south park). during passages that contained low frequency sweeps, it felt as though each particular drop in hertz frequency was vibrating a different particular spot/slice of my body. it was probably a buildup of resonant energy in the couch i was sitting on, but it was a pretty interesting sensation, nonetheless. i have heard other of magnetar's systems that caused my glasses to vibrate on my nose during bass passages, but that bass did not seem as clean and precise as his current setup.
the mids and high end simply seemed clean and did not stand out in particular, with no easily identifiable crossover point between the jbl's and the heil. although there was a sense vertical directionality, the tweeter was at ear level and nothing seemed out of whack. i don't really have the subjective language to describe it. i could hear it, but it definitely was not bad and could have been having a positive contribution to the sound quality for all i know.
a good analogy for me for playing a cd on the system would be to driving a high hp, high performance car. when i had the volume control in my hand, i got a feeling like "this is incredible, i can take this system to any volume level i want and it is still going to sound good". whether it is more like a viper or a boxster, i don't know. in any event, i really liked the speakers. they would never fit in my listening room, but i was glad i had the opportunity to experience them at magnetar's house.
first of all, magnetar is a very serious hobbyist who invests alot of time, energy and presumably money into testing his designs assumptions by building speakers. he also has a pretty good ear, because by the time i hear one of his latest and greatist, i can be relatively confident that it is sounding pretty good. he is very generous in terms of "handing over the controls" to guests to allow them to check out their fave cd's. and finally, he is open to constructive criticism and doesn't get wierded out if you don't like a particular aspect of his speaker/design.
second, magnetar is shooting for output levels that most people don't associate with hi-fi. we are talking live amplified music levels. i haven't heard any of danley's, geddes gear or maybe even the old jbl large format monitors, but i would suspect that they would be vendors of systems with similar output capabilities. we are talking loud beyond thx, as in peaks in excess of 110db - 115db at the listening position.
on to the speakers- when listening to one of magnetar's systems, you can pretty much be assured that you can listen to your music at any conceivable volume from moderate, to loud into painfully loud if you are so inclined with minimal perceived distortion. initially, when i saw that the speakers were dipole, i was somewhat skeptical that the dipole bass output would be comparable to the rest of the mid to upper range. i knew the drivers were 21", but i figured they would not have enough xmas to sound right. well, the bass was simply superb. it was not evident to me at what frequency the mains crossed over to the subs. the bass came across as very articulate and non-resonant. i was listening to amon tobin's bricolage cd which contains alot of synthesized low freq energy, and while i was listening i kept thinking that it might contain the "brown note" (for those of you familiar with south park). during passages that contained low frequency sweeps, it felt as though each particular drop in hertz frequency was vibrating a different particular spot/slice of my body. it was probably a buildup of resonant energy in the couch i was sitting on, but it was a pretty interesting sensation, nonetheless. i have heard other of magnetar's systems that caused my glasses to vibrate on my nose during bass passages, but that bass did not seem as clean and precise as his current setup.
the mids and high end simply seemed clean and did not stand out in particular, with no easily identifiable crossover point between the jbl's and the heil. although there was a sense vertical directionality, the tweeter was at ear level and nothing seemed out of whack. i don't really have the subjective language to describe it. i could hear it, but it definitely was not bad and could have been having a positive contribution to the sound quality for all i know.
a good analogy for me for playing a cd on the system would be to driving a high hp, high performance car. when i had the volume control in my hand, i got a feeling like "this is incredible, i can take this system to any volume level i want and it is still going to sound good". whether it is more like a viper or a boxster, i don't know. in any event, i really liked the speakers. they would never fit in my listening room, but i was glad i had the opportunity to experience them at magnetar's house.
Hello , glad you made it over!
LOL - At the levels you had the system at my glass of beer was dancing on the table outside the house.
I agree, it's really clean, and the bass is really defined and powerful-
You should have been there later (about midnight) when Chad got in the cockpit!
He played some Michael Stearn, Rimsky-Korsakov: Dance of the Tumblers and Rice's 'Blowers Daughter' , Ray Brown 'super bass' (whew!) and some live Thin Lizzy - The Michael Stearns 'Lost World" was a true 'awakening' of the spirit -
We need to do it again!
LOL - At the levels you had the system at my glass of beer was dancing on the table outside the house.
I agree, it's really clean, and the bass is really defined and powerful-
You should have been there later (about midnight) when Chad got in the cockpit!
He played some Michael Stearn, Rimsky-Korsakov: Dance of the Tumblers and Rice's 'Blowers Daughter' , Ray Brown 'super bass' (whew!) and some live Thin Lizzy - The Michael Stearns 'Lost World" was a true 'awakening' of the spirit -
We need to do it again!
Im confused man, where exactly do you stand on this issue? Are you bipolar or something, You seem to bounce off walls back and forth between hating SL and loving magnetar and praising SL and mocking magnetar.
It would seem you like to be on the losing side of the argument just for the fun of arguing, might I suggest joining a debate team.
New Blasters!
Hey Magnetar,
Nice work! Too bad the bass drivers are so small. Probably have to sit closer, eh?
I still have my pair of 2123s from the tent sale. I may have to plank mount them with the Heils. Haven't run across the big Madisons for awhile...new distribution or something. Any other alternatives you've tried? I thought you were doing massed 10s above the bass horns.
AJ and others:
As far as Magnetar's ever changing agenda of speaker building goals and criteria - what else would you expect? He's built a dozen systems, and probably altered those dozen a dozen times. He's always changing and building, and I'm sure his expectations and assumptions change right along with it.
I heard one of his TAD-based horn systems some years ago, and one thing that has remained constant is the fact that Magnetar never does anything halfa**ed. He plunges straight in, and remains single-mindedly determined to bring about the best results he can, regardless of complexity or cost.
Near as I can tell, this is still about doing it yourself, not about talking a project to death, which seems to be the sole intent of many of these threads. So when I see something interesting and strongly designed, then I'm ready to celebrate.
Tim
Hey Magnetar,
Nice work! Too bad the bass drivers are so small. Probably have to sit closer, eh?
I still have my pair of 2123s from the tent sale. I may have to plank mount them with the Heils. Haven't run across the big Madisons for awhile...new distribution or something. Any other alternatives you've tried? I thought you were doing massed 10s above the bass horns.
AJ and others:
As far as Magnetar's ever changing agenda of speaker building goals and criteria - what else would you expect? He's built a dozen systems, and probably altered those dozen a dozen times. He's always changing and building, and I'm sure his expectations and assumptions change right along with it.
I heard one of his TAD-based horn systems some years ago, and one thing that has remained constant is the fact that Magnetar never does anything halfa**ed. He plunges straight in, and remains single-mindedly determined to bring about the best results he can, regardless of complexity or cost.
Near as I can tell, this is still about doing it yourself, not about talking a project to death, which seems to be the sole intent of many of these threads. So when I see something interesting and strongly designed, then I'm ready to celebrate.
Tim
Tim, in case you have't seen this....
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110435&perpage=50&pagenumber=1
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110435&perpage=50&pagenumber=1
Geez
Thanks Brett.
Completely faked out by the location of the thread without viewing the dates more closely.
How goes it?
Magnetar,
Found the more recent thread and am now almost up to speed, if that is possible.
I still have the Audax Pro170s too (4). Just need the bass drivers. Considering one of the Warrior types if still cheap and readily available
Madison shows up, but no 21s, and no Steelsound who used to internet market the whole product line.
Rooted for the tribe - coach from FW. Good things happening there.
Maybe next year.
I still like the idea of a serious OB without the shortcomings of EQ and other manipulations to stretch the useable bandwidth.
Tim
Thanks Brett.
Completely faked out by the location of the thread without viewing the dates more closely.
How goes it?
Magnetar,
Found the more recent thread and am now almost up to speed, if that is possible.
I still have the Audax Pro170s too (4). Just need the bass drivers. Considering one of the Warrior types if still cheap and readily available
Madison shows up, but no 21s, and no Steelsound who used to internet market the whole product line.
Rooted for the tribe - coach from FW. Good things happening there.
Maybe next year.
I still like the idea of a serious OB without the shortcomings of EQ and other manipulations to stretch the useable bandwidth.
Tim
go big or go home, right?
I'm curious if the proximity to side walls is negatively affecting your dipolar response.
I'm curious if the proximity to side walls is negatively affecting your dipolar response.
mini madness?
Hi Mike,
WOW! I _really_ like this system. It's a real pity that the Madison drivers are unobtainium now.
I'm considering a scaled down version with the pr170m0/atp80 combo that I have been enjoying for several years now (thanks for that gem) and a pair of 18" in a WMTMW.
The 18's Im considering are this beyma.
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma cm18G-1.htm
or this Selenium
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-394
If I'm understanding you the Beyma has OK QTS at 0.59 but it's 96 DB 1/1. The Selenium is 98 DB 1/1 but the QTS is low at 0.43. Price wise it's a wash between them, both are to much. LOL
Anyway, thank you for sharing the madness, I can't even quess how many hours of musical enjoyment I've had because of your efforts. I find the simple (when some one shows you LOL) pr170m0/atp80 combo is so good that I just can't listen to many other speakers now.
Regards
Hi Mike,
WOW! I _really_ like this system. It's a real pity that the Madison drivers are unobtainium now.
I'm considering a scaled down version with the pr170m0/atp80 combo that I have been enjoying for several years now (thanks for that gem) and a pair of 18" in a WMTMW.
The 18's Im considering are this beyma.
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma cm18G-1.htm
or this Selenium
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-394
If I'm understanding you the Beyma has OK QTS at 0.59 but it's 96 DB 1/1. The Selenium is 98 DB 1/1 but the QTS is low at 0.43. Price wise it's a wash between them, both are to much. LOL
Anyway, thank you for sharing the madness, I can't even quess how many hours of musical enjoyment I've had because of your efforts. I find the simple (when some one shows you LOL) pr170m0/atp80 combo is so good that I just can't listen to many other speakers now.
Regards
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